Tesla vs Porsche...

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk


The wonderful, crazy expensive Taycan is simply evidence of Elon Musk's vision and leadership.
He has changed the world, while as others have pointed out, having zero experience building cars.
Junk parts and all.



More like the Taycan and Tesla are evidence of domestic and international public policy decisions rather than the satisfaction of some untapped demand in a free market. Kind of like the updated "NetZero" building code in California.


Have you seen the report where the DOJ is opening an anti-trust inquiry into the FE/Emissions agreement Honda, BMW et al made with CARB?

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Honestly, I think Tesla would get a better break from perception if Tesla had a better leader. I was watching about how Elon Musk believes that overpopulation is not a concern and that we need as many warm bodies as possible to take care of our aging population.

I had to rub the bridge of my nose just to get through the video. He was joined in his opinion by another wealthy Space Case; Jack Ma of Alibaba.

But this is of course a double edged sword. There are those who absolutely love Musk and would buy a lit stick of dynamite from him in the middle of a gasoline refinery.


As much as I admire Musks intellect, I'm not sure I'd like him as a guy at a campfire.

He is easy to dislike on many levels.
He didnt do the company justice the way he lead the investors meetings and shot off his mouth -
He fell prey to the young guy ego thing a more mature leader wouldnt.

I really like seeing an American manufacturing on top of at least one segment - and Tesla is.


UD

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by KrisZ


The body panel fitment is bad though. I see many Teslas on my daily commute and by now I can easily spot the bad alignment of the bright trim from one panel to the next. Up close, many look like they were in an accident, with uneven gaps on the hood or trunk.
But that doesn't mean the whole car is junk.



tesla has acknowledged this and claims they've addressed the issue but I havent seen any munro level analysis confirming that.

Fit of panels does not equal functionality - The ridgeline is simply the best all-around vehicle I've ever owned..
I never imaged Id prefer to drive a midsized truck on a road trip vs a lexus SUV.

Driver assistance tech makes a notable difference on an 8 hour road trip I take 4 times a month.

Never thought Id say that either.



UD

 

[JeffKeryk]

Elon Musk risked his entire PayPal fortune on Tesla. He takes risks beyond comprehension; beyond sense.
Without a leader like that, there is no Tesla, SpaceX, etc.
A true visionary.
But those darn panels and junk cars...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Honestly, I think Tesla would get a better break from perception if Tesla had a better leader. I was watching about how Elon Musk believes that overpopulation is not a concern and that we need as many warm bodies as possible to take care of our aging population.

I had to rub the bridge of my nose just to get through the video. He was joined in his opinion by another wealthy Space Case; Jack Ma of Alibaba.

But this is of course a double edged sword. There are those who absolutely love Musk and would buy a lit stick of dynamite from him in the middle of a gasoline refinery.


As much as I admire Musks intellect, I'm not sure I'd like him as a guy at a campfire.

He is easy to dislike on many levels.
He didnt do the company justice the way he lead the investors meetings and shot off his mouth -
He fell prey to the young guy ego thing a more mature leader wouldnt.

I really like seeing an American manufacturing on top of at least one segment - and Tesla is.


UD


IMO people would give him a break if they knew that he suffers from a low grade of autism. It's that autism that has helped him become what he is today.

 

[4WD]

Grasshopper here … begging forgiveness on behalf of the objective people who notice fit and finish not becoming of a vehicle in that price range …

 

[Y_K]

0 to 60 mph numbers: do bo6h of them overheat after the feat and have to slow down to cool off? Or just the Tesla?
The charging networks: there is this thing around the corner when the protocols and plugs have to be made compatible, and I suspect EU will do this first - you won't be able to sell anything unless it adheres to the standard.
So the other guys can benefit from the Tesla's charging network already in place. Sorry, if it is already the case - in this case the argument that VAG has no network has no value.
35k for Tesla 3: has anyone seen it in the wild?

Just look at Microsoft and Intel: it's not the first echelone that succedds, it's a cheaper and well marketed mediocrity that beats far superior design and execution that makes a market winner.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Grasshopper here … begging forgiveness on behalf of the objective people who notice fit and finish not becoming of a vehicle in that price range …



It's funny; there are reports of poor build quality and other issues. Especially paint scratches. Some owners are refusing to accept delivery.
Our car is perfect. For what I paid I looked the car over closely, specifically panel gap alignment, before signing off.
The car guys in my life examine the car 1st thing, walking around the car, checking detail.
One has done a couple of high end restorations; the jewel being a 1962 Corvette Fuelie. Big bicks restoration, right down to the numbers on the FI, engine, etc.
I had my wife study the interior; she has that eye for detail.
Everyone has commented on the excellent build quality. Musta been built on a Wednesday...
I've had 4 Corvettes; I understand mass produced cars.

All good. The wonder is in the driving... That instant electro-magnetic PULL.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by Y_K
0 to 60 mph numbers: do bo6h of them overheat after the feat and have to slow down to cool off? Or just the Tesla?
The charging networks: there is this thing around the corner when the protocols and plugs have to be made compatible, and I suspect EU will do this first - you won't be able to sell anything unless it adheres to the standard.
So the other guys can benefit from the Tesla's charging network already in place. Sorry, if it is already the case - in this case the argument that VAG has no network has no value.
35k for Tesla 3: has anyone seen it in the wild?

Just look at Microsoft and Intel: it's not the first echelone that succedds, it's a cheaper and well marketed mediocrity that beats far superior design and execution that makes a market winner.


The other guys don't get to use Teslas charger network.

The 35K tesla is orderable - its 32K if you factor in savings and 38K if you dont. Pretty close the promise.

I'm just as eager to see that 59K corvette C8 that will never exist. Like the base price C7 I could never find before it.......

No one talks about other vehicles coming in WAAAY over sticker like demons, hellcats, Zr-1 camaros etc....



UD

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


IMO people would give him a break if they knew that he suffers from a low grade of autism. It's that autism that has helped him become what he is today.


I have no problem with Autism, if I recall gates has some mild autism or asperbergs....

The last 2 quarters his behavior has been way better - probably because he is finally listening to guys like Larry Ellison on how to handle himself.

Young super successful guys dont understand when their personal style and braggadocio need to end - and they need to become all business.

AND answer questions you may not necessarily want to - you should not tell an analyst his question is boring and refuse to answer it - thats simply impolite

He admitted as much and apologized after the fact.

Elon surrounds himself with sycophants that don't often give him the best advice - hes learning and getting better after a long time.




UD

 

[4WD]

Yep … many industries have been all electric for years … instant torque and motor commonality regardless of power source to the drive motors

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Folks, the numbers don't lie.
The Model 3 is killing it. No Beemer sells even what, 1/3 as many cars?
Must be those junk body panels...
It is simply a great car. Ask an owner.

Just wait until the Y is released.
Tesla just might have 2 of its 4 cars in the top 30 sold vehicles including trucks.
The other S and X are out of the reach of most.
Those darn panels!


Sales

Wow! You're right. The CX5 is 200% as desirable, roughly!
#TheNumbersDontLie

 

[JeffKeryk]

Lotsa good posts; I would like to thank everyone.
The Model S pushed the business hard into building some competition.
Porsche, in the Taycan, has stepped up in a big, beautiful way.
Also, numbers aren't the whole story. As a track car, I can only expect the Taycan to be blistering fast; it's a Porsche.

There is room for more of these cars; it only makes for a better product for we consumers.
Well, some consumers, somewhere. I will let you know if I see one running around Palo Alto. Probably Elon...
Things will trickle down to us; look at the Model 3. So much tech. Simply fantastic.

The Porsche needs a charging network and needs to up their game on range.
I believe Musk allows other cars to use the Supercharger network; I am not sure why Porsche chose not to do so. I could be wrong.
Coming to market many development years later than the Tesla, with their incomparable knowledge and that price, they shoulda hit the 400 mile mark. They fell short.
But it is simply incredible that they can build a turbo car that doesn't need exhaust... Kidding!

Kudos to the Porsche Taycan!

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Honestly, I think Tesla would get a better break from perception if Tesla had a better leader. I was watching about how Elon Musk believes that overpopulation is not a concern and that we need as many warm bodies as possible to take care of our aging population.

I had to rub the bridge of my nose just to get through the video. He was joined in his opinion by another wealthy Space Case; Jack Ma of Alibaba.

But this is of course a double edged sword. There are those who absolutely love Musk and would buy a lit stick of dynamite from him in the middle of a gasoline refinery.


As much as I admire Musks intellect, I'm not sure I'd like him as a guy at a campfire.

He is easy to dislike on many levels.
He didnt do the company justice the way he lead the investors meetings and shot off his mouth -
He fell prey to the young guy ego thing a more mature leader wouldnt.

I really like seeing an American manufacturing on top of at least one segment - and Tesla is.


UD

Never liked him. Guy is a **** by all accounts in the board room. Losing his temper, pushing employees to do unethical things (the wal-mart electric tape on the cables to meet deadline when they couldn't get proper wrapped stuff, is an example, lol!)
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Elon Musk risked his entire PayPal fortune on Tesla. He takes risks beyond comprehension; beyond sense.
Without a leader like that, there is no Tesla, SpaceX, etc.
A true visionary.
But those darn panels and junk cars...

Tesla isn't a risk, it's a black hole for his other capital gains.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Elon Musk risked his entire PayPal fortune on Tesla. He takes risks beyond comprehension; beyond sense.
Without a leader like that, there is no Tesla, SpaceX, etc.
A true visionary.
But those darn panels and junk cars...


I'm just going to say that is a simplification of events, with plenty of plot holes.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by Ws6

Never liked him. Guy is a **** by all accounts in the board room. Losing his temper, pushing employees to do unethical things (the wal-mart electric tape on the cables to meet deadline when they couldn't get proper wrapped stuff, is an example, lol!)

Elon Musk risked his entire PayPal fortune on Tesla. He takes risks beyond comprehension; beyond sense.


Not sure the duct tape thing happened. Prob is a tool.
For sure he runs a tough ship - but who else is building factories in America these days?

the guy at VW that signed off on cheating isnt a tool?
Look at what they cost the shareholders.
You see the VW group and its absolute cheating lies as fine as ethical?

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have to wonder if the people who do not understand (like?) Elon have ever been in a major corporate boardroom.
I can tell you, a Silicon Valley boardroom is not a feel-good place.
It is a place where decisions are made. I was a bit part in a $300M decision; scared me xxxx-less. The C levels didn't even blink.
Kinda like making sausage...

Playing it safe is for established mature companies in established mature markets.
Tesla plays in neither.
Make it up as you go... Decisions. Learning through failure is the norm, so you learn to fail fast.
Go big or go home.
No risk no reward.

Musk has changed the world.
If you disagree perhaps you just don't understand the facts that are staring you in the face.
I can tell you, these guys, while they may become billionaires, don't do it for the $$.
It's just who they are.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6

Never liked him. Guy is a **** by all accounts in the board room. Losing his temper, pushing employees to do unethical things (the wal-mart electric tape on the cables to meet deadline when they couldn't get proper wrapped stuff, is an example, lol!)

Elon Musk risked his entire PayPal fortune on Tesla. He takes risks beyond comprehension; beyond sense.


Not sure the duct tape thing happened. Prob is a tool.
For sure he runs a tough ship - but who else is building factories in America these days?

the guy at VW that signed off on cheating isnt a tool?
Look at what they cost the shareholders.
You see the VW group and its absolute cheating lies as fine as ethical?


VW didnt compromise consumer safety. It was still a tool move though. I wont buy a VW either.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
I have to wonder if the people who do not understand (like?) Elon have ever been in a major corporate boardroom.
I can tell you, a Silicon Valley boardroom is not a feel-good place.
It is a place where decisions are made. I was a bit part in a $300M decision; scared me xxxx-less. The C levels didn't even blink.
Kinda like making sausage...

Playing it safe is for established mature companies in established mature markets.
Tesla plays (and is winning) in neither.
Go big or go home.
No risk no reward.

Musk has changed the world.
If you disagree perhaps you just don't understand the facts that are staring you in the face.
I can tell you, these guys, while they may become billionaires, don't do it for the $$.
It's just who they are.

Not corporate, no, but I've seen my share of life and death decisions, many made in futility. A few hundred million dollars vs a mother screaming and crying over her dead child...I guess it depends on what stresses you, and which one you find more moving. I can tell you that most corporate types I've met absolutely wither over shot up and/or otherwise dying people, though. So maybe it's a different stress.

All that aside, Elon can change the world all he wants. I'll buy some other EV than a Tesla, when the time comes. I'll happily credit Elon for creating the opportunity, for sure, and I get what you're saying. I still dont want a Tesla or think well of them as a company.

 

[DoubleWasp]

That's a very complex way of stating "Ends justifies the means".

We can hash over the successes of the corporate attitude, but I think you'd be unhappy when I brought up its failures.

Same goes for "great visionaries".

The long story made short is that success and influence are no excuse. I know and have known a lot of successful people who have this attitude. It's no less disgusting coming from them than anyone else.