Running 2-stroke gas in all equipment

[txmatt]

quote:

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Originally posted by blano:
A little two cycle oil isnt going to have any effect on emmisions at all. Unburnt hydrocarbons are unburnt hydrocarbons wether they are composed of gasoline or two cycle oil. Besides cars today burn very hot and will combust any oil present. What HC are not burnt get combusted by the cat con.

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I guess I was assuming we were talking about using these in devices/vehicles without cat converters (since a couple people mentioned only having to have one gas can).

It seems a fuel/oil mixture would burn less completely and have more unburnt byproduct than fuel only.

It's also been mentioned before that fuel additives could be responsible for oil contamination and the unpredicatble effect that could have on lubrication properties.

I just don't see having an extra gas can as much hardship to run the recommended fuel. Maybe in some commercial application where you have a huge tank that would be expensive to buy another one. But for a homeowner it's not a big deal. I personally have three: one for 32:1, one for 50:1, and one for just gas.

Matt

 

[Cujet]

Did you guys know that there is a line of 4 stroke engines designed to run on premix, so the sump is eliminated. Shindawa claims that the oil in the gas does not affect the emissions compliance of the engines. They are rated quite highly by EPA standards.

Chris

 

[Mic]

quote:

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Originally posted by txmatt:

I just don't see having an extra gas can as much hardship to run the recommended fuel. Maybe in some commercial application where you have a huge tank that would be expensive to buy another one. But for a homeowner it's not a big deal. I personally have three: one for 32:1, one for 50:1, and one for just gas.

Matt

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I am a homeowner. I have a chain saw, leaf blower, small snowblower for the decks, hedge trimmer, and a weed wacker. I found myself with too many gas cans. Some of the mixes took long periods of time to use up.

I finally went with a 32:1 ratio for all. I do not use a premix for any of my 4 cycle equipment.

Is it a hardship or big deal to have all of those gas cans? No! IMO it is rediculous.

Jeff

 

[TLS]

I've been using Amsoil 100:1 Synthetic 2 stroke oil mixed to 80:1 for 4 seasons now in ALL my 2 stroke equipment. From 16:1 Chainsaws to 50:1 trimmers. No more smoke, more power, and no negatives so far. I would go nuts with 3-4 different cans for each ratio. Thats rediculous!

I have used mixed fuel briefly in regular equipment 2x's in a pinch. Both times they smoked while running until it was diluted with gas. I would think that it would lead to carbon buildup in LONG TERM usage.

If your concerned about your employees using straight gas in 2 stroke equipment...Use regular gas cans that the SPOUT is TOO large for the small 2 stroke gas tank openings.

 

[blano]

If you are getting smoke with most any oil it is becasue the machine is not tuned properly. Todays oils are low smoke. I could run my OPE at 16:1 and not get smoke. As far as the more power claim. Sounds like bs to me.

 

[UncleS2]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cujet:
Did you guys know that there is a line of 4 stroke engines designed to run on premix, so the sump is eliminated. Shindawa claims that the oil in the gas does not affect the emissions compliance of the engines. They are rated quite highly by EPA standards.

Chris

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Stihl has a line of 4 cycle sumpless engines coming out also. I didn't know Shindaiwa already had this feature.

 

[TLS]

quote:

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Originally posted by blano:
I could run my OPE at 16:1 and not get smoke. As far as the more power claim. Sounds like bs to me.

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NOT BS. Burning oil doesn't make power....Burning GAS does.

What kind of equipment is an OPE?

Running 16:1 will certainly SMOKE in almost ANY 2 stroke engine, and DEFINATELY will in a 4 stroke.

Forgot to mention, cleaning out exhaust ports from carbon buildup is now a thing of the past.

 

[blano]

OPE=outdoor power equipment. I run everything at 32:1. I machines do not smoke at all, and do not have any buildup in the ports. More oil actually does make more power. Check out the sae website and you will see. Why dont you put a smaller oil pan on your car/truck and only use a quart and a half of oil?

 

[TLS]

A smaller oil pan in my truck has nothing to do with the proper mixture, or lack thereof of a two stroke engine in OPE.

By running a DESIGNED 50:1 engine at a 32:1 mixture will not do ANYTHING but contribute to more: Smoke, Carbon, and pollutants. Running it at 50:1 or more, will provide more power, less smoke, and less carbon buildup. I've run both, and can speak from PERSONAL experience.

 

[blano]

By running a DESIGNED 50:1 engine at a 32:1 mixture will not do ANYTHING but contribute to more: Smoke, Carbon, and pollutants. Running it at 50:1 or more, will provide more power, less smoke, and less carbon buildup. I've run both, and can speak from PERSONAL experience."
Smoke and carbon are a product of the base oil and additive packaged used. Good oils do not smoke or allow carbon to build up. In order for a oil to pass jaso fc and iso egd specs it must not smoke at 16:1 and it must provide for clean engine internals also. As far as pollutants go. The pollution that comes form a two cycle is caused by unburnt HC. It matters not if they(hc's) are oil or gas. 100:1 ratios do not pollute any less. If we could post pictures on this site I would post some pics of high hour ope engines with very slite internal deposits while being ran on a 32:1 ratio. The idea of less oil being better is beyond me, not to mention the fact that your warranty is bye-bye at that ratio.

 

[Cujet]

TLS, I do have the experience and testing results that back up the claim that more oil produces more power in 2 strokes. This has been a racing industry secret for about 30 years.

My personal experience comes from our Mercury Marine race team where we tested and tested until we came up with an ideal oil ratio.

We tested lab engines, a large number of outboards and a few motorcycle engines. The results always point to an oil ratio of 16 to 1 as the MINIMUM oil ratio for max power. Ratio's nearing 4 to 1 were tried, and yielded the highest output. However to go to such extremes creates other significant issues.

The results point to zero deposits with such rich oil ratios also.

In addition, the quantity of fuel burned remains unchanged. So the extra oil is in addition to the fuel required for a given airflow.

Chris

 

[joee12]

A big secret in the boating world is to run more oil than the recommended 50:1 ratio in outboard motors. Many people with oil injection will add oil to the gas to make the mixture of oil more concentrated. -Joe

 

[TLS]

I don't want you guys to think that I am a troll.

I am simply speaking from personal experience on these conditions.

I will add, that MOST of my experience is in 2 stroke Chainsaws, String trimmers, blowers, and Lawnboys.

The Chainsaw (16:1) oil brand was Poulan brand and it's been at least 15 years since I've run it. It smoked. And it would smoke in ANY of the above engines.

Next comes Lawnboy brand oil (32:1). Its been about 10 years since I used that. It smoked in the Lawnboy and when used in the trimmers and blowers, it smoked in them too.

Then comes Echo brand (50:1)oil. This was by far the BEST thing coming down the road for me 10 years ago. Smoke was down, especially in the Lawnboy and the blowers, and Monthly cleaning of the Lawnboy sparkplug and scraping out the exhaust port were now moved to twice a season.

Then about 4 years ago I tried some Amsoil 100:1 Synthetic mix. I was leary of the high ratio, and with my gas can only able to hold 5 gallons (not the specified 6) I went with 80:1. What a difference. Noticably more power. Just about NO smoke, and I now only change plugs yearly and haven't had ANY carbon buildup that hinders performance.

I'm NOT a fan of Amsoil's marketing, but I do believe they offer a few good products.

Now, I haven't tried Amsoil at 16:1, but if I had to make a bet (and I'm NOT a betting man) I would say it would smoke MORE at that mixture than at 80:1, NO? Can we agree on that? Or are these NEWER oils capable of no smoke/no carbon even at LOW ratios? Since I've never experimented with low ratios RECENTLY, I am only speculating.

BTW, now that were totally OFF TOPIC, why keep bringing up Marine engines into a LAWN & SMALL ENGINE equipment Forum?


Also....why no post email notification?

 

[TooSlick]

TLS,

There no secret why you can safely mix the Amsoil two stoke at 100:1 ...

1) It's not significantly diluted with "stoddard solvent" as I've mentioned numerous times. If it helps, you can think of it as a 75:1 oil. That's how much solvent it takes to get petroleum "bright stock" to be miscible in gas. Bright stock is a very high molecular weight cut of petroleum oil (typically 150 Cst), that provides good wear protection but does not burn cleanly.

2) The nominal film strength of organic esters is > 3000 psi in shear, vs about 600-700 psi for petroleum lubes. So you simply don't need much oil to get excellent wear protection - and compression.

I've been using and selling this oil for about 10 years and it works extremely at 100:1 in air cooled motors. (Yes, the Series 2000 mixed @ 50:1 is even better, but twice as expensive.) The 100:1 oil was one of the first Amsoil synthetics introduced in 1973 and to say it's well proven would be an understatement. Amsoil sponsered boats were a dominant force in offshort powerboat racing in the late 1970's and early 1980's; running an earlier version of this formulation - feel free to look it up. I will admit they were using richer mix ratios in those custom built Mercs - more like 50:1 or 60:1, instead of 100:1.

Are there more modern synthetic two stroke oils that burn clean at richer mix ratios? Of course - but that does nothing to diminish the performance of the 100:1 formulation. It will most certainly outperform any petroleum two stroke oil I've ever seen; mixed @ 50:1.

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics

 

[blano]

TLS, Now I understand where you are comeing from. the oils you have used in the past are pretty poor(poluan, LB). Echo oil is decent, but it has been upgraded many times in the ten years since you ran it.

Tooslick, The amount of bright stock present in modern two cycle oils is nil. ISO EGD and Jaso FC oils have no brightstock. Instead the replace it with PIB or with straight ester formulas.

I would also be very supprised if 100:1 doesnt contain at least a small amount of solvent. High temp esters need some solvent to mix properly also.
As far as the sheer comment goes. I dont think shear strengthis a issue with a two cycle engine. Petro oils can be made to protect fine. Its the deposit formation the kills them and alot of wear in a two stroke is caused by deposit formation.

[ November 26, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: blano ]

 

[TooSlick]

The flash point of the Amsoil 100:1, premix is 507F, but the pour point is only -17F. It's a blend of several, high molecular weight esters to provide good wear protection.

As for "modern oils", what I find is most homeowners haven't got a clue and run 87 octane fuel, mixed with the cheapest department brand two stroke oil they can find. I've seen a number of folks also run low quality, TC-W3 oils in these air cooled trimmers, blowers, chain saws, etc. So of course they get horrible results and the engines clog up after a few seasons ....Take a look in the back room of any small engine shop and it's loaded with trimmers and blowers that won't start in the spring and chain saws that won't start in the fall ....

The Amsoil 100:1, pre-mix does wonders for these types of customers ....

 

[Cujet]

The age old argument has been that many 2 stroke oils have some sort of solvent.

Make sure to disregard that supposed fact, as the engineeres that designed the oil know what they are doing. I tried to evaporate the solvent on MX2t oil without success. So if it has any, I was unable to detect it.

In addition, solvent is listed on the MSDS for other reasons, including trade secret reasons. As many of you know, oil can be a solvent.

Chris