Exactly!!
Redline 5W30, 5300 miles, BMW X5 4.4 V8
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I guess my point is that sometimes theory and practice do not add up. I understand that from a construction analysis point of view Redline looks like a great oil, and I'm certainly not accussing anyone of being a paid shill for Redline.
My point is that the data we have available here on BITOG does not seem to correlate well with the hypothesis: "Redline is a terrific motor oil".
There are oils which seem to quite consistently turn in excellent UOA results including German Castrol, Schaeffers, etc.
One hypothesis that has been discussed here often is the notion that Redline is a great oil and that it cleans out junk left behind by previous motor oils. Is there some kind of detergency effectiveness test which can demonstrate or refute this hypothesis?
John
There are very few if any UOAs of redline in a motor run on redline for 3 or 4 OCIs. Everyone try it then dumps it after the first sample at 5k isn't zero accross the board. I trust Terry that the #s will improve over multiple OCIs
Are you suggesting that Redline users are much more prone to poor sampling technique than are users of other motor oils?
I can understand discounting this particular report based on sampling technique, but the logical leap being made in the quoted statement does not pass muster.
John
Is the flash point fact or is it an assumption it is correct ? Is Flash point values from any lab always correct ? Is there any measure of possibility it is not correct ?
The main fact I see here is additional information was given about the sampling procedure that certainly might have changed the initial thoughts and postings by others before they had a chance to see the additional information posted later and obviously prior to your post .
[ May 06, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
The only RL user with multiple UOA's I can think of is Tyrolkids. Check his 5W40 UOA's. Exceptional is an understatement IMO. Also I ran RL 5W30 in an Outback 2.5 after running high detergent Delvac 1 and an Auto-Rx clean and it became black very quickly. 'deep cleaning' is maybe the way to describe it.
Guys, I have posted what I can afford to post here for years now.
I read the analysis results and understand them, unless you are a customer my interest in converting you to a specific brand or chemistry
( after seeing your needs through analysis) is limited to my good nature and time in sharing here at BITOG.
POE bases are more expensive , thus the PAO and others less costly are used in the oils you list above. Amsoils costs are artificially bumped up by the marketing technique not just the ingredients. I am seeing a positive trend in Amsoil that I hope remains in that they are reformulating to bring back the solvency of the 80's!
Both Amsoils and Redlines tech departments are questionable when it comes to sharing fact about analysis results and formulations( mostly through ignorance I suspect and concern for proprietary issues).
If you can derive a TBN level out of a oil that is spent of adds then that says the base oils are naturally protecting against acidity.RL does that.
RL is mostly POE with a mix of PAO and others and still has reserve acid neutralization capabilty based on every test posted here.
RL starts at a lower TBN like Schaeffers but is more stable in retention and the rate of degredation. Effective TBN and rate of degredation is more important than just looking at a scaled digit on a report, you've got to read/intepret the whole result.
RL shear rates based on proprietary independent lab tests are better than any available OTS motor oils that I have seen, bar none.
For you proof, ASTM D 5275 on RL 10w-30 12/12/2000 = 1.3%
Amsoil ATM = 6.81%
M1 Advanced = 0 % can't get this anymore
M1 Tri Syn = 0.78% can't get this anymore
Would be happy to update those values for the newest of these oils for $5000.
One reason that the oils like M1"look" good is that they do NOT have the natural solvency that A POE or Diester based oil does thus will chemically bypass the carbon deposits that may be embedded internally.
Reason Auto-RX works so well for any engine and any oil that has been used.
GC is using a PAO blend with some German bases that also are very lubricious and that is under the microscope right now for paying customers.
Terry
[ May 07, 2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
I read the analysis results and understand them, unless you are a customer my interest in converting you to a specific brand or chemistry
( after seeing your needs through analysis) is limited to my good nature and time in sharing here at BITOG.
POE bases are more expensive , thus the PAO and others less costly are used in the oils you list above. Amsoils costs are artificially bumped up by the marketing technique not just the ingredients. I am seeing a positive trend in Amsoil that I hope remains in that they are reformulating to bring back the solvency of the 80's!
Both Amsoils and Redlines tech departments are questionable when it comes to sharing fact about analysis results and formulations( mostly through ignorance I suspect and concern for proprietary issues).
If you can derive a TBN level out of a oil that is spent of adds then that says the base oils are naturally protecting against acidity.RL does that.
RL is mostly POE with a mix of PAO and others and still has reserve acid neutralization capabilty based on every test posted here.
RL starts at a lower TBN like Schaeffers but is more stable in retention and the rate of degredation. Effective TBN and rate of degredation is more important than just looking at a scaled digit on a report, you've got to read/intepret the whole result.
RL shear rates based on proprietary independent lab tests are better than any available OTS motor oils that I have seen, bar none.
For you proof, ASTM D 5275 on RL 10w-30 12/12/2000 = 1.3%
Amsoil ATM = 6.81%
M1 Advanced = 0 % can't get this anymore
M1 Tri Syn = 0.78% can't get this anymore
Would be happy to update those values for the newest of these oils for $5000.
One reason that the oils like M1"look" good is that they do NOT have the natural solvency that A POE or Diester based oil does thus will chemically bypass the carbon deposits that may be embedded internally.
Reason Auto-RX works so well for any engine and any oil that has been used.
GC is using a PAO blend with some German bases that also are very lubricious and that is under the microscope right now for paying customers.
Terry
[ May 07, 2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
Terry, thanks for sharing what you can with us. I understand you can't reveal all your knowledge for free.
I have a question regarding the above comment. Are you saying basically that in some cases a Mobil 1 UOA is not picking up the carbon deposits that an oil like Redline would, therefore showing less wear but leaving your engine less clean? That is how I interpreted that.
Also, doesn't the quote below relate to RL? The AN-5 blend was less polar and so the additives worked better.
[ May 07, 2004, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: buster ]
Buster, Yes to your first question.
On formulations the total finished formulation is the issue not just one aspect, like the marketing XOM is doing on AN5.
They are promoting that because a formulator can use less adds or use less expensive AN5 vs. a higher cost possibly better/more robust base oil. Probably will use non organo metallic ester based EP adds at a lower treat to keep performance within limits, lower costs tremendously. Of course you don't know how much it lowers performance unless to test the finished product.
Polar issues are but one of many a formulator must negotiate before settling on a mix that the bean counters and market accept.
Use the proper adds like RL does with POE and you have a superior but very expensive lubricant.
Jet turbine oils use lots of high end POE and ester bases but you would not want to use that in your car.
You can't just read a snippet of marketing or tech data and think you understand a "new" twist from XOM that every tester in the industry has overlooked.
I want you guys to know the truth but time money and propretary issues limit me, really.
UOA's on your car are the most efective way to cut through the bullhocky out here, key is to read it right.
Terry
[ May 07, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
On formulations the total finished formulation is the issue not just one aspect, like the marketing XOM is doing on AN5.
They are promoting that because a formulator can use less adds or use less expensive AN5 vs. a higher cost possibly better/more robust base oil. Probably will use non organo metallic ester based EP adds at a lower treat to keep performance within limits, lower costs tremendously. Of course you don't know how much it lowers performance unless to test the finished product.
Polar issues are but one of many a formulator must negotiate before settling on a mix that the bean counters and market accept.
Use the proper adds like RL does with POE and you have a superior but very expensive lubricant.
Jet turbine oils use lots of high end POE and ester bases but you would not want to use that in your car.
You can't just read a snippet of marketing or tech data and think you understand a "new" twist from XOM that every tester in the industry has overlooked.
I want you guys to know the truth but time money and propretary issues limit me, really.
UOA's on your car are the most efective way to cut through the bullhocky out here, key is to read it right.
Terry
[ May 07, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
Terry, thanks for your responses. Appreciate it.
My posts that were anti-RL were aimed at discussing/debating and trying to understand this oil. RL is obviously a different animal compared to other PAO lubes and therefore shows differently via UOA. We know that you have expertise with lubrication, but many of us have just been flat out confused with RL's showing on BITOG. However, when one does take into account the things you and Molekule have put forward about Redline, it becomes more clear that it is a fine oil and one that needs "expert" attention when having a UOA done.
[ May 07, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
My posts that were anti-RL were aimed at discussing/debating and trying to understand this oil. RL is obviously a different animal compared to other PAO lubes and therefore shows differently via UOA. We know that you have expertise with lubrication, but many of us have just been flat out confused with RL's showing on BITOG. However, when one does take into account the things you and Molekule have put forward about Redline, it becomes more clear that it is a fine oil and one that needs "expert" attention when having a UOA done.
[ May 07, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
The second analysis on my Toyota Sienna clearly show this. At the end of the run, I was going through Nevada on I-80 at 95-100 MPH. There are lots of long hills that required full throttle and over 5K RPM to maintain such speeds. The TBN was 1.3 when I changed out the oil slightly later, yet wear was insignificant.
Only problem I have with this RL cleaning theory are when RL is run in a clean engine yet still shows higher wear. Numerous amounts of people have done tear downs on their engines running nothing but Mobil 1/Amsoil and showed very clean engines.
buster, show me proof of that .
I have never seen RL in a clean well maintained engine show anything but clean results. The racing engines of tyrolkid in NYC are glaring proof that you are off base. He races them then drives daily too.
You are assuming from analysis results here on RL that the engines are in perfect condition. I suggest that what you mistakenly assume is caused by RL lubes are other issues that are misinterpreted or other issues are not shared.
Hey if a engine is blowing- by alot and you are running B&G quad doses of fuel treatment then mis service a K&N air filter don't blame the motor oil.
Why would I suggest using this oil in a customers engine if I thought it would make my interpretive skills look poorly ?
I receive repeat business because I made a qualitative difference.
Yes I see many oils that do well and keep engines clean,redline is one of them.
No offense but you and others that know just enough to be confused remind me of a defective relay that keeps tripping and can't decide to stay open or closed.
I have never seen RL in a clean well maintained engine show anything but clean results. The racing engines of tyrolkid in NYC are glaring proof that you are off base. He races them then drives daily too.
You are assuming from analysis results here on RL that the engines are in perfect condition. I suggest that what you mistakenly assume is caused by RL lubes are other issues that are misinterpreted or other issues are not shared.
Hey if a engine is blowing- by alot and you are running B&G quad doses of fuel treatment then mis service a K&N air filter don't blame the motor oil.
Why would I suggest using this oil in a customers engine if I thought it would make my interpretive skills look poorly ?
I receive repeat business because I made a qualitative difference.
Yes I see many oils that do well and keep engines clean,redline is one of them.
No offense but you and others that know just enough to be confused remind me of a defective relay that keeps tripping and can't decide to stay open or closed.
Terry, tyrolkid has a VW, which seems to do well with RL and many other oils. However, those are very IMPRESSIVE reports. I do see your point in that a clean, well running engine, RL will show great results. As I've said before, I'm far from an expert and only go with what I see on here, which isn't the whole pictures.
The bottom line then is that many of the UOAs with RL, the engines must have a dirt build up or other problems with them, and this is why 9/10 RL UOAs are not as good as expected We've also seen cases where wear spikes right after running RL from a previous oil, which coule be the whole "scavenging" aspect. My engine is clean and now that RL is available on the shelf, I might run it to see what happens.
Terry there are a lot of people with these same questions but no one has the ***** to ask them.
[ May 07, 2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
The bottom line then is that many of the UOAs with RL, the engines must have a dirt build up or other problems with them, and this is why 9/10 RL UOAs are not as good as expected We've also seen cases where wear spikes right after running RL from a previous oil, which coule be the whole "scavenging" aspect. My engine is clean and now that RL is available on the shelf, I might run it to see what happens.
Terry there are a lot of people with these same questions but no one has the ***** to ask them.
[ May 07, 2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
I've said this before, but if I was to use something besides Amsoil in my two Audis', it would be the Redline 10w-30 in the 2002 TT roadster and their 10w-40 or 20w-50 in my old Audi 100 sedan. I'd probably run the Redline MT-90 gear lube in the TT as well ....
I really like the Redline; provided you don't extend drain intervals past 10,000 miles. It's very rare to see a Redline sample that is really trashed or thickens out of grade.
Ted
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
I really like the Redline; provided you don't extend drain intervals past 10,000 miles. It's very rare to see a Redline sample that is really trashed or thickens out of grade.
Ted
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
Sorry..
Terry
Buster
And nno I'm not calling you a dummy. Its just funny because you right. Gotta have some ******s to go up against TD
Terry
And nno I'm not calling you a dummy. Its just funny because you right. Gotta have some ******s to go up against TD
Quadrun1, Newly rebuilt engine,admitted helicoil contamination,and romping the tar out of that TC 6 cylinder.
Next.....
FYI,
Buster is a longtime valued customer ( with big Balls) and knew what was coming with this line of questioning
Gosh its nice to be in the office with a few minute of free time here at BITOG !!!!!!!!
Next.....
FYI,
Buster is a longtime valued customer ( with big Balls) and knew what was coming with this line of questioning
Gosh its nice to be in the office with a few minute of free time here at BITOG !!!!!!!!
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