So how exactly are EVs going to save the planet?

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EVs and Hybrids are not going to save the planet.

For starters, the Planet doesn't care one whit if it's Human-habitable or not, it's got 4 billion years left and it isn't going anywhere. So the Planet doesn't need to be saved, it's safe as is, or it's doomed by some future colossal collision that breaks it into more than one piece (unlikely) but aside from that, the future is bright, up until the inevitable full-on death, eaten by the Sun, presumably.

The technology is reasonably mature, but is expensive compared to internal combustion types due to a massive reliance on Rare Earth Minerals and a colossal CO2 emission in manufacture, vs the IC motor's CO2 emission recycling.

Which brings up the point that the EV advantage is not as large as some might think, since there is also a per-mile CO2 penalty due to the cost of electric generation versus the per-mile CO2 penalty of burning refined gas, diesel, natural gas or some other less commonly nused but perfectly reasonable fuels like acetylene or propane.

Similarly, although the EV is recyclable, so is the IC vehicle, and with more to recycle and more difficult materials to actually recycle, there is an additional CO2 penalty in dismantling the existing E-vehicle, a penalty put off into the future.

But the real nail in the EV coffin is the fact that to replace the energy currently used by IC engines requires an increase in Electric Generation power that is orders of magnitude greater than any current plans. Put another way, if all the world's IC cars magically turned into EVs tomorrow morning, a high 90th percentile would not be able to move due to a lack of generating power, a situation that takes 5~25 years to rectify, if it's even possible to rectify, especially since we are also looking at the largest explosion in individual car ownership the world has ever seen, with possibly a billion new owners within 20 years.

We haven't even mentioned that all that plastic requires oil to manufacture.

Every little bit helps but some of the emissions penalties of EVs are not even accounted for at all, so the definitive answer is they are less "Green" than they are purported to be, we just don't know by how much since we don't calculate those inputs. That is not due to some sinister plot, it's due to the massive complexity of the calculation, in some cases the input is known to be greater than zero but we simply can't calculate how much do to that complexity.

How complex? It took six years to calculate the environmental cost to manufacture a 1990-era 286 PC vs a 1965 Cadillac (the Caddy won, by the way). To do such an assessment today, even with massive data processing improvements, is probably still too complex. We can figure out the environmental cost of inputs to make a smartphone, given a year or three. (It isn't pretty, by the way). But a whole car? Beyond our ability.

I don't want to put people off buying an EV or Hybrid if it makes sense to them, but you aren't going to "save the planet"* that way. You "save the planet" by walking to work.

* "save the planet" means but does not say "save the planet for human habitation". According to some, we're about half way to burying the thing in garbage and moving to a new one to ruin.
 
Will this new ev thing work on airplanes, ships, cranes, jackhammers, stoves, Mcd's french fry makers and so on??
 
If electricity is so great why does it cost 3x as much as #2 oil to heat my house with it?

Get it so my house heats cheaply and I'll leave the oil at the terminal. It would be more useful for something with wheels.

I do one thing with solar power, dry my laundry, LOL. It would take 10s of thousands of dollars to grid-tie my house with solar or wind to offset the watts I simply avoid using with a clothesline.
 
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Will this new ev thing work on airplanes, ships, cranes, jackhammers, stoves, Mcd's french fry makers and so on??


A battery powered airliner will have a few limitations. 30 minutes of flight, and extremely overweight landings among them. Oh, and they will be limited to 300mph, as there is no viable way to heat the air (remember the heat of combustion is required for jet propulsion)

However, in 10 years time, it looks like EV's will have 600 mile range. That's good enough to be practical for nearly everybody.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
No one is charging at 3pm in the afternoon, they're all on the road or in their office.

At Arizona State University where I'm a student you can charge your electric car while in class. Powered by solar panels.

We also have charging stations at work


According to their website, daytime peak generation they are manufacturing 50% of their demand on site with the solar...50% comes from someone else. It annually replaces 7.5% of their GHG.

So look at the coverage that you already have to provide that much...then consider that to become carbon neutral they need 20 times that much in terms of panels, PLUS storage so that you can use it the rest of the day/year.

Storage (per Lazard Levelised Cost of storage) is 25c(US) per KWh round trip.

Better than 0%


And cost vs benefit is what?
 
Maybe the planet is saving itself by killing off we humans
smile.gif


Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Why would the planet need saving?
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
The graph does so some useful points. Look at propane versus CNG. Now, propane isn't as widespread as it used to be here, but it did take off much more than CNG, particularly where vehicles required a greater range. CNG works fine on buses driving around the city, with lots of fuel storage space, no concern for long range, and no worry about public refuelling infrastructure. I still don't see me hopping into an electric vehicle and driving off to Calgary or Edmonton any time soon.

I recently managed a large fleet in Canada of 1000+ light/medium duty trucks which should be perfectly suited for propane.
Once you factor in propane upfitting costs, loss of cargo capacity due to weight of propane tanks it may have been break even.
What swayed it to the no column was the extra management required of the drivers. Old school propane was solely propane. New school is the truck starts on gasoline, and switches to propane once the engine and coolant is at operating temperature - so dual fuel. Well guess what is going to happen - drivers will only fill up on one fuel, gasoline, and then your project is cratered.
"Funny" story. We had propane commercial trucks in our operation is the 80's. But with the cold Ottawa winters, they had continual no start issues due to propane freeze up. In a staff meeting, one of our drivers told us his solution. All you had to do was heat up the propane convertor with a blow torch, and it started just fine......uhuh....right...
After someone left the in yard tank with the propane hose attached to the truck a few weeks later, we rapidly decommissioned propane and never looked back.
 
HVAC is a good start as to "what's your solution".

Why do we NEED to be 21C 24/7 ?
We weren't for the VAST majority of our existence.

That house that you are heating/cooling used to contain a lot of people...now, with broken families, whole houses often contain 1 person (3-4 weekabout)...and they are bigger than they've ever been, and less well designed to collect heat when it's there, and dissipate it when it needs to be gone...hard up on the boundary, no eaves, and then even more HVAC to get it back under control.

We, collectively had slaves and beasts of burden when we wanted more than our own personal energy could provide...We discovered means of converting fossil fuels into work, and "productivity scalated", giving us the "standard of living that we now enjoy.

And energy use is doing this...


Consider the grains of rice and exponential theory on the chessboard analogy..1 on the 1st square, 2 on the second, 4 on the third, 8 on the 4th....etc... https://www.dedoimedo.com/life/rice.html haven't checked the math, but you should be able to get it.

"It's a start", or "better than nothing" doesn't address what's clearly obvious if yo look at the trend.

replace EVERY use of fossil fuel, or nukes (bad guy), or hydro (it's the new bad guy) with renewables, and don't address the elephant in the room, then clearly...

We run out of land to put panels and windfarms (BTW, acreage with panels isn't recycling carbon/oxygen).

That's easy, cover the ocean...that's another 3 times the area, but that's not much more than the next doubling period.

Invent fusion, an unlimited source of energy, and then we have to radiate ALL of that energy into space on top of Gaia's normal heat balance.

Pointing out that something is wrong, and that the solutions offered are wrong is fine. The "Well what's your fix ?" does not invalidate that there IS something wrong in either the problem, or the offered solutions.

Easy answer...stop the exponential growth of energy use...
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
EVs and Hybrids are not going to save the planet.

For starters, the Planet doesn't care one whit if it's Human-habitable or not, it's got 4 billion years left and it isn't going anywhere. So the Planet doesn't need to be saved, it's safe as is, or it's doomed by some future colossal collision that breaks it into more than one piece (unlikely) but aside from that, the future is bright, up until the inevitable full-on death, eaten by the Sun, presumably.

The technology is reasonably mature, but is expensive compared to internal combustion types due to a massive reliance on Rare Earth Minerals and a colossal CO2 emission in manufacture, vs the IC motor's CO2 emission recycling.

Which brings up the point that the EV advantage is not as large as some might think, since there is also a per-mile CO2 penalty due to the cost of electric generation versus the per-mile CO2 penalty of burning refined gas, diesel, natural gas or some other less commonly nused but perfectly reasonable fuels like acetylene or propane.

Similarly, although the EV is recyclable, so is the IC vehicle, and with more to recycle and more difficult materials to actually recycle, there is an additional CO2 penalty in dismantling the existing E-vehicle, a penalty put off into the future.

But the real nail in the EV coffin is the fact that to replace the energy currently used by IC engines requires an increase in Electric Generation power that is orders of magnitude greater than any current plans. Put another way, if all the world's IC cars magically turned into EVs tomorrow morning, a high 90th percentile would not be able to move due to a lack of generating power, a situation that takes 5~25 years to rectify, if it's even possible to rectify, especially since we are also looking at the largest explosion in individual car ownership the world has ever seen, with possibly a billion new owners within 20 years.

We haven't even mentioned that all that plastic requires oil to manufacture.

Every little bit helps but some of the emissions penalties of EVs are not even accounted for at all, so the definitive answer is they are less "Green" than they are purported to be, we just don't know by how much since we don't calculate those inputs. That is not due to some sinister plot, it's due to the massive complexity of the calculation, in some cases the input is known to be greater than zero but we simply can't calculate how much do to that complexity.

How complex? It took six years to calculate the environmental cost to manufacture a 1990-era 286 PC vs a 1965 Cadillac (the Caddy won, by the way). To do such an assessment today, even with massive data processing improvements, is probably still too complex. We can figure out the environmental cost of inputs to make a smartphone, given a year or three. (It isn't pretty, by the way). But a whole car? Beyond our ability.

I don't want to put people off buying an EV or Hybrid if it makes sense to them, but you aren't going to "save the planet"* that way. You "save the planet" by walking to work.

* "save the planet" means but does not say "save the planet for human habitation". According to some, we're about half way to burying the thing in garbage and moving to a new one to ruin.


I agree with you. The green arguments annoy me, because most people who claim to be green just talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk. I disagree that electric vehicles are really even a step in the right direction. The green arguement of EV vehicles is complex, and I consider it a possibility that they may not even improve emissions. There’s so much to consider, waste at production, waste at ownership, and waste at end of life.

I think if people really wanted to be green, there would be some personal sacrifice. Walk to work, eat less meat, small conservation habits at the house. But humanity does not instinctively defer instant-gratification. I mean, look at the government debt. Years and years of piling on debt, at the expense of future generations. We all want free stuff. I tolerate better people that admit that fact, rather than the holier than thou types that deny their selfish motivations. Try this: say the government is going to create a large gas tax, all in the name of being green. See how the public reacts. That will show how green we are. A gas tax would ultimately reduce consumption, because people respond to incentives, not gratification deprivation. But most people would be up in arms over a gas tax.
 
There is no problem, the planet is not in danger.

Nothing wrong with curbing pollution and cleaner air and water but no way should we be thinking we are "saving the planet" from anything because it is all B.S.
I repeat, ALL B.S.
 
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Originally Posted By: Jooksing
This only tells us that gasoline is very effective at carrying energy for the volume.



+1. Nobody denies the density benefit of hydrocarbons. Precisely why HEVs and PHEVs are superior. But this is either uninformed knee-jerk or baiting...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
HVAC is a good start as to "what's your solution".

Why do we NEED to be 21C 24/7 ?
We weren't for the VAST majority of our existence.

That house that you are heating/cooling used to contain a lot of people...now, with broken families, whole houses often contain 1 person (3-4 weekabout)...and they are bigger than they've ever been, and less well designed to collect heat when it's there, and dissipate it when it needs to be gone...hard up on the boundary, no eaves, and then even more HVAC to get it back under control.

We, collectively had slaves and beasts of burden when we wanted more than our own personal energy could provide...We discovered means of converting fossil fuels into work, and "productivity scalated", giving us the "standard of living that we now enjoy.

And energy use is doing this...


Consider the grains of rice and exponential theory on the chessboard analogy..1 on the 1st square, 2 on the second, 4 on the third, 8 on the 4th....etc... https://www.dedoimedo.com/life/rice.html haven't checked the math, but you should be able to get it.

"It's a start", or "better than nothing" doesn't address what's clearly obvious if yo look at the trend.

replace EVERY use of fossil fuel, or nukes (bad guy), or hydro (it's the new bad guy) with renewables, and don't address the elephant in the room, then clearly...

We run out of land to put panels and windfarms (BTW, acreage with panels isn't recycling carbon/oxygen).

That's easy, cover the ocean...that's another 3 times the area, but that's not much more than the next doubling period.

Invent fusion, an unlimited source of energy, and then we have to radiate ALL of that energy into space on top of Gaia's normal heat balance.

Pointing out that something is wrong, and that the solutions offered are wrong is fine. The "Well what's your fix ?" does not invalidate that there IS something wrong in either the problem, or the offered solutions.

Easy answer...stop the exponential growth of energy use...




So true. The "I deserve" culture is really the culprit.
 
Whatever effort humans try to apply the planet will do whatever it wants. EVs can provide cleaner transportation but a new waste problem arises plus the generating grid to charge these batteries.

The planet is very resilient. Example; a point I thought of a couple of weeks ago. If several ships were sunk in a close radius today’s environmental movement might say that the area is ruined forever. Yet in WW2 there are multiples of sites were dozens of ship were sank not to mention the unknown tonnage of lead pumped into the ocean. Yet these sites flourish today with vibrant coral reefs and fish.
 
This chart doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.
In the real world, my wife and I do around 36K a year between us, 80% of which would be practical with currently available EVs charged in our garage. Any free charging at any destination would be mere icing on the cake.
In terms of reducing and not merely shifting carbon emissions, a sensible energy policy would be promoting nuclear fission plants for electricity generation rather than natural gas as well as increased funding for work on controlled fusion.
The potential for dramatically reduced emissions of all kinds is there. We just have to be smart enough to make the right policy choices, which would also involve ignoring the pleas of those heavily leveraged natural gas developers who have benefitted richly from the current mania for natural gas generating plants that they've done so much to create.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
"what's your solution"
replace EVERY use of fossil fuel, or nukes (bad guy), or hydro (it's the new bad guy) with renewables, and don't address the elephant in the room, then clearly...
We run out of land to put panels and windfarms (BTW, acreage with panels isn't recycling carbon/oxygen).

Your arguments are basically valid, and point to the REAL elephant in the room: Overpopulation
What the human race is trying to do now is find a way to support 9 billion people in the near future (we are at 7.2 billion now).
In the meantime, we just want to breathe clean air, drink clean water, etc. until the situation gets dire. Renewables might buy us some time.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Renewables might buy us some time.


If they appeared miraculously out of air, at zero environmental harm, yes.

But the production of them is pushing the energy curve upwards...they are pushing down on the pedal, not buying anyone any time, because there is no stable point future that they are trying to get us to in the shortest possible time.
 
Originally Posted By: Jooksing
This only tells us that gasoline is very effective at carrying energy for the volume.



And that simple fact is what makes automobiles powered by gasoline so useful. The basic question of automobile design is "can enough energy be stored onboard to give the car sufficient payload capacity, speed, and range to be useful to its operator." EV's fall far short on all counts.
 
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
There is no problem, the planet is not in danger.

Nothing wrong with curbing pollution and cleaner air and water but no way should we be thinking we are "saving the planet" from anything because it is all B.S.
I repeat, ALL B.S.

The ony reason the planet is not long dead is that 75% of the 7.5 billion is using about 10% of ehe evergy you use/waste. If everyone on the planet used the amount of energy that you use-oxygen levels would drop to about 5% in a year. The good news is that would "save" the planet. But "News Flash" the planet does not need saving...we do. So in a sense you were correct.
 
Growing world population isn't the real problem. Actual population will peak in around thirty years and then slowly decline.
Growing affluent world population is the real problem.
Fifty years ago, it was a commonplace that they want what we have. At the time, China was embarking on that great march backward known as the Cultural Revolution and nobody envisioned China as spawning another United States' worth of affluent energy and other resource consumers fifty years hence, but that has come to pass.
It has long been recognized that the planet cannot support what is commonly considered a first world standard of living for a very large fraction of its inhabitants, but that fraction is growing at an alarming pace with energy and other resource consumption growing at the same rate.
The question is whether we have a soft landing or a very abrupt crash as the physical limits of what the planet can support are approached.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
HVAC is a good start as to "what's your solution".

Why do we NEED to be 21C 24/7 ?
We weren't for the VAST majority of our existence.


We don't but overpopulation is putting people into less hospitable corners of the world. I at least enjoy running potable water and its ability to keep me germ-free. Keeping the house envelope warm enough for indoor plumbing is the current standard.

If people had to truck fuel to their homes, things would get more efficient! I had to schlep 5 gallon cans when my former fuel oil provider went tango uniform during a January cold snap.
 
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