Sinopec Synthetic 15W-40

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Great Wall owned one refinery (out of three) in Singapore,in joint venture with a local company IIRC, which was bought over from British Petroleum of Singapore (yes, British Petroleum!) some 10-15 years ago.
The other two Singapore refineries are owned by ExxonMobil and Chevron/Caltex respectively some time back.
Isn't Great Wall Singapore credible ?
 
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Originally Posted By: zeng
Great Wall owned one refinery (out of three) in Singapore,in joint venture with a local company IIRC, which was bought over from British Petroleum of Singapore (yes, British Petroleum!) some 10-15 years ago. The other two Singapore refineries are owned by ExxonMobil and Chevron/Caltex respectively some time back. Isn't Great Wall Singapore credible ?
Zeng - I would think so. Products from China may be one thing, but those from Singapore are entirely different and highly credible. Just trying to see where Dave's thoughts are headed.
 
All - I may be an outsider here, but I can adjust my position if the data shows it prudent.

I have ZERO ability to comment on products from Singapore. I have experience in Supplier Quality Assurance issues regarding China.

When I researched the product, it clearly states it's China owned; that is where my concern exists. You most certainly can be correct that they may just own the Singapore facility. However, parent companies do have the ability to influence downward decisions and mantra. Maybe they have a great product; maybe it's a ruse. The difference is one of effect. Do the Chinese just own it and leave it to operate to a Singapore standard of operation, or have they "taken over"?

Continue to label me a skeptic, but open to proof that it's viable if it can be shown as such. I have no basis to say this product is bad. I have every right to use past experience with Chinese-company-managed products and make associative assumptions. My contention is this; I've seen plenty of product samples pass muster at formal inspection, but the production runs a year later end up being compromised later down the line. Whether this is intentional or just accidental is of no difference to the end consumer; they still get a poor product. Sometimes they make choices and arrogant decisions. Other times they make poor assumptions and mistakes out of ignorance. Either way I would be concerned about what one buys out of that 5 gallon pail. Generally, I trust most organizations to fulfill not only the API sample bottle, but also the end consumer products, with equal zeal and dedication. But I've personally been involved in the damage control following products that don't measure up to the samples submitted by Chinese companies. They know how to pass the standards, but may not always have a firm resolve to fulfill those standards. It's a real fear; I've seen the evidence and had to help clean up the messes. Most simply put in regard to my experience with Chinese products for our HVAC industry, what they submit to the inspector is not always what they push later on to the consumer. Does that translate from HVAC into lube industries? I don't know. But the management system is what concerns me from Chinese companies. Hence my trepidation.

Now if someone had person experience with the Tulux product for many years, and can testify to it's condition with evidence in UOAs, VOAs, etc, I'd be convinced. Until that happens, I'm going to be difficult to convince. But- to be fair to the product, I will most certainly change my position if that kind of evidence comes forth. Normally I'd accept the API cert as proof, but that is because I trust most US and European companies to be fairly good at trying to fullfill the intent in every bottle, not just the sample bottle. That same trust does not exist for me with Chinese products.

There's nothing wrong with trying this product; it at least has a reasonable pedigree with the API. I just would run a VOA on it prior to the crankcase. After you run it, then post up a subsequent UOA behind the VOA. That would be a good start to convince me my fears are unfounded.


Regarding the VOA, it won't address base stock; it will address additives at least visible in a OA. Not an all encompassing viewpoint, but at least some viewpoint. it's a good place to start PRIOR to putting the lube in the crankcase, if you share my fears. If not, then just go for it!
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
All - I may be an outsider here, but I can adjust my position if the data shows it prudent.[...]
Dave - your statements are fair. I just could not quite tell what you were trying to convey, so thanks for the clarification. I have no ability to determine if the oil is good or not save for buying some and testing/trying it. My company has offices in China and I have been there a few times so I know what you are talking about regarding the overall quality and chance of a mishap. I did not check to see if Sinopec is ISO certified, but that too can be "staged" to obtain the cert and pass audits/inspections while falling short between those times. I would hazard to guess though, that most, if not all of the engines in Singapore are using "local" oil and not finished oil imported from NA/EU so from that aspect, one can only hope the oil is suitable for use.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
All - I may be an outsider here, but ........


Me too an outsider, .....
but I believe I'm not of double standards , irrational ...
and I might understand your circumstances of 'logics' possibly borne out of fear, unknown etc.

It remains a 'logics', not factual in this context, IMHO........
and I do hope you read through the comment section in amazon, which is American.

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Sinopec Synthetic 15W-40
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Quote from comment section on amazon:
Quote:



My 'logics' is :
a)This oil is refined in Singapore by Singapore Refinery Company SRC (read:enforcement by authorities).
b)This SRC refinery was and likely IS ... co-owned by Petro China SPC and Chevron, yes Chevron from USA certainly.
(Correction: the others are by ExxonMobil and Shell respectively , not Chevron as mistakenly quoted above)
c)This product was blended in Singapore.
d)However, this product is not marketed by refinery owners in Chevron or Petro China.
Instead, it is marketed by Petro China's 'fierce' competitor (domestically) in Sinopec.
e)This product was shipped from Singapore direct to US, possibly in bulk or packaged in Singapore IDK.
f)This Sinopec product was NOT made in China.
g)Btw, in May 2011 Competition Commission Singapore claimed 20% of petrol production in Singapore is for domestic market and 80% is for open market trading.
It is your guess ........
on non-petrol products distribution ........ such as this in question.
 
You make good points.

Like I said, I have absolutely no ability to say with certainty that this product is bad. Please don't take it that way.

I do, however, have a very solid basis to be skeptical when a Chinese-owned/managed company is in play. Just because the product is not made in China, does not mean that the Chinese business culture has not pervaded into Tulux territory so to speak. I cannot say that is has for sure, but I don't know that anyone yet has the ability to state with certainty that it has not. This is why I'm a skeptic; previous experience and lack of convincing evidence from a personal standpoint.

I never said don't use it; I said perhaps buy a small quantity, run a VOA, then run a limited OCI and then a UOA.
Build your way up in the trust cycle.
If it were me, I'd walk into the lake slowly, not dive in head first into murky water.

So, the prudent thing here is to "Trust, but verify." (quoting one of my favorite Presidents)
 
A synthetic 15w40 CJ-4? Interesting. Not sure I've ever seen that in a hdeo oil. Normally the synthetics are 5w-40 and the dinos are 15w40.

Btw the price has dropped to $46.19 for the 5 gallon pail at Amazon.
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Nobody has noticed the problem with the claimed ACEA specs?

Ed
Which is? Please share.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Nobody has noticed the problem with the claimed ACEA specs?

Ed
Which is? Please share.


They are claiming E7-08 and E9-08. Current sequence is -16. The last date that an oil could claim -08 was December 22, 2012. ACEA does not recognize out of date specs, -08 equals not ACEA certified. That calls into question all the claims except for the API, which has been verified. One could pull up the approved lubricants for the other specifications to see if it was listed, but improperly claiming ACEA specs is a red flag for me.

http://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php

Ed
 
Honestly I had not put a lot of work into this until Ed brought that up.
Now I'm looking and finding exactly what I implied; typical Chinese business model of "close" but not quite right.

Look at these links:
This is the current webpage for their product - https://www.sinopeclubricants.com/15w40-diesel-engine-oil-5-gallon-pail-p/d-t6001540-sp.htm
This is a link to that product data - http://sinopeclubricants.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/pds-D-T6001540-SP.pdf
This is a large data brochure - http://sinopecenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Technical_Specification_Synthetic_Lubricants.pdf
This is a PDS for their conventional "classic" HDEO - http://sinopeclubricants.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/pds-D-T5001540-SD.pdf

Unless I've overlooked it somewhere, I cannot locate any "date" or "title" on the written materials. I have no idea how "old" that Tulux product data sheet is. Which is why Ed's comment is valid; they reference an outdated ACEA spec, but then again, their current PDS might be that old! Heck, the "Classic" diesel oil they offer has really old cert claims. In the big product file, they claim to be certified to ISO and many other organizational creeds, but their document does not even have a date on it or document number on it; that's violation of inspection protocol 101 conceptually!

It might be that they are blending info of marketing with info of product data, all into one sheet. This would be no different than when we see the majors we're accustomed to claiming "intended for applications of ..." or "meets/exceeds ...." or "approved for use in ..." but won't have/claim a license number. Valvoline does it. Amsoil does it. Rotella does it (for the JASO specs). But the Tulux is claiming stuff that is not current certification, on their current product listings! Now, do we accept this as their "it will work if used here" statement, or as a formerly "licensed" but no longer technically valid?


This is what I was trying to assert earlier. I realize that mistakes do happen; no company is completely infallible; we all get that. But the Chinese business culture tends to be good a mimicking stuff, but not understanding the nuances of WHY or HOW things are important. At one point, the Tulux diesel lube was possibly certified to ACEA, and clearly has been submitted to the API and subsequently approved. And because they still make it the same old way, they just presume that they can continue to make the same old claims.





For reference, look at these from various sources:
http://hd.valvoline.com/sites/default/files/20170228_premium_blue_8600_es_0.pdf
https://prodepc.blob.core.windows.net/epcblobstorage/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T_Triple_Protection_15W-40_(CJ-4)_(en-US)_TDS.pdf
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/88FB7D0788A68F2580257E2D004F5207/$File/BPXE-9VX5VU.pdf
Each of these (and about a bazillion other examples from well-managed companies) will have a document number (or name, or such) and a date (or revision, etc). That is ISO basic expectations 101, in laymen terms. Yet none of the Tulux products from the "Greatwall Lube Oil Company" I can find have such.

It's just a pervasive issue with Chinese business culture; they can regurgitate and recite stuff they hear, but they don't always know the how-to and why-for associated with the policies and procedures. And therefore, why would I blindly trust a product they make in Singapore, any more than anywhere else they might own a facility? Is it omission or commission? I cannot tell you. But therein lies the level of my skepticism. There are times I've been directly involved in having to deal with mistakes the Chinese business culture induced into my work world; some were by mistake, and frankly others I believe were their effort to short-cut stuff. Now, does that translate directly or indirectly to how GreatWall manages the Singapore facility? I cannot tell you; it's not in my job scope to worry about that. But my suspicions and skepticism are not relieved by the deeper look I just took!



Nothing wrong with trying it; just don't commit to a bulk buy without a little VOA/UOA experiment first. I don't see them offering quart or gallon jugs, so about the only way you'll know is to try this 5 gallon pail.

And like I said, just because they pass a license submittal and make the first batch right, does not mean they won't slip up somewhere else downstream on the calendar. (Either by accident or on purpose). My fears have been no less assuaged so far. While I suspect the lube it probably a decent product, the level of assurance comes into question. What they submit for approval and what we get in the jug may not be the same thing.



Caveat Emptor.




.
 
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dnewton3 knocks it out of the park with the above post! Great high-effort work, very informative read!
 
This is simple - I don't buy from companies that pretend to be companies when they got to be that size via a corrupt government that fouls the system for real companies - and their favorite business partners are, yeah - other corrupt government. Sure, they join all these free trade agencies to only circumvent them. And all this oil for infrastructure stuff ? They are building empty high rises - while all the cash is gone from the economy - all forms of cash in fact - so some of these places could easily wind up in flames. IMO - the only reason they are not bigger in the USA is also simple - it's called FCPA ...
 
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Originally Posted By: zeng
Your concerns turn out to be valid, indeed in this instant .
Maybe...I am willing to give benefit of the doubt over the paperwork. VOA/UOA would give better insight as Dave suggested.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: zeng
Your concerns turn out to be valid, indeed in this instant .
Maybe...I am willing to give benefit of the doubt over the paperwork. VOA/UOA would give better insight as Dave suggested.


I agree.

Out of sheer BITOG curiosity, it would be interesting to see a VOA and UOA on this.

The reality is that there's probably nothing wrong with it. It's worth it to play and see how it turns out. It's not like the engine is going to seize up after 3k miles using this stuff. The certs are outdated and the parent company has no idea of how to properly clear paperwork, etc.

The VOA puts your mind at east to put it in the crankcase. The UOA tells you how long it can stay there.
I'd run it about 3k miles and take a UOA just for the sake of self-satisfaction. If it looks good, then run it to the IOLM limit and test again.
 
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Sinopec will prob blend in the States in the near future, and still be using Chevron Oronite additives and Exxon Mobil base oils.
 
They are dumping US market. Prices are low for all products they sell with free shipping. We ordered drum of green antifreeze to compare. On Miami scale its at least 8 out of 10.
Here green antifreeze is water with green dye, without any sign of glycol. To bad companies which sell sino... products don't respond on any additional info requests. Most products claim the latest specs. Only labs can tell how well their products are holding up. Ordered couple totes of DEF fluid from them. Its hard to screw that one up, cause its just water and pee, but we'll see soon.
 
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