run straight coolant - NO water

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Per Henry's '31 instructions, I run only distilled water with no anti-freeze.

It's unpressurized, of course, but a shot of 'anti-rust' additive goes in for good measure.

ModelARadiator.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Al


Turtlevette: Are you an M.E. if so you should be ablle to come to the samej conclusion as me...
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I'm not sure what your conclusion is.

let's try examples:

2 identical cars, both on the highway with the same load. Creating the same amount of energy.

1. pure antifreeze. Engine block stabilizes at 240F, radiator stabilizes at 180f. You have a delta T across system of 60F because of the poor conductive heat transfer of pure coolant. Ie you have a delta T of 60 across the coolant.

2. pure water. Engine block stabilizes at 200F, radiator stabilizes at 180F. You have a delta T across system of only 20F because of the good conductive heat transfer of pure coolant.

Because the temperature of the radiator fins are 180F in both cases, they both transfer the same amount of heat to the atmosphere. Both of these systems are balanced.
 
Well, it's a lot more complicated than that. People model these things and there are at least 20 different parameters that go into the models.

Heat conductivity and capacity of the coolant are both factors but the question is how big. I don't think you will see anywhere near a 40 °F difference in steady state.

These guys did some calculation. It can either be done analytically or by simulation. However, they only studied the 50% mix:

http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jmce/papers/RDME-Volume2/RDME-11.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I don't think you will see anywhere near a 40 °F difference in steady state.



You'd almost have to. Or else pure coolant overheating argument doesn't work. I've experienced it myself.
 
Depends what the "cooling system" is trying to achieve.

In an engine, the coolant is trying to protect engine components, dimensions, and materials...

Transferring heat from the combustion chamber to the environment is antagonistic to fuel consumption, which is primary to the efficient use of the fuel in a street engine, but a necessary evil when it comes to keeping the metals in the combustion chamber cool enough to prevent end gas autoignition (or knock)...or pre-ignition which is worse.

Al's right, the thermal capacity of the unit is dependent on what can be moved to atmosphere, the heat sink to which all waste heat must go...and the problem is that the unit will reach a thermal equilibrium that will shift that much heat.

The interfaces that the heat has to pass through, in reverse order are
Ambient air/Radiator material ... radiator thickness ... radiator material/coolant ... coolant thermal capacity ... coolant/cast iron(or alu) .... cast iron thickness ... cast iron to hot gasses.

There's a spot in the middle for a thermostat which divides/isolates the two systems, and the function/location of that has a BIG impact on where heat rejection takes place.

So picking a constant coolant temperature, which is what a thermostat does as the control element, the metal temperatures in and around the combustion chamber will be higher running antifreeze mix than straight water.

This will be disadvantageous to engine knock, but better for heat loss and thermal efficiency...which wins will be determined by particular engine design parameters and tuning...

It's why I dislike water wetter advertised for street vehicles, it lowers the deltaT's and moves more heat out...and dropping the coolant concentration in summer would do largely the same.
 
I remember water pump lubes. It used to be at a local auto parts store, if you bought a can of lube along with a pump, you got a lifetime warranty on the pump. That's about the best argument I've found for WP lube. I haven't used any in... 25 years I guess.

Originally Posted By: MalfunctionProne
If you live desert... use water, and a WP (Water Pump) lube. Or WW (Water Wetter.)

Versus:
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Doesn't coolant also lubricate the water pump?

No i doesn't. In fact the seals used in a modern water pump are specifically designed to resist ethylene glycol.
The bearing is sealed and the coolant/antifreeze plays no role at all as far as the seal or bearing is concerned, not even to preserve the seal in some way.

http://www.skf.com/group/products/seals/...eals/index.html

Hmm, which one to believe? I think I've made my choice!
 
You need a 50/50 or close to that coolant lubes, prevents freeze ups, helps prevent boil overs, helps prevents rust and other things also Like catching fire (i was told this when i was in high school auto shop)
 
Water wetter and similar products are extremely useful on tracks where antifreeze is disallowed. On the street it is not so useful.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Don't do it. Straight coolant doesn't transfer heat has well as 50/50 coolant and distilled water.


Gotcha'. How about the people that live in cooler climates, other than south Texas, Cali and Arizona?

I can see places like Phoenix where summer temps are over 100F on a regular basis. Yes 50/50 sounds better there.

slomo
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Doesn't coolant also lubricate the water pump?

No i doesn't. In fact the seals used in a modern water pump are specifically designed to resist ethylene glycol.
The bearing is sealed and the coolant/antifreeze plays no role at all as far as the seal or bearing is concerned, not even to preserve the seal in some way.

http://www.skf.com/group/products/seals/...eals/index.html


OP
Straight coolant is is not very effective it is supposed to be mixed to be most effective. 50/50 mix with distilled or deionized water is the most efficient mixture.
electrolysis is a serious issue and is even a bigger problem with so many dissimilar metals and additional electrical components being used in cars and engines.

Product like water Wetter and similar are for racing so the engines can take advantage of waters better heat transfer, while it may offer some corrosion inhibitors its primary job is to reduce surface tension of the water and prevent cavitation in the heads.
Not really for everyday usage.

http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/cooling/electolysis/










Isn't the proper mix with drinking water, not distilled?

slomo
 
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
You will over heat if you run straight coolant unless you're system is older and oversized for the job.

Most everything I've seen made within the last 15+ years doesn't have oversized cooling systems due to emissions standards. Interesting enough my Taurus seems to have a much larger radiator than needed and it's a 99. My Buick is undersized If anything.

You need water at least 30% for proper heat transfer.



Another poster said he ran 100% coolant in a Mazda 6 think it was, no issues. Can you post pictures of your personal experience, over heating and 100% coolant?

slomo
 
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Warstud
A guy I work with put straight anti-freeze in his car. And when we left work one night it was about ten degrees outside. His car ran for about 20 minutes until it burned up. The same retard decided to run straight 30wt in a car the following year...under the same conditions. Guess what happend?


Yep same thing happend to a co worker same story. I tried to explain to him it needed to be 50% water in his system but he kept insisting he called the dealership and got the correct anti freeze and they told him to put full strength in it. HE overheated in the dead of winter last year when it was -15F with straight anti freeze.

He also had trouble cranking the car in these temperatures because he refused to use the proper 5w30 oil his car called for insisting on 10w40.



So in the above vehicle, when was the last coolant flush? Or has any cooling system maintenance ever been done on that over heating vehicle? It over heated at -15F, something else has to be assisting here. Clogged radiator core? Water pump impeller dead?

I could cardboard off my entire grill opening at -15F and still not over heat. Now if the temp warmed up, different story.

slomo
 
Originally Posted By: slomo
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: Warstud
A guy I work with put straight anti-freeze in his car. And when we left work one night it was about ten degrees outside. His car ran for about 20 minutes until it burned up. The same retard decided to run straight 30wt in a car the following year...under the same conditions. Guess what happend?


Yep same thing happend to a co worker same story. I tried to explain to him it needed to be 50% water in his system but he kept insisting he called the dealership and got the correct anti freeze and they told him to put full strength in it. HE overheated in the dead of winter last year when it was -15F with straight anti freeze.

He also had trouble cranking the car in these temperatures because he refused to use the proper 5w30 oil his car called for insisting on 10w40.



So in the above vehicle, when was the last coolant flush? Or has any cooling system maintenance ever been done on that over heating vehicle? It over heated at -15F, something else has to be assisting here. Clogged radiator core? Water pump impeller dead?

I could cardboard off my entire grill opening at -15F and still not over heat. Now if the temp warmed up, different story.

slomo


Straight ethylene glycol freezes at about +10F(-12C). The above cars overheated because the coolant in the radiator was frozen and no circulation could take place.

It's the chemical nature of a coolant/water mix that allows the low freezing points.

Ed
 
Originally Posted By: slomo
Isn't the proper mix with drinking water, not distilled?

No. Always use distilled water unless your local tap water is very low in minerals (such as from the Great Lakes). There is no reason to load down the chelation agents in the coolant right from the start. Bottled drinking water usually has minerals added for taste.
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Straight ethylene glycol freezes at about +10F(-12C). The above cars overheated because the coolant in the radiator was frozen and no circulation could take place.

It's the chemical nature of a coolant/water mix that allows the low freezing points.

Yep.

Here is one of my favorite graphs. Every once in a while you get someone saying that they use straight coolant in Alaska due to the cold, or some silly post like that. This graph shows why that is a very bad idea:

freezept.gif
 
Originally Posted By: slomo
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
You will over heat if you run straight coolant unless you're system is older and oversized for the job.

You need water at least 30% for proper heat transfer.

Another poster said he ran 100% coolant in a Mazda 6 think it was, no issues. Can you post pictures of your personal experience, over heating and 100% coolant?

No need for personal experience when actual science will show you why. Here is (yet another) reason why straight coolant is a bad idea.

BTW, all this comes from this site https://hellafunctional.com/?p=629

cp.gif
 
Originally Posted By: slomo
Can we do this safely? Pros and cons for why and why not please.

Seems like if we stop using water there will be no corrosion issues. Only thing left is heat transfer.

How about that Evan's Waterless Coolant?

slomo


You have signs of corrosion?
 
Given that a decent portion of the heat transfer in the high heat flux areas is nucleate boiling, waterless is a bad idea (so is water wetter)
 
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