Subaru Crosstrek
- Thread starter Al
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Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by bobdoo
Originally Posted by fdcg27
...
vince myself that I'd bought the superior CUV.
Al? Is that you?
lol-no. I am somewhat of a Subaru fanboy bc. I have had 3. a '78, 08, and 18. Subaru has pioneered AWD, Boxer engines, Safety, and turboed engines. Quite a innovative track record for a relatively small company. They have been rewarded by generally being the #1 in vehicle company growth over the last 20 years.
But honestly. ..If others love their vehicles good for them. I am happy Subaru is not a whole lot more popular. They would become less hungry and less successful. I encourage others to buy inferior vehicles. j/k
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
Originally Posted by bobdoo
Originally Posted by fdcg27
...
vince myself that I'd bought the superior CUV.
Al? Is that you?
lol-no. I am somewhat of a Subaru fanboy bc. I have had 3. a '78, 08, and 18. Subaru has pioneered AWD, Boxer engines, Safety, and turboed engines. Quite a innovative track record for a relatively small company. They have been rewarded by generally being the #1 in vehicle company growth over the last 20 years.
But honestly. ..If others love their vehicles good for them. I am happy Subaru is not a whole lot more popular. They would become less hungry and less successful. I encourage others to buy inferior vehicles. j/k
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
Last edited:
Originally Posted by edyvw
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by edyvw
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
You are contradicting yourself:
Subaru pioneered boxer:
Now it is: it did not invent boxer. What is then definition of pioneering? Subaru did not bring boxer to perfection, as Porsche has MUCH better boxer engines and MUCH, MUCH more experience in that. Alfa Romeo brought boxer engine to perfection as in 1996 average Alfa did not need head gasket as part of regular maintenance like Subaru. So it took Subaru, what? 20 years to come where Alfa Romeo was in 1996?
What Subaru AWD speaks for itself? Audi was blasting it long before Subaru did.
Turbo since 1983? Audi had AWD and Turbo in line constantly since 1980, while turbo engines were present among other manufacturers even before, with BMW having turbo engine in 1973. Lancia Integrale? Subaru owners should stand up and salute every time Lancia Integrale name is mentioned. So you cherry picked Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler? What is your argument here? Subaru pioneered turbo among Subaru, GM, Ford and Chrysler?
Subaru did first crash test in japan? Japan is the world?
Pioneering among: Subaru, GM, Chevrolet and Chrysler.
One cannot make this stuff up.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
You are contradicting yourself:
Subaru pioneered boxer:
Now it is: it did not invent boxer. What is then definition of pioneering? Subaru did not bring boxer to perfection, as Porsche has MUCH better boxer engines and MUCH, MUCH more experience in that. Alfa Romeo brought boxer engine to perfection as in 1996 average Alfa did not need head gasket as part of regular maintenance like Subaru. So it took Subaru, what? 20 years to come where Alfa Romeo was in 1996?
What Subaru AWD speaks for itself? Audi was blasting it long before Subaru did.
Turbo since 1983? Audi had AWD and Turbo in line constantly since 1980, while turbo engines were present among other manufacturers even before, with BMW having turbo engine in 1973. Lancia Integrale? Subaru owners should stand up and salute every time Lancia Integrale name is mentioned. So you cherry picked Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler? What is your argument here? Subaru pioneered turbo among Subaru, GM, Ford and Chrysler?
Subaru did first crash test in japan? Japan is the world?
Pioneering among: Subaru, GM, Chevrolet and Chrysler.
One cannot make this stuff up.
Last edited:
I think the whole "safety thing" and Subaru is marketing genius (and I'm not alone--this is often used as a case study of marketing success among the Madison Ave. crowd). I'm not saying that there cars are unsafe by any means, but let's be real: they passed the same test in 2013 as the Mitsubishi Outlander. Among their storied safety innovations is "Research into the use of high-tensile materials for car frames"... They have 4 of the top 15 IHSS safety picks--but so does Hyundai.. It's not like these guys invented the 3-point seat belt. Of course, they've also been falsifying safety data for 20 years, which is a bit of a legacy of its own: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201809290033.html
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states. They had to figure out a way to market vehicles outside of the snowbelt, PNW and Colorado. The "Love" and "Safety" campaigns did the trick. Kudos to them.
Not trying to be anti-Subaru here. I think they make some nice cars, and if the Impreza was a little bigger in the boot and had taller gearing with the MT, I'd have likely ended up with one. As is, the Alltrack ticked more boxes for me. Still, I think it's worth looking at varying claims objectively and trying to get past the marketing speak.
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states. They had to figure out a way to market vehicles outside of the snowbelt, PNW and Colorado. The "Love" and "Safety" campaigns did the trick. Kudos to them.
Not trying to be anti-Subaru here. I think they make some nice cars, and if the Impreza was a little bigger in the boot and had taller gearing with the MT, I'd have likely ended up with one. As is, the Alltrack ticked more boxes for me. Still, I think it's worth looking at varying claims objectively and trying to get past the marketing speak.
EDW.you are playing with words. No other company..no matter how big has contributed, developed, pioneered, made mainstream (pick a word you like) in areas of Vehicle safety, boxer engine and AWD.
And again..how did the Big 3 do with early years Turbo.
I'm done..thanks for the discussion.
And again..how did the Big 3 do with early years Turbo.
I'm done..thanks for the discussion.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Al
EDW.you are playing with words. No other company..no matter how big has contributed, developed, pioneered, made mainstream (pick a word you like) in areas of Vehicle safety, boxer engine and AWD.
And again..how did the Big 3 do with early years Turbo.
I'm done..thanks for the discussion.
you can be done with the discussion, but the above simply isn't true. Volvo certainly did more in the way of both safety than any other manufacturer--by several orders of magnitude. Again, "safety" is a marketing convention of Subaru--and clearly a successful one.
They definitely popularized AWD in passenger cars. Boxer engines? Subaru is definitely the prominent adherent these days, for good or bad.
EDW.you are playing with words. No other company..no matter how big has contributed, developed, pioneered, made mainstream (pick a word you like) in areas of Vehicle safety, boxer engine and AWD.
And again..how did the Big 3 do with early years Turbo.
I'm done..thanks for the discussion.
you can be done with the discussion, but the above simply isn't true. Volvo certainly did more in the way of both safety than any other manufacturer--by several orders of magnitude. Again, "safety" is a marketing convention of Subaru--and clearly a successful one.
They definitely popularized AWD in passenger cars. Boxer engines? Subaru is definitely the prominent adherent these days, for good or bad.
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted by JOD
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states.
The Subaru BRZ is rear wheel drive.
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states.
The Subaru BRZ is rear wheel drive.
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by JOD
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states.
The Subaru BRZ is rear wheel drive.
That is miscarriage between Toyota and Subaru. Reason why Toyota did not want Subaru on new Supra, per Toyota engineers, is that Subaru was not able to deliver during development of BRZ and 86.
Originally Posted by JOD
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states.
The Subaru BRZ is rear wheel drive.
That is miscarriage between Toyota and Subaru. Reason why Toyota did not want Subaru on new Supra, per Toyota engineers, is that Subaru was not able to deliver during development of BRZ and 86.
Originally Posted by JOD
I think the whole "safety thing" and Subaru is marketing genius (and I'm not alone--this is often used as a case study of marketing success among the Madison Ave. crowd). I'm not saying that there cars are unsafe by any means, but let's be real: they passed the same test in 2013 as the Mitsubishi Outlander. Among their storied safety innovations is "Research into the use of high-tensile materials for car frames"... They have 4 of the top 15 IHSS safety picks--but so does Hyundai.. It's not like these guys invented the 3-point seat belt. Of course, they've also been falsifying safety data for 20 years, which is a bit of a legacy of its own: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201809290033.html
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states. They had to figure out a way to market vehicles outside of the snowbelt, PNW and Colorado. The "Love" and "Safety" campaigns did the trick. Kudos to them.
Not trying to be anti-Subaru here. I think they make some nice cars, and if the Impreza was a little bigger in the boot and had taller gearing with the MT, I'd have likely ended up with one. As is, the Alltrack ticked more boxes for me. Still, I think it's worth looking at varying claims objectively and trying to get past the marketing speak.
When Subaru was making truly unique cars, in 90's and beginning of 200's, they almost went bankrupt. A. They were OK cars, but reliability and some major engineering flaws on engines were not appealing to big crowd. B. Their service network is abysmal outside some countries, specifically EU that has 510 million people.
Marriage with Toyota showed them a way, basically Toyota taking over marketing and saying: let's compete who make more boring car, that sells.
Look their commercials? Particularly one with father driving, mom in passenger seat and kids behind. What does it say? Truck is on the street, you do not see it (average Subaru driver is becoming actually worse than average Toyota driver, thing that was very hard to achieve) and slam into it. If you had Subaru that would not happen. What would not happen? You, father, a driver, looking your kids dying in miserable death.
That is all they campaign on. Then there is all AWD thing. Of course they do not say that they will provide vehicles with mediocre tires and even worse performance (I recently drove colleagues Imprezza. I though I can outrun that car on foot). So people buy them thinking they solved their snow and ice problems. Here in CO they purposely market on billboards: taking on Colorado blizzard. Forget that most cars in a ditch during snow storms and slick roads, are, well, Subaru's. Why? Because average Subaru equals 2/32 tread on mediocre all seasons. Because, it is Subaru, we told you AWD. But we did not tell you that no one died because they were not moving forward fast enough, but because they could not stop fast enough.
And their fear based marketing and marketing with dogs and college kids is working. This is country that has doomsday people, people who ask on neighborhood page, 4 days after snow storm how are the roads outside because apparently they did not get out of the house. Toyota mastered that marketing, Subaru just added AWD and safety (tech that was invented by other companies, mostly high end companies and it trickled down).
I think the whole "safety thing" and Subaru is marketing genius (and I'm not alone--this is often used as a case study of marketing success among the Madison Ave. crowd). I'm not saying that there cars are unsafe by any means, but let's be real: they passed the same test in 2013 as the Mitsubishi Outlander. Among their storied safety innovations is "Research into the use of high-tensile materials for car frames"... They have 4 of the top 15 IHSS safety picks--but so does Hyundai.. It's not like these guys invented the 3-point seat belt. Of course, they've also been falsifying safety data for 20 years, which is a bit of a legacy of its own: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201809290033.html
They're a company with nothing but full-time AWD vehicles, which frankly don't make much sense for most warm-weather states. They had to figure out a way to market vehicles outside of the snowbelt, PNW and Colorado. The "Love" and "Safety" campaigns did the trick. Kudos to them.
Not trying to be anti-Subaru here. I think they make some nice cars, and if the Impreza was a little bigger in the boot and had taller gearing with the MT, I'd have likely ended up with one. As is, the Alltrack ticked more boxes for me. Still, I think it's worth looking at varying claims objectively and trying to get past the marketing speak.
When Subaru was making truly unique cars, in 90's and beginning of 200's, they almost went bankrupt. A. They were OK cars, but reliability and some major engineering flaws on engines were not appealing to big crowd. B. Their service network is abysmal outside some countries, specifically EU that has 510 million people.
Marriage with Toyota showed them a way, basically Toyota taking over marketing and saying: let's compete who make more boring car, that sells.
Look their commercials? Particularly one with father driving, mom in passenger seat and kids behind. What does it say? Truck is on the street, you do not see it (average Subaru driver is becoming actually worse than average Toyota driver, thing that was very hard to achieve) and slam into it. If you had Subaru that would not happen. What would not happen? You, father, a driver, looking your kids dying in miserable death.
That is all they campaign on. Then there is all AWD thing. Of course they do not say that they will provide vehicles with mediocre tires and even worse performance (I recently drove colleagues Imprezza. I though I can outrun that car on foot). So people buy them thinking they solved their snow and ice problems. Here in CO they purposely market on billboards: taking on Colorado blizzard. Forget that most cars in a ditch during snow storms and slick roads, are, well, Subaru's. Why? Because average Subaru equals 2/32 tread on mediocre all seasons. Because, it is Subaru, we told you AWD. But we did not tell you that no one died because they were not moving forward fast enough, but because they could not stop fast enough.
And their fear based marketing and marketing with dogs and college kids is working. This is country that has doomsday people, people who ask on neighborhood page, 4 days after snow storm how are the roads outside because apparently they did not get out of the house. Toyota mastered that marketing, Subaru just added AWD and safety (tech that was invented by other companies, mostly high end companies and it trickled down).
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by edyvw
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
You are contradicting yourself:
Subaru pioneered boxer:
Now it is: it did not invent boxer. What is then definition of pioneering? Subaru did not bring boxer to perfection, as Porsche has MUCH better boxer engines and MUCH, MUCH more experience in that. Alfa Romeo brought boxer engine to perfection as in 1996 average Alfa did not need head gasket as part of regular maintenance like Subaru. So it took Subaru, what? 20 years to come where Alfa Romeo was in 1996?
What Subaru AWD speaks for itself? Audi was blasting it long before Subaru did.
Turbo since 1983? Audi had AWD and Turbo in line constantly since 1980, while turbo engines were present among other manufacturers even before, with BMW having turbo engine in 1973. Lancia Integrale? Subaru owners should stand up and salute every time Lancia Integrale name is mentioned. So you cherry picked Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler? What is your argument here? Subaru pioneered turbo among Subaru, GM, Ford and Chrysler?
Subaru did first crash test in japan? Japan is the world?
Pioneering among: Subaru, GM, Chevrolet and Chrysler.
One cannot make this stuff up.
Lots of bickering in here but I think this is a bit over the top. I've never owned a Subaru; my parents do, I'd consider one perhaps.
It's hard to get points across in conversational text on web forums.
I've noticed that even with lousy OE tires, my parents' forester goes up steep snowy hills on their mountain property, that we never could traverse. I'm in no way an apologist for AWD, but their system is great. Much less "burning smell" than our friends' CRV after snowy hilly use.
I'd argue that the Subaru interior I'm familiar with is every bit as good as any non luxury/non euro car.
Subaru quite likely has more boxer engines on the road than Porsche (and fewer garage queens that don't contribute to data well). I wouldn't be surprised if they have more AWD systems out there than Audi.
So I'd argue that Subaru is a leader, regardless of it from a strong fundamental engineering and design team, or copious data that informs engineering changes.
To compare Japanese cars to German ones is also a bit odd. So much of the Japanese engineering was done with a well engineered benchmark or benchmarks to copy/steal/reverse engineer/borrow from.
To argue about the rav/crv/etc, the mainstream ones are based upon mainstream sedans, which even if they don't get the love as much these days, still gets plenty of engineering and advances. The cub segment is hot and competitive. It's an area that requires constant one upping and improvement. They're all good in their respective flavors. But some like chocolate and some like vanilla.
None of this makes Subaru less of the standard in these days. All makers have warts and successes. Subaru does their product well.
I'd personally buy an outback
Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by edyvw
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
You are contradicting yourself:
Subaru pioneered boxer:
Now it is: it did not invent boxer. What is then definition of pioneering? Subaru did not bring boxer to perfection, as Porsche has MUCH better boxer engines and MUCH, MUCH more experience in that. Alfa Romeo brought boxer engine to perfection as in 1996 average Alfa did not need head gasket as part of regular maintenance like Subaru. So it took Subaru, what? 20 years to come where Alfa Romeo was in 1996?
What Subaru AWD speaks for itself? Audi was blasting it long before Subaru did.
Turbo since 1983? Audi had AWD and Turbo in line constantly since 1980, while turbo engines were present among other manufacturers even before, with BMW having turbo engine in 1973. Lancia Integrale? Subaru owners should stand up and salute every time Lancia Integrale name is mentioned. So you cherry picked Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler? What is your argument here? Subaru pioneered turbo among Subaru, GM, Ford and Chrysler?
Subaru did first crash test in japan? Japan is the world?
Pioneering among: Subaru, GM, Chevrolet and Chrysler.
One cannot make this stuff up.
Lots of bickering in here but I think this is a bit over the top. I've never owned a Subaru; my parents do, I'd consider one perhaps.
It's hard to get points across in conversational text on web forums.
I've noticed that even with lousy OE tires, my parents' forester goes up steep snowy hills on their mountain property, that we never could traverse. I'm in no way an apologist for AWD, but their system is great. Much less "burning smell" than our friends' CRV after snowy hilly use.
I'd argue that the Subaru interior I'm familiar with is every bit as good as any non luxury/non euro car.
Subaru quite likely has more boxer engines on the road than Porsche (and fewer garage queens that don't contribute to data well). I wouldn't be surprised if they have more AWD systems out there than Audi.
So I'd argue that Subaru is a leader, regardless of it from a strong fundamental engineering and design team, or copious data that informs engineering changes.
To compare Japanese cars to German ones is also a bit odd. So much of the Japanese engineering was done with a well engineered benchmark or benchmarks to copy/steal/reverse engineer/borrow from.
To argue about the rav/crv/etc, the mainstream ones are based upon mainstream sedans, which even if they don't get the love as much these days, still gets plenty of engineering and advances. The cub segment is hot and competitive. It's an area that requires constant one upping and improvement. They're all good in their respective flavors. But some like chocolate and some like vanilla.
None of this makes Subaru less of the standard in these days. All makers have warts and successes. Subaru does their product well.
I'd personally buy an outback
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by edyvw
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
You are contradicting yourself:
Subaru pioneered boxer:
Now it is: it did not invent boxer. What is then definition of pioneering? Subaru did not bring boxer to perfection, as Porsche has MUCH better boxer engines and MUCH, MUCH more experience in that. Alfa Romeo brought boxer engine to perfection as in 1996 average Alfa did not need head gasket as part of regular maintenance like Subaru. So it took Subaru, what? 20 years to come where Alfa Romeo was in 1996?
What Subaru AWD speaks for itself? Audi was blasting it long before Subaru did.
Turbo since 1983? Audi had AWD and Turbo in line constantly since 1980, while turbo engines were present among other manufacturers even before, with BMW having turbo engine in 1973. Lancia Integrale? Subaru owners should stand up and salute every time Lancia Integrale name is mentioned. So you cherry picked Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler? What is your argument here? Subaru pioneered turbo among Subaru, GM, Ford and Chrysler?
Subaru did first crash test in japan? Japan is the world?
Pioneering among: Subaru, GM, Chevrolet and Chrysler.
One cannot make this stuff up.
Lots of bickering in here but I think this is a bit over the top. I've never owned a Subaru; my parents do, I'd consider one perhaps.
It's hard to get points across in conversational text on web forums.
I've noticed that even with lousy OE tires, my parents' forester goes up steep snowy hills on their mountain property, that we never could traverse. I'm in no way an apologist for AWD, but their system is great. Much less "burning smell" than our friends' CRV after snowy hilly use.
I'd argue that the Subaru interior I'm familiar with is every bit as good as any non luxury/non euro car.
Subaru quite likely has more boxer engines on the road than Porsche (and fewer garage queens that don't contribute to data well). I wouldn't be surprised if they have more AWD systems out there than Audi.
So I'd argue that Subaru is a leader, regardless of it from a strong fundamental engineering and design team, or copious data that informs engineering changes.
To compare Japanese cars to German ones is also a bit odd. So much of the Japanese engineering was done with a well engineered benchmark or benchmarks to copy/steal/reverse engineer/borrow from.
To argue about the rav/crv/etc, the mainstream ones are based upon mainstream sedans, which even if they don't get the love as much these days, still gets plenty of engineering and advances. The cub segment is hot and competitive. It's an area that requires constant one upping and improvement. They're all good in their respective flavors. But some like chocolate and some like vanilla.
None of this makes Subaru less of the standard in these days. All makers have warts and successes. Subaru does their product well.
I'd personally buy an outback
Of course Subaru has more boxer engine son the road, they sell more cars than Porsche (maybe). What that has to do with the fact that Porsche is using Boxer engines far longer and in more competitive applications than Subaru?
More AWD systems than Audi? Yeah and? That is somehow better?
As far as I know, ANY AWD will go forward with all season tires. But I overtook in snow Subaru's, havingsnow tires on FWD car. AWD is good as tires are. There is no doubt properly equipped Subaru has some really good potential going forward, arguably best among appliance cars. I am not so confident in other dynamic capabilities.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by edyvw
Care to provide us with those pioneering achievements?
Audi had turbo+AWD long before Subaru. And I think, I think Boxer engines were used in cars of these companies before Subaru existed: Citroen, Lancia, Ford, VW, BMW, Chevrolet etc.
And safety? What "safety" did Subaru invented? I mean they are safe vehicles, but what did they pioneered?
https://www.subaru-global.com/ourstory/heritage2.html
Also subaru's entire carline passed the small overlap test the first time it was inaugurated
https://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/16/subaru-forester-first-to-ace-difficult-new-iihs-crash-test-w-v/
Subaru
Subaru multi layer B pillars: https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10503660/subaru-ringshaped-reinforcement-frame
Subaru was the first Japanese car company do crash testing.
Im not even going to explain Subaru's legacy with AWD. Pretty much speaks for itself. You can read up on it.
Subaru did not invent the boxer but since 1966 all subaru have had boxer engines. How many current vehicles othen a couple of Porshe'shave the boxer? Answer none. did they perfect it and use it exclusively..uhhh-yea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
Turbo Engines. Subaru began using turbo's in their vehicles since 1983. How did GM, Ford, and chrysler do here? Yea Cheverolet had the pee-por flat 6 turbo.
Al this pioneering by a company that is not even in the top 20 in terms of vehicles produced. And 40 years ago they were even less popular.
You are contradicting yourself:
Subaru pioneered boxer:
Now it is: it did not invent boxer. What is then definition of pioneering? Subaru did not bring boxer to perfection, as Porsche has MUCH better boxer engines and MUCH, MUCH more experience in that. Alfa Romeo brought boxer engine to perfection as in 1996 average Alfa did not need head gasket as part of regular maintenance like Subaru. So it took Subaru, what? 20 years to come where Alfa Romeo was in 1996?
What Subaru AWD speaks for itself? Audi was blasting it long before Subaru did.
Turbo since 1983? Audi had AWD and Turbo in line constantly since 1980, while turbo engines were present among other manufacturers even before, with BMW having turbo engine in 1973. Lancia Integrale? Subaru owners should stand up and salute every time Lancia Integrale name is mentioned. So you cherry picked Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler? What is your argument here? Subaru pioneered turbo among Subaru, GM, Ford and Chrysler?
Subaru did first crash test in japan? Japan is the world?
Pioneering among: Subaru, GM, Chevrolet and Chrysler.
One cannot make this stuff up.
Lots of bickering in here but I think this is a bit over the top. I've never owned a Subaru; my parents do, I'd consider one perhaps.
It's hard to get points across in conversational text on web forums.
I've noticed that even with lousy OE tires, my parents' forester goes up steep snowy hills on their mountain property, that we never could traverse. I'm in no way an apologist for AWD, but their system is great. Much less "burning smell" than our friends' CRV after snowy hilly use.
I'd argue that the Subaru interior I'm familiar with is every bit as good as any non luxury/non euro car.
Subaru quite likely has more boxer engines on the road than Porsche (and fewer garage queens that don't contribute to data well). I wouldn't be surprised if they have more AWD systems out there than Audi.
So I'd argue that Subaru is a leader, regardless of it from a strong fundamental engineering and design team, or copious data that informs engineering changes.
To compare Japanese cars to German ones is also a bit odd. So much of the Japanese engineering was done with a well engineered benchmark or benchmarks to copy/steal/reverse engineer/borrow from.
To argue about the rav/crv/etc, the mainstream ones are based upon mainstream sedans, which even if they don't get the love as much these days, still gets plenty of engineering and advances. The cub segment is hot and competitive. It's an area that requires constant one upping and improvement. They're all good in their respective flavors. But some like chocolate and some like vanilla.
None of this makes Subaru less of the standard in these days. All makers have warts and successes. Subaru does their product well.
I'd personally buy an outback
Of course Subaru has more boxer engine son the road, they sell more cars than Porsche (maybe). What that has to do with the fact that Porsche is using Boxer engines far longer and in more competitive applications than Subaru?
More AWD systems than Audi? Yeah and? That is somehow better?
As far as I know, ANY AWD will go forward with all season tires. But I overtook in snow Subaru's, havingsnow tires on FWD car. AWD is good as tires are. There is no doubt properly equipped Subaru has some really good potential going forward, arguably best among appliance cars. I am not so confident in other dynamic capabilities.
Last edited:
wemay
Site Donor 2023
"But i overtook in snow Subaru's having snow tires on FWD car"
That must settle it because I'm sure they wanted to beat you as bad as you did them. But you managed to overtake.
That must settle it because I'm sure they wanted to beat you as bad as you did them. But you managed to overtake.
Originally Posted by wemay
"But i overtook in snow Subaru's having snow tires on FWD car"
That must settle it because I'm sure they wanted to beat you as bad as you did them. But you managed to overtake.
It is understatement to say how [censored] most drivers of Subaru are (or JEEP, this is another category) when you pass them on snowy road. It is another level of anger right there.
And yes, this Subaru was doing everything possible to be fastest guy on the road. Problem were: tires.
"But i overtook in snow Subaru's having snow tires on FWD car"
That must settle it because I'm sure they wanted to beat you as bad as you did them. But you managed to overtake.
It is understatement to say how [censored] most drivers of Subaru are (or JEEP, this is another category) when you pass them on snowy road. It is another level of anger right there.
And yes, this Subaru was doing everything possible to be fastest guy on the road. Problem were: tires.
Originally Posted by PimTac
I think the anger is coming from another direction. Foolish drivers can be driving any brand including audi.
Of course. But when people are indoctrinated that they drive best this, best that, they think they can do anything.
But apparently there are a lot of foolish Subaru drivers, considering how many of them is in the ditch when snow hits.
I think the anger is coming from another direction. Foolish drivers can be driving any brand including audi.
Of course. But when people are indoctrinated that they drive best this, best that, they think they can do anything.
But apparently there are a lot of foolish Subaru drivers, considering how many of them is in the ditch when snow hits.
This thread is still going?
Audis are luxury cars.
Subarus have always had more suspension travel. Even that is going away.
Front end weight bias is always bad for handling and braking. Having said that, I will gladly accept a gift of a short wheelbase S1 E2 Quattro. 600 hp will help rotate that heavy front end!
Audis are luxury cars.
Subarus have always had more suspension travel. Even that is going away.
Front end weight bias is always bad for handling and braking. Having said that, I will gladly accept a gift of a short wheelbase S1 E2 Quattro. 600 hp will help rotate that heavy front end!
For what we paid for our Foresters and what the older one has endured with few problems, I'm quite happy with these cars.
My wife finds the Forester to be a safe and easy commuter in awful winter conditions and she is a competent but non-enthusiast driver.
She could probably leave most posters in FWD or RWD cars for dead regardless of tires without even trying, since she wouldn't be and wouldn't care either way.
The Foresters do have outstanding suspension travel which allows them to deal with bad pavement in a way that no current VAG product can, nor can most current MB and BMW models, even the CUVs.
Subarus are not the ideal car for every driver, which is the reason that we bought an Accord Hybrid for my use, but they are very good cars that are very capable in bad winter conditions, even on the often derided OEM Yokohamas.
They are also a compelling value for what you get, just like my Accord Hybrid.
Can't say that of any Euro car unless you buy one at the pennies on the dollar used price, which you don't see with Subarus.
My wife finds the Forester to be a safe and easy commuter in awful winter conditions and she is a competent but non-enthusiast driver.
She could probably leave most posters in FWD or RWD cars for dead regardless of tires without even trying, since she wouldn't be and wouldn't care either way.
The Foresters do have outstanding suspension travel which allows them to deal with bad pavement in a way that no current VAG product can, nor can most current MB and BMW models, even the CUVs.
Subarus are not the ideal car for every driver, which is the reason that we bought an Accord Hybrid for my use, but they are very good cars that are very capable in bad winter conditions, even on the often derided OEM Yokohamas.
They are also a compelling value for what you get, just like my Accord Hybrid.
Can't say that of any Euro car unless you buy one at the pennies on the dollar used price, which you don't see with Subarus.
Originally Posted by 555
This thread is still going?
Audis are luxury cars.
Subarus have always had more suspension travel. Even that is going away.
Front end weight bias is always bad for handling and braking. Having said that, I will gladly accept a gift of a short wheelbase S1 E2 Quattro. 600 hp will help rotate that heavy front end!
Front end in Audi is an issue, though rest of the car is being engineered well enough that it is mitigated for spirited driving. Now, will it be neutral as BMW? No. Audi is trying hard to push that engine back, to point where they made big deal of moving engine in new A4 B9 3mm back. That is due to Torsen requirements that is not allowing engine sitting back enough to mitigate that "Audisteer.
But, Audi is famous for AWD, and they do not want to give up on that, same like BMW will never give up on RWD bias in xDrive.
This thread is still going?
Audis are luxury cars.
Subarus have always had more suspension travel. Even that is going away.
Front end weight bias is always bad for handling and braking. Having said that, I will gladly accept a gift of a short wheelbase S1 E2 Quattro. 600 hp will help rotate that heavy front end!
Front end in Audi is an issue, though rest of the car is being engineered well enough that it is mitigated for spirited driving. Now, will it be neutral as BMW? No. Audi is trying hard to push that engine back, to point where they made big deal of moving engine in new A4 B9 3mm back. That is due to Torsen requirements that is not allowing engine sitting back enough to mitigate that "Audisteer.
But, Audi is famous for AWD, and they do not want to give up on that, same like BMW will never give up on RWD bias in xDrive.
Originally Posted by fdcg27
For what we paid for our Foresters and what the older one has endured with few problems, I'm quite happy with these cars.
My wife finds the Forester to be a safe and easy commuter in awful winter conditions and she is a competent but non-enthusiast driver.
She could probably leave most posters in FWD or RWD cars for dead regardless of tires without even trying, since she wouldn't be and wouldn't care either way.
The Foresters do have outstanding suspension travel which allows them to deal with bad pavement in a way that no current VAG product can, nor can most current MB and BMW models, even the CUVs.
Subarus are not the ideal car for every driver, which is the reason that we bought an Accord Hybrid for my use, but they are very good cars that are very capable in bad winter conditions, even on the often derided OEM Yokohamas.
They are also a compelling value for what you get, just like my Accord Hybrid.
Can't say that of any Euro car unless you buy one at the pennies on the dollar used price, which you don't see with Subarus.
Alternate universe is apparently real. No wonder so many Subaru's are in ditch when it snows.
For what we paid for our Foresters and what the older one has endured with few problems, I'm quite happy with these cars.
My wife finds the Forester to be a safe and easy commuter in awful winter conditions and she is a competent but non-enthusiast driver.
She could probably leave most posters in FWD or RWD cars for dead regardless of tires without even trying, since she wouldn't be and wouldn't care either way.
The Foresters do have outstanding suspension travel which allows them to deal with bad pavement in a way that no current VAG product can, nor can most current MB and BMW models, even the CUVs.
Subarus are not the ideal car for every driver, which is the reason that we bought an Accord Hybrid for my use, but they are very good cars that are very capable in bad winter conditions, even on the often derided OEM Yokohamas.
They are also a compelling value for what you get, just like my Accord Hybrid.
Can't say that of any Euro car unless you buy one at the pennies on the dollar used price, which you don't see with Subarus.
Alternate universe is apparently real. No wonder so many Subaru's are in ditch when it snows.
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