Should I buy a Hybrid?

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I haven't seen any hard facts about emissions on these cars. Are they significantly less polluting than their non-hybrid counterparts? (Civic LX / EX). If they are, then maybe you could also take the environment into consideration when making a purchase, instead of making it a 100% financial decision.



Theoretically, less fuel consumed would equal less pollution, correct?




The Prius is P-ZEV (Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle). Real world, I've been averaging just below 50 mpg overall. In other words, I'm going about 2x as far per gallon of gas as I was with my G35. So at least in my own case, you could say I'm having a positive environmental impact. Of course, if I was willing to drive something like an ultra-tiny gasser, I could achieve similar results (remember, on the inside, a Prius has ~90% of the interior volume of a Camry and more cargo volume).

Mike:

I neglected to answer your question. The answer is a resounding "maybe". I am constantly amused at how "analytically rigorous" everyone becomes when considering hybrids (gee, where are all the analysts when someone says they want a Corvette?). Bottom line is that for a slight cost premium (which presumably reflects the addition of the hybrid system) for the car, but unless you drive the car like a complete fool, you will realize a large increase in mpg, compared to similar-size/weight cars. And if you find a good used example, as I did, your break even mileage will be far below 30k per year.

Judge for yourself the fun factor. I am constantly entertained by the quest to refine driving technique to make the most of the car. This does not mean driving like a snail. The fun part is pulling off increased savings while staying with (or sometimes even passing) the other traffic. To me, my Prius has become in irresistable blend of transportation and gaming device (but I'm sure this isn't for everyone).
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Mike, you are too young for a Prius!

I think cars like the base model civic would be a very good blend of power, fuel efficiency, and young-ness. Nothing against the Prius, I test drive it and it was a pleasant car. But my young mind told me that it was too quiet, too soft, and plus a little funny looking. And don't buy a Jetta! I bought a brand new 2002 Jetta in 2002 and it was nothing but trouble. If that isn't bad enough, I keep finding AVON magazines on my car windshield.
 
I like my 2005 Jetta wagon now, a lot. I wasn't happy when I had stealership problems over a oil leaking engine though. But now on my last tank I had 835 miles on it when I filled the tank again. Somehow I have to believe that decreases greenhouse gas emissions (which will make up for my wood stove). I haven't had the Avon problem so far. You buy a new car for a lot of reasons, most of them emotional rather than practical. If buying a hybrid feels good to you for whatever reason, do it. My brother in law sure seems to like his Prius.
 
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Mike, you are too young for a Prius!

I think cars like the base model civic would be a very good blend of power, fuel efficiency, and young-ness. Nothing against the Prius, I test drive it and it was a pleasant car. But my young mind told me that it was too quiet, too soft, and plus a little funny looking. And don't buy a Jetta! I bought a brand new 2002 Jetta in 2002 and it was nothing but trouble. If that isn't bad enough, I keep finding AVON magazines on my car windshield.




NO! It is you SSQ who are too young for a Prius -- and that's OK, because it's for you to judge. I've seen young and old alike enjoying their Prii. If he decides the car is his "cup of tea," then he's not too young for it -- that's for him to judge. I hadn't really thought of the car in terms of young or old (as some cars are plainly meant to be viewed). It just happens to work for me under my present circumstances.
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Mike, you are too young for a Prius!

I think cars like the base model civic would be a very good blend of power, fuel efficiency, and young-ness. Nothing against the Prius, I test drive it and it was a pleasant car. But my young mind told me that it was too quiet, too soft, and plus a little funny looking. And don't buy a Jetta! I bought a brand new 2002 Jetta in 2002 and it was nothing but trouble. If that isn't bad enough, I keep finding AVON magazines on my car windshield.




NO! It is you SSQ who are too young for a Prius -- and that's OK, because it's for you to judge. I've seen young and old alike enjoying their Prii. If he decides the car is his "cup of tea," then he's not too young for it -- that's for him to judge. I hadn't really thought of the car in terms of young or old (as some cars are plainly meant to be viewed). It just happens to work for me under my present circumstances.
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Very good point. It's interesting the older I get, the more "young" I want to be.
 
I like the Latin. I wish I could have thought of that. Let's see, what is the plural of Jetta? Or is it plural? It's been too long since high school Latin classes. Oops, off topic.
 
On the current generation of hybrids available, how long is the warranty on the rechargable batteries? How long have you heard some people running them before needing new ones? How much do new batteries cost? The early production batteries didn't last long and were insanely expensive to replace. Just wondering whether a hybrid is even feasible if you put on > 40K miles per year.
 
I don't see any economic reason to buy a hybrid.
That leaves - eco choice or you are buying your way into the HOV lane for commute
 
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On the current generation of hybrids available, how long is the warranty on the rechargable batteries? How long have you heard some people running them before needing new ones? How much do new batteries cost? The early production batteries didn't last long and were insanely expensive to replace. Just wondering whether a hybrid is even feasible if you put on > 40K miles per year.




Battery wty is normally 7/100. There are several instances of Gen-II Prii approaching 250k miles on the original array. There have been a handful of early failures, esp in the Gen-I model (the very small sedan one). Most of these were not the batteries themselves, but rather, a result of corrosion in one or more connectors in the batt pack. Current accepted "wisdom" is that for the vast majority of Prii that roll off the assembly line, their HV array will last the life of the car.

Battery cost has been the source of more internet mythology than Elvis Presley (OK, maybe that's a small exaggeration...
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). If you had an out-of-wty Prius today, and needed a new battery, it would cost $2300 plus install labor (which isn't too intensive, actually). All this non-sense pervading the net about Prius batteries costing $7-10k is just that -- total nonsense. By the way, I specifically checked this before I bought a Prius. $2300 isn't like a package of "double As", but compare it to an auto trans rebuild (which you'll likely never experience in a Prius), and it's really not that bad.

Early batteries had the long wty too. Failures have been rare overall. These cars are not fragile. Yes, they are feasible.
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I don't see any economic reason to buy a hybrid.
That leaves - eco choice or you are buying your way into the HOV lane for commute




That's because you're not looking very hard. Generalizations like this are, with all due respect, virtually worthless. Whether or not the car makes strict economic sense for any particular buyer is totally defined by his or her pre-existing situation and the "delta" he or she will experience changing to a particular hybrid. I am a high-mileage driver who previously owned a gas sucking, high maintenance, high insurance Infiniti. Oh yeah, it makes sense for someone like me. For someone who already owns a young, healthy fuel sipper, no, it wouldn't make much sense. Oh yeah, I bought my Prius used - that'll toss your thoughtless magazine article "analysis" straight off into the "totally worthless" range.

You're also overlooking that there are plenty of other good reasons to buy and drive a Prius. I just like the thing -- it's fun, to me, and I enjoy playing its game.

Hey, if it's not your thing, fine, don't buy one. But don't pretend that your view of the car is the only way to look at one. It's not.
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"Mexico is in America"

Yes, but, independent and separate from the United States of America; just as Canada, USSR, Germany, China, etc.
 
I have to agree with ekpolk. I purchased a used 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid in 2005. Have I had any problems with it... sure but I have had more problems with my 2004 Intrepid. The Honda dealer also made a couple repairs, including labour, at no cost to me. Can't say that about the Chrysler dealer where I purchased the car new.
Everyone has to evaluate what is important to them. I believe that I am polluting less and saving money in the long run. I can drive three hours to Toronto and not get a sore back like I do in my Intrepid. My Civic was about half the price of a new one and about $1000. more than a used base Civic with similar mileage. However to compare apples to apples the hybrid has EX not DX options on it. It is also much quieter than the base model.
I just changed the brakes on both of my cars. The hybrid has 90000 kilometers and only needed front brake pads, while the Intrepid, with 60000 kilometers needed new rotors and pads on all four wheels. Major cost saving right there. I get about double the fuel mileage on the HCH over the Intrepid. Yes, the Intrepid is sportier and has more trunk space, but for 90 % of my driving the HCH is perfect. I drive about 70/30 city/highway.
In terms of fuel efficency, the best I have done is 82 miles per gallon (Imperial) and the worst was 39 mpg (again Imperial). The first one was all highway driving just below the speed limit and the second was all city driving in the winter in Southern Ontario, Canada.
I just don't get the big SUV thing. I would hazard a guess that 90% of these owners never drive off the pavement. Maybe someone can enlighten me!
I guess the next big question will be " Would I buy a new Honda Civic Hybrid?" I am not sure. I was able to get a very good deal on this car and in another ten years I would probably look for another used one at that time. Hopefully by then the car manufacturers will have us all set on hydrogen cars anyway.
I hope this helps to see the other side of the coin.
 
Check Edmunds, I believe they concluded that gas needs to be around 5.00 a gallon for the cost difference of a hybrid to be it (if you were to own for 5 years) If you going to own it longer than that, then yes gas can be cheaper.

On another note, did any of you see the "South Park" Episode where they were all driving hybrids? It was subtle but if you caught the back of the cars they had the Toyota emblem and the name of the car was "Pious" .... I laughed all night.
 
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Check Edmunds, I believe they concluded that gas needs to be around 5.00 a gallon for the cost difference of a hybrid to be it (if you were to own for 5 years) If you going to own it longer than that, then yes gas can be cheaper.

On another note, did any of you see the "South Park" Episode where they were all driving hybrids? It was subtle but if you caught the back of the cars they had the Toyota emblem and the name of the car was "Pious" .... I laughed all night.




The humor is funny, and so is Edmunds. Yep, there are more than a handful of Prius owners who own them for the symbolism of the car. So why is everyone acting as if this is some new and foolish concept. Corvettes, Suburbans, Supras, S-Class Benzes, and many more are cars for which the symbolism generated is as important as anything else for many owners. So why does everyone act as if the Prius (and other hybs) are the first cars anyone ever bought for the message they send. But hey, for the record, I really don't care what anyone thinks -- I like the car for its self, and the fuel savings.

And the Edmunds "analysis" is a joke too. Once again, the "value" of the car totally depends upon the circumstances of the buyer. For some folks, yep, a hyb will never make sense. Additionally, the morons at Edmunds (and R&T too, sadly) persist in assuming the Prius is a tiny car. Get in one and see for yourself. It's much roomier than a Corolla, very close to a Camry, and actually has slightly more cargo room than the Camry (mysteriously though, Prius cargo vol for 07 is now listed at 14.4, while it's been 16.1 previously, by contrast an SE 07 Camry is 14.5 cubic ft). It's a very clever packaging job, and it's totally misleading to compare it to gasser Corollas and Civics. And, as I asked before, why are hybrids the only cars that seem to trigger the "analytical reflex." If we're going to be consistently rigid, we should all be driving stripped CE model Corollas, DX Civics, or perhaps "base model" Cobalts. I got my fully loaded 04 Prius used (certified no less) for only $20k and drive almost 40k miles per year (and owned a guzzler before). Plug that into the Edmunds math and see what happens.
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I've got 61k on my 04 and not a single problem, averaging 50mpg with 75% interstate/25% city driving. Design of the car makes it especially appealing - I can haul a load of 8 ft. 2x4s with the hatch closed. Do that with a Corolla or Civic? Since I average 20k per year, I think it was the right choice for me. Do all the 'analysis' you want, but you have to be comfortable with the choice you make, and I certainly am. Shooting for 200k before I move up to a PHEV, maybe longer if the hybrid gods allow!
 
This article ought to work you up

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"Dear Valued Hybrid Customer -- We at the Toyota Motor Corporation are writing to address certain misconceptions that have arisen about your Toyota Prius model, which we are proud to note is driven by many celebrities, including Prince Charles and HBO's Larry David. Our pioneering gasoline-electric hybrid, introduced in 1999, has become an object of adoration to the world's enlightened car buyers. Our competitors, including America's Big Three, are rushing out hybrid vehicles of their own. Unconfirmed media reports say that we at Toyota intend to double our hybrid output to 500,000 vehicles next year. Along with other members of the auto industry, we will be lobbying for tax breaks and HOV privileges for hybrid vehicles. However, any romance entering its seventh year tends to go stale. Some purchasers have begun to question the practical value of our Hybrid Synergy Drive technology.

"You may be aware that a survey by Consumer Reports found that our vehicles achieve considerably less mileage (some 26% less) than the sticker rating implies. This has led to some unflattering media stories. Let us assure you that the Prius remains one of the most fuel-efficient cars on the road. Toyota applauds your willingness to spend $9,500 over the price of any comparable vehicle for the privilege of saving, at current gasoline prices, approximately $580 a year -- and should the price of gasoline rise to $5, after 10 years and/or 130,000 miles of driving, you might even come close to breaking even on your investment in hybrid technology." Yeah, so the price of gas would have to rise five bucks after ten years and/or you'd have to drive one of these things 130,000 miles to get back the overprice you paid to be technically and environmental correct. Now... "We recognize that our customers have an 'emotional' relationship with their vehicles. This transcends even the regrettable truth that driving a fuel-efficient car does not yield any substantial benefits for society if it doesn't save the owner money. [italics added] Contrary to any loose statements made by our marketing partners in the environmental community and media, petroleum not consumed by Prius owners is not 'saved.' It does not remain in the ground.

"It is consumed by someone else. Greenhouse pollutants are released. Also, please note that the warranty and owner's manual say nothing about reducing America's dependence on foreign oil. This is not an oversight. The Prius is an 'oil-dependent' vehicle. It runs on gasoline, supplied by the same world market that fuels other vehicles. The Toyota Corporation regrets any misunderstanding our marketing may inadvertently have caused (or may cause in the future)," and this is -- if I may take a brief pause here from reading the column, this is -- just classic because you know these people are out buying this car, think they're doing so much to "save the planet," and they're not. They're not saving themselves any money; they're not saving appreciable amounts of gasoline. The thing doesn't get the mileage that it has promised to get and besides somebody is using the oil anyway. They're not doing diddly-squat. Now... "We [at Toyota] share your belief that the days of the internal combustion engine are numbered. Further research by our economists suggests this will happen when the price of gasoline rises high enough to make alternative technologies cheaper than gasoline-powered cars. We at Toyota want you to know we recognize this effect and have taken steps to compensate with the rest of our vehicle lineup.



"Our 2006 Tundra pickup will be equipped with Toyota's new eight-cylinder engine, making it every bit as much of a gas guzzler as any American pickup. We are also redirecting our efforts to use our Hybrid Synergy Drive to increase power output rather than reduce gasoline consumption," because too many Prius owners are complaining it has no get-up-and-go, so we're going to get it more get-up-and-go and we're gonna use more gasoline but you can still be proud you're driving a Prius. "Take our new hybrid SUV, which produces 38 more horsepower but gets the same mileage as our conventional version. A New York Times reviewer wrote, 'One question lingers after driving the 2006 Lexus RX400h: How did it come to this, that Toyota is now selling a hybrid gas-electric vehicle with no tangible fuel economy benefits?' We hope this corrects any misimpression caused by our latest slogan ('Commute with Nature'). Hybrid technology is not 'green' technology. Like heated seats or flashy exterior trim, it's merely an expensive option that generates large markups for the Toyota Corporation and its dealers, [and we are thankful that you support both]. You will share our pride in the latest figures from J.D. Power & Associates, which show that the Prius continues to move off a dealer's lot in just eight days, compared to 36 days for a Honda Civic hybrid. Clearly, our customers are willing to pay handsomely for the privilege of showing themselves behind the wheel of so conspicuously virtuous a vehicle. But we are also a far-seeing corporation.

"We recognize that the Prius's distinctiveness may be a wasting asset for reasons outlined in this letter. Other motorists may see the Prius operator and think 'sucker.' Our lawyers advise us this may affect your car's resale value. Toyota regrets any inconvenience. We want you to know that Toyota remains committed to advancing hybrid technology just as long as our customers are willing to make it worth our while. Our esteemed competitor, Nissan's Carlos Ghosn, was recently quoted saying, 'There's such a buzz today that no CEO of a car manufacturer dares to say his real opinion of hybrid because he's accused of being retarded.' Another esteemed competitor, GM, has suggested that hybrid technology is best deployed in city buses, where large fuel consumption and stop-and-go driving might actually make it economically sensible. [Hybrid Buses Fail in Seattle] These are just two examples of the short-sighted, stick-in-the-mud marketing instincts of our fellow automakers that are helping to make Toyota the largest car company in the world. Yours Truly, the Toyota Corporation."




 
Mike:

Pretty amusing actually, where did this appear? I especially enjoyed the $9500 price delta part. I wonder who makes this stuff up? Desperate GM execs? Car comedians? Teenagers with too much time on their hands???
 
ek polk, I think your taking offense to what I posted. I dont think Hybrids are a bad idea, in your case its optimal. If you read the edmunds article they had, they were saying that it wasnt worth it unless gas was 5.00 a gallon (for the standard 15K miles a year) I couldnt see buying the older style prius that was based on the "Echo" platform. You could buy two or three echos for that price. Yes, if you are driving 40K miles a year then definately worth it.
 
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