Tesla fire closes down highway for 3 hours.

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alarmguy

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Hey,
Not intended to start wild debate. I thought an interesting read of what the fire departments had to do to put it out.
We have to admit it takes far more resources at the same time the article (I'm not looking to verify stats gasoline fires are more common but a bear to get a lithium fire out.
There are many more gasoline vehicles on the road and greatly older too.

Im wondering, thinking, and expecting that I am not so sure if ever EV's get to a market saturation of lets say 25% vehicles on the road will these incidents greatly multiply?
I mean, is there really a way to prevent a damaged battery, either by getting dented or salt from the roadway makes it into a bad seal 100% secure. People damage their cars all the time.

Is the average American going to run and have their battery inspected every time they hit a curb, object in the road or drive down a road or through salt water, even fresh water?
So what will happen when there are 70+ million EV's out of 285 million vehicles on the road?

Maybe some type of self extinguish system to stop thermal runaway?

www.foxbusiness.com

Tesla battery catches fire in Illinois, shutting down highway for nearly 3 hours: Report

Bethalto, Illinois fire crews responded to Route 255 on Sunday afternoon after a Tesla battery reportedly caught fire and posed potential issues with hazardous materials.
www.foxbusiness.com www.foxbusiness.com
 
I don't know much about it, but why was so much water needed?

From what I have read, giant fire blankets that are draped over the car are the much better solution to put out these EV fires.

Like I said though, I really don't know much about it. Perhaps it was too hot for the fire fighters to get close enough to try this method, or maybe they didn't have any of these blankets nearby.
 
AZjeff said:
EV fire blankets start at $1500 it looks like and how many fire departments have one right now?
Click to expand...
Locally, there have been a few of these. Most of the Fire Departments have these blankets and put them over the cars and then tow them to a "safer" location (if need be).
It's going to get real interesting soon as new multi-family developments must have a certain percentage of their parking with EV chargers, which will encourage their use (and also their fires).
 
(edit - MOD)

$1500 for a blanket that can be deployed by a handful of guys seems like a bargain compared to who knows how many fire fighters and fire trucks spraying water on it for who knows how many hours.

Not to mention the insurance co would most likely be paying for it anyways. Who cares if it's reusable or not?

If these blankets are really available for so cheap, and if they work, any fire department who doesn't have at least a few of them isn't very smart.

Like I said, I really don't know how well one if these blankets would have worked in this situation.

It just makes me wonder when I hear someone say it takes so many thousands of gallons of water to put out an EV fire. I'm like "no it doesn't, it shouldn't take any water". Especially if water is pretty much useless on these types of fires anyways.
 
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SevenBizzos said:
Locally, there have been a few of these. Most of the Fire Departments have these blankets and put them over the cars and then tow them to a "safer" location (if need be).
It's going to get real interesting soon as new multi-family developments must have a certain percentage of their parking with EV chargers, which will encourage their use (and also their fires).
Click to expand...
Yep. Most municipalities are requiring a percentage of EV spots and a greater percentage of EV-Ready spots even though they likely don’t have enough power to actually make them all functional.

They’ve also changed building code to require sprinklers in much smaller new parking garages now which is directly related to EVs and the amount of plastic in newer vehicles in general.
 
captainbeandip said:
$1500 for a blanket that can be deployed by a handful of guys seems like a bargain compared to who knows how many fire fighters and fire trucks spraying water on it for who knows how many hours.

Not to mention the insurance co would most likely be paying for it anyways. Who cares if it's reusable or not?

If these blankets are really available for so cheap, and if they work, any fire department who doesn't have at least a few of them isn't very smart.

Like I said, I really don't know how well one if these blankets would have worked in this situation.

It just makes me wonder when I hear someone say it takes so many thousands of gallons of water to put out an EV fire. I'm like "no it doesn't, it shouldn't take any water". Especially if water is pretty much useless on these types of fires anyways.
Click to expand...
We end up having 5 or 6 stations respond to a minor car accident or a single car fire here. Those fire fighters have to keep the stats up to say they responded to X number of calls each year. I’m sure that costs more than the $1,500 blanket.
 
bullwinkle said:
I thought water was the LAST thing you wanted near nor on lithium? Not sure there’s anything to be done for a battery fire than to let it burn itself out?
Click to expand...
Li-ion batteries are NOT Lithium metal fires. The rate of cell to cell propagation, and the number of cells, means this can take a LONG time…

captainbeandip said:
I don't know much about it, but why was so much water needed?

From what I have read, giant fire blankets that are draped over the car are the much better solution to put out these EV fires.

Like I said though, I really don't know much about it. Perhaps it was too hot for the fire fighters to get close enough to try this method, or maybe they didn't have any of these blankets nearby.
Click to expand...

The batteries are packaged very tightly, and enclosed in a clamshell type module.

The only way to put out a Li-ion event is to remove latent heat. Yet in these close packed designs, everything is in close contact, it’s hard to get anything in or out, and heat is transferring celll to cell. The separator typically melts at 110-120C. Once thst happens, you have an internal short circuit, and a flammable organic electrolyte, and flammable carbon powder. Oh, and depending upon the cathode chemistry, a material that will self-decompose and self- generate oxygen.

You have to get the heat out. Smothering it doesn’t solve the cell to cell propagation,mand even if the cathode decomposition is not stoichiometric oxygen, it’s still there. It’s just contained and the rest of the car potentially won’t start on fire from the heat. The only way to get The heat out is liquid cooling. Water, dielectric fluids, etc.
 
If we are going to have a lot of EVs then we are going to need a lot of these blankets. Who makes them. Investment opportunity?
 
dubber09 said:
Sounds like matter of time before insurance on Tesla and other EVs is gonna steeply increase.
Click to expand...
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

These things are getting a LOT of attention regarding fires lately. When they burn, they burn ferociously, and for a long time. And as was mentioned, they are extremely difficult to put out. And the car is obviously totalled after the fact.

Not to mention the house, if it happens in a residential garage. This is going to cause insurance premiums to skyrocket on these things, along with ICE vehicles as well. Insurance premiums for both auto and home coverage have already gone up as much as 20% in many areas of the country.

Add in these fireworks, and they're going to go up even more. Look at what has happened to homeowners insurance in the state of Florida. In many parts of the state people are selling and moving because they can no longer afford it.

Others are avoiding Florida all together, and moving elsewhere. Florida was once considered to be a reasonable cost retirement mecca. No more. Housing and insurance costs are in the stratosphere. And there is no end in sight.

All of these EV blazes are going to add to it even more. Today owning a EV and living in Florida is most definitely an expensive proposition.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/car-insurance-rates-inflation-costs/

www.kiplinger.com

Two Home Insurers Eye Rate Hikes Of More Than 50% In Florida

Home insurance costs are rising in Florida and other states due to severe weather, higher repair costs and elevated reinsurance premiums, Allstate says.
www.kiplinger.com www.kiplinger.com
 
dubber09 said:
Sounds like matter of time before insurance on Tesla and other EVs is gonna steeply increase.
Click to expand...
If statistics and payouts support it yes. Otherwise an occasional dramatic story is just that. A local 4 lane highway was shut down similar time due to fatality with ICE vehicles. No major reporting , why not interesting and normal.

Highway shutdowns happen….
 
I wonder if GM's Ultium modular battery pack setup will (or could be configured to) provide sufficient fire protection between modules to prevent a catastrophic vehicle fire.

Similarly, a proposed modular EV battery pack made for aircraft is configured with what looks to be an exhaust manifold and exhaust pipes, in case of a pack fire. The idea being to contain the fire inside the module, and discharge the combustion overboard through the plumbing. A check valve prevents the fire from reaching other packs.

I can imagine flying along, fat, dumb and happy, with a series of exhaust stacks protruding from the cowl, when all of a sudden, a battery pack fire starts and smoke pours out of one pipe....

chevrolet-blazer-ev-build-1.jpg

tj5_5979_1.jpg
 
JHZR2 said:
Li-ion batteries are NOT Lithium metal fires. The rate of cell to cell propagation, and the number of cells, means this can take a LONG time…



The batteries are packaged very tightly, and enclosed in a clamshell type module.

The only way to put out a Li-ion event is to remove latent heat. Yet in these close packed designs, everything is in close contact, it’s hard to get anything in or out, and heat is transferring celll to cell. The separator typically melts at 110-120C. Once thst happens, you have an internal short circuit, and a flammable organic electrolyte, and flammable carbon powder. Oh, and depending upon the cathode chemistry, a material that will self-decompose and self- generate oxygen.

You have to get the heat out. Smothering it doesn’t solve the cell to cell propagation,mand even if the cathode decomposition is not stoichiometric oxygen, it’s still there. It’s just contained and the rest of the car potentially won’t start on fire from the heat. The only way to get The heat out is liquid cooling. Water, dielectric fluids, etc.
Click to expand...

I suspect fire blankets mentioned in here are not effective and potentially makes things far worse.
Correct, water is used to cool the batteries and get the thermal runaway under control.

I would think a blanket would aid the fire by trapping heat and helping thermal runaway.
From what I understand burning lithium batteries produces its own oxygen to burn and you can’t starve it with a blanket
 
andrew_j said:
If statistics and payouts support it yes. Otherwise an occasional dramatic story is just that. A local 4 lane highway was shut down similar time due to fatality with ICE vehicles. No major reporting , why not interesting and normal.

Highway shutdowns happen….
Click to expand...
Yes but this is a new reason and cause for even more shut downs, correct?
Which brings me back to the OP will this greatly increase since still right now there is an insignificant amount of EVs on the road.
I think a valid question but maybe it won’t be an issue when we have another 70 million on the road? That is only 25% of gasoline vehicles.

That seems like a fair amount of vehicles that can be driving around with compromised batteries that have been damaged in some way that the owner hasn’t thought to have checked out. I would suggest many of those 70 million would shy away from getting it checked as the cost exposure can be enormous if a dealer tells the owner the battery needs to be changed.
Human nature would be not to bring the car in and have the possibility of somebody telling them a huge repair bill. Huge repair bill is an understatement btw.
 
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alarmguy said:
Maybe some type of self extinguish system to stop thermal runaway?
Click to expand...
I think we can agree that Thermal Runaway is a legitimate issue with EV's. This isn't entirely related to your original post, but there is a growing concern around EV's being charged in parking garages and the lack of adequate sprinkler protection in these areas. I think current NFPA13 code calls for a OHG2 sprinkler system in parking garages without EV charging. Some municipalities have gone as far as requiring an Extra Hazard Group II (EHG2) system in these areas.

4.29 Sprinkler Protection Requirements for Parking Spaces Associated With Electric Vehicles Charging Stations | SF Fire Website

sf-fire.org sf-fire.org
 
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