SAE 16 == 0w-16?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
...Is the grading system a bit vague? Yes. But we should be careful what we emphasize as "big differences" IMHO, because I don't think that at normal startup temperatures, the difference between a 180 VI 0w-20 and a 220 VI 0w-20 falls under that category. The difference between a 180 VI 0w-20 and a 180 VI 0w30 @ 40C (44.2 vs 58.9) is 14.7 cSt and even that I wouldn't call big...


Just to inject a bit of automotive history, many of the big iron block Straight-eight's and V8's of the 50's speced 20W20 weight oils, so nothing is really new.


Yeah, I remember Doug posting about that quite a while ago, LOL! That's why I posted the picture of it above

 

[blackman777]

I thought in 1950s cars, the 20 weight was only specced for cold weather and 40 or 50 weight otherwise? --- I bet future oils will be 0w-12 and 0w-8 and 0w-4. Basically SAE will subdivide the chart is smaller chunks to allow more thin oils.

BTW what does straight grade SAE 0 look like? Water. Is it possible to make oil thinner than water? (I'm guessing not.)

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I thought in 1950s cars, the 20 weight was only specced for cold weather and 40 or 50 weight otherwise? --- I bet future oils will be 0w-12 and 0w-8 and 0w-4. Basically SAE will subdivide the chart is smaller chunks to allow more thin oils.

BTW what does straight grade SAE 0 look like? Water. Is it possible to make oil thinner than water? (I'm guessing not.)









There is no straight SAE 0, it doesn't exist. Just like SAE 16 didn't exist until recently.

According to Wikipedia:

Quote:
water viscosity goes from 1.79 cP to 0.28 cP in the temperature range from 0 °C to 100 °C

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
...Is the grading system a bit vague? Yes. But we should be careful what we emphasize as "big differences" IMHO, because I don't think that at normal startup temperatures, the difference between a 180 VI 0w-20 and a 220 VI 0w-20 falls under that category. The difference between a 180 VI 0w-20 and a 180 VI 0w30 @ 40C (44.2 vs 58.9) is 14.7 cSt and even that I wouldn't call big...


Just to inject a bit of automotive history, many of the big iron block Straight-eight's and V8's of the 50's speced 20W20 weight oils, so nothing is really new.

Even for cars built in the 70's and 80's the 20W-20 grade was still spec'd as an option for fall, winter and spring use.
For my first car, a '72 Ford Capri, 20W-20 was spec'd for ambient temp's from 25F to 70F. My '86 Porsche has similar recommendation for the 20W-20 grade from -10C (14F) to 15C (60F).
Interestingly enough the 5W-20/30 grades were specified for my Capri only for sub-freezing temps from 32F down to -40.
Much the same for my Porsche with the 5W-20 grade from -10C (14F) and lower and a dino 5w30 from -30C (22F) to 32F.
The 20W-20 grade had fallen out favour by that time because the now common 10w30 grade had much better cold start performance, spec'd down to -25C (13F) although only up to 70F for both of these European cars.

Obviously manufacturers didn't have a lot of confidence in light multi-grade mineral oils of the day.
Porsche spec'd a 0w30 up to 30C (86F).

 

[A_Harman]

If there is an SAE spec for 0W oil, I suppose it is theoretically possible to make one. The only other requirement for W-grade oils after meeting the low-temperature viscosity specs is that they have to have at least 3.8cP viscosity at 100C.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I bet future oils will be 0w-12 and 0w-8 and 0w-4. Basically SAE will subdivide the chart is smaller chunks to allow more thin oils.


The SAE is already planning for 12 and 8-weight oils. I recently talked to one of my European customers that is testing an engine with 12-weight oil. (My heart skipped a beat.) The 12 and 8 grades will make steps down in HTHS to 2.0 for 12 grade and 1.7 for 8 grade. It seems possible that the 12 grade could exist within bottom third (5.6-6.8) of the 20-weight kinematic viscosity range of 5.6 to 9.3. The vast majority of current 20 weights fall in the upper third (8.1-9.3), and the 16 weight probably slots in the middle third (6.8-8.1). It seems like they'll need to create a lower KV range for 8 grade.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Have they been testing 12 weight oil long enough to see what are any effects of it?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
...Is the grading system a bit vague? Yes. But we should be careful what we emphasize as "big differences" IMHO, because I don't think that at normal startup temperatures, the difference between a 180 VI 0w-20 and a 220 VI 0w-20 falls under that category. The difference between a 180 VI 0w-20 and a 180 VI 0w30 @ 40C (44.2 vs 58.9) is 14.7 cSt and even that I wouldn't call big...


Just to inject a bit of automotive history, many of the big iron block Straight-eight's and V8's of the 50's speced 20W20 weight oils, so nothing is really new.


SBC recommendations from downunder for 1968-70...a lot of those grades apparently WERE available back in the day.

 

[OVERKILL]

Do I see SAE 5w10 up there????

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
It seems possible that the 12 grade could exist within bottom third (5.6-6.8) of the 20-weight kinematic viscosity range of 5.6 to 9.3.

SAE16 already occupies the bottom third of the old 0w20 grade. Therefore SAE12 would be a whole new "thin" that has never existed before.

One of these days manufacturers will literally make oil as thin as water. Perhaps they'll say "you need no oil" in order to boost MPGs (just some anti wear additives)

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Have they been testing 12 weight oil long enough to see what are any effects of it?


Yeah, if you look in interesting articles, there's a heap of stuff, including from Honda where they are testing lower.

Invariably, when looking lower, they are redesigning engines with greater bearing swept surface areas and lower radial clearances to make these new lubes work...not backspeccing on existing designs.

Interesting with the new grade below 20...20s will now be able to shear out of grade...

http://www.linkedin.com/groups/New-visco...ck=.gna_4146469

 

[CATERHAM]

SAE16 already occupies the bottom third of the old 0w20 grade./quote]
Yes in terms of kinematic viscosity but not HTHSV.
The intent of the SAE grade is that the HTHSV will be below the minimum 2.6cP of the SAE 20 grade. Since it is only Honda (and Toyota perhaps later) that are planning on offering a 0W-16, I'm sure their oil will be at the 2.3cP grade minimum.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Not even the best example for high-VI, high-vis products, but consider the following:
SpectraSyn 100 - 170VI, 1240cSt@40, 100cSt@100.
"oh, nice VI, where you from?"

Nice try, but one is merely a PAO base stock and not even a finished oil.

I wouldn't use the former in my engine at all, regardless of temperatures.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Just to inject a bit of automotive history, many of the big iron block Straight-eight's and V8's of the 50's speced 20W20 weight oils, so nothing is really new.


Yeah and ran 160* thermostats in summer & 180* in winter...

If we could run engines that cool today everyone would probably be using a 0W-16/20...

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Have they been testing 12 weight oil long enough to see what are any effects of it?


Yeah, if you look in interesting articles, there's a heap of stuff, including from Honda where they are testing lower.

Interesting with the new grade below 20...20s will now be able to shear out of grade...

http://www.linkedin.com/groups/New-visco...ck=.gna_4146469


Quoting from the link that Shannow supplied:

The new grade's kinematic viscosity limits were set at 6.1 mm2/s minimum to s maximum, at 100 degrees C. Its minimum high-temperature high-shear rate viscosity is 2.3 mPa·sec at 150 C. These limits got the official nod from the SAE Fuels & Lubricants Council, which is headed by Jim Linden of General Motors, at its Dec. 5 meeting in Norfolk, Va.

As well, Covitch pointed out, the updated SAE J300 standard will require tweaking the kinematic viscosity limit at 100 C for SAE 20 engine oils. The current minimum KV100 limit for SAE xW-20 oils is 5.6 mm2/s, but that will rise to 6.9 mm2/s when the revised standard is published in April.

So the SAE is creating an overlap of KV between 16 and 20 grades. The 20-grade min KV is now 6.9, but the max 16-grade KV can be 8.2. The distinguishing characteristic for oils falling in the overlap zone will be HTHS. And with the lower end of 16-grade being at 6.1, that does make it look like the range for 12-grade will go below the bottom of the old 20-grade. And presumably the upper end of 12-grade will overlap the lower end of 16-grade. (Is all this giving anybody but me a headache?)

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Have they been testing 12 weight oil long enough to see what are any effects of it?


I didn't ask any follow-up questions about that because it was not the main topic of the meeting. If they really wanted to know if 12-grade was going to cause a problem, they could run a 200-hour full power test at 150C oil temperature and find out within a couple of weeks.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Invariably, when looking lower, they are redesigning engines with greater bearing swept surface areas and lower radial clearances to make these new lubes work...not backspeccing on existing designs.



It seems that if engines are being redesigned with larger bearing areas and lower clearances, that would be increasing engine friction. But assuming that the auto manufacturers already know that, maybe they are reducing the parasitic drag of the oil pump enough to more than offset that.

 

[blackman777]

It's not giving me a headache but it does make me think 400,000 mile cars will be a thing of the past. Engines will simply wear-out faster. And I doubt we'll be reading "2020 Civic hits 1 million miles" someday, if it's running oil as thin as water (0w12).

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
And I doubt we'll be reading "2020 Civic hits 1 million miles" someday, if it's running oil as thin as water (0w12).

And how many 1 million miles stories are there today? You can count them on the fingers of one hand. So even if that number goes down to 0 (and that's a big 'if'), do you really think most people will care? Making it to 1 million miles is not what an average customer cares about when car shopping, and the manufacturers know that.

 

[A_Harman]

I'm not fundamentally opposed to thinner oils. But I think the pursuit of "thin" has gone too far when the engineers are depending on the formation of tribological films on the bearings to prevent wear because the oil film thickness is too small to prevent metal-metal contact. If I were chief engineer of Engine X, I would decree that the bearings operate in full hydrodynamic lubrication up to 150C on the normal recommended oil. Then the tribo films could be depended on to give protection during marginal lubrication conditions. This is how robust systems are engineered.