rare AWD comparison test of CUVs on same tires
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Originally Posted by PimTac
Another thread destined for a ðŸ”.
Next thing: Mazda CX-5 is better off road than Mercedes Gelandewagen.
Another thread destined for a ðŸ”.
Next thing: Mazda CX-5 is better off road than Mercedes Gelandewagen.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by madRiver
Three CUVs (Tiguan vs Tucson vs CRV) normalized to same winter tires. I wish US you tube testers would perform tests like this and not OEM tires to compare them. Impressed by Tucson as winter capable. Very long....ending is better in world conditions.
Mazda does.
LOL. I drove over much worse conditions and steeper grade with Tiguan, and front would never slide like that. Obviosly Mazda CX-5 is not that fast transfering torque between front wheels and rear wheels.
By the way, any of those vehicles in video would do that hill easily.
It's pretty fast, you get about 1/8-1/4th of a tire rotation on a WOT start on loose surface before the rears kick in from what I've filmed in slow motion, but Mazda exploited a loop-hole in other vehicle's software to make the video seem like the CX5 was vastly superior. I speculate that to prevent loss of control on loose surfaces, most vehicles have a lot less slack in the system programmed in when the accelerator is pressed with the front wheels turned. Mazda was a bit more aggressive, and the result is that you can make a video like this.
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by madRiver
Three CUVs (Tiguan vs Tucson vs CRV) normalized to same winter tires. I wish US you tube testers would perform tests like this and not OEM tires to compare them. Impressed by Tucson as winter capable. Very long....ending is better in world conditions.
Mazda does.
LOL. I drove over much worse conditions and steeper grade with Tiguan, and front would never slide like that. Obviosly Mazda CX-5 is not that fast transfering torque between front wheels and rear wheels.
By the way, any of those vehicles in video would do that hill easily.
It's pretty fast, you get about 1/8-1/4th of a tire rotation on a WOT start on loose surface before the rears kick in from what I've filmed in slow motion, but Mazda exploited a loop-hole in other vehicle's software to make the video seem like the CX5 was vastly superior. I speculate that to prevent loss of control on loose surfaces, most vehicles have a lot less slack in the system programmed in when the accelerator is pressed with the front wheels turned. Mazda was a bit more aggressive, and the result is that you can make a video like this.
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Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by madRiver
Three CUVs (Tiguan vs Tucson vs CRV) normalized to same winter tires. I wish US you tube testers would perform tests like this and not OEM tires to compare them. Impressed by Tucson as winter capable. Very long....ending is better in world conditions.
Mazda does.
LOL. I drove over much worse conditions and steeper grade with Tiguan, and front would never slide like that. Obviosly Mazda CX-5 is not that fast transfering torque between front wheels and rear wheels.
By the way, any of those vehicles in video would do that hill easily.
It's pretty fast, you get about 1/8-1/4th of a tire rotation on a WOT start on loose surface before the rears kick in from what I've filmed in slow motion, but Mazda exploited a loop-hole in other vehicle's software to make the video seem like the CX5 was vastly superior. I speculate that to prevent loss of control on loose surfaces, most vehicles have a lot less slack in the system programmed in when the accelerator is pressed with the front wheels turned. Mazda was a bit more aggressive, and the result is that you can make a video like this.
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by madRiver
Three CUVs (Tiguan vs Tucson vs CRV) normalized to same winter tires. I wish US you tube testers would perform tests like this and not OEM tires to compare them. Impressed by Tucson as winter capable. Very long....ending is better in world conditions.
Mazda does.
LOL. I drove over much worse conditions and steeper grade with Tiguan, and front would never slide like that. Obviosly Mazda CX-5 is not that fast transfering torque between front wheels and rear wheels.
By the way, any of those vehicles in video would do that hill easily.
It's pretty fast, you get about 1/8-1/4th of a tire rotation on a WOT start on loose surface before the rears kick in from what I've filmed in slow motion, but Mazda exploited a loop-hole in other vehicle's software to make the video seem like the CX5 was vastly superior. I speculate that to prevent loss of control on loose surfaces, most vehicles have a lot less slack in the system programmed in when the accelerator is pressed with the front wheels turned. Mazda was a bit more aggressive, and the result is that you can make a video like this.
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
Quote
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
I haven't driven the forester, but have driven an awd cx5 on all seasons through whiteout conditions. It was absurdly tractable. The tires limited me big time, but it was a blast really, except for getting home a bit later than intended from OK. The awd system performed fine. I noted no difference in functionality from the one in my JGC with 52/48 static split and 0-100% individual tire torque transfer via F/R ELSDs. On paper the JGC was a far superior system. Literally as good as one can get. In the real world, i noticed no difference in safely navigating icy, snowy roads. Both were boringly predictable and turning traction was far outpaced by their abilities to accelerate. Usually in ice storms, I will pass multiple ditched trucks (f150, etc) and the only vehicles that make it further than myself are larger, heavier vehicles, like f250, dodge 2500, etc. No making up for PSI on the tread/road, which seems to play a far greater roll than which cuv has what awd.
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
I haven't driven the forester, but have driven an awd cx5 on all seasons through whiteout conditions. It was absurdly tractable. The tires limited me big time, but it was a blast really, except for getting home a bit later than intended from OK. The awd system performed fine. I noted no difference in functionality from the one in my JGC with 52/48 static split and 0-100% individual tire torque transfer via F/R ELSDs. On paper the JGC was a far superior system. Literally as good as one can get. In the real world, i noticed no difference in safely navigating icy, snowy roads. Both were boringly predictable and turning traction was far outpaced by their abilities to accelerate. Usually in ice storms, I will pass multiple ditched trucks (f150, etc) and the only vehicles that make it further than myself are larger, heavier vehicles, like f250, dodge 2500, etc. No making up for PSI on the tread/road, which seems to play a far greater roll than which cuv has what awd.
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Originally Posted by Ws6
Quote
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
Subaru is the only vehicle in that category with full time AWD. Mazda, Honda, Toyota they all have 100% FWD, unless it slips, or they transfer 10% in curves or during regular acceleration.
Subaru, depending on model has 60/40, 55/45, 50/50 or 40/60 (STI, WRX). It si far more capable than anything in that category. I am not big fan of Subaru, but AWD wise, they are best in that category, or one of the best overall (I would give advantage to Audi due to several other variables).
And those tests on rollers are insult to intelligence.
Come here, take Loveland pass during the blizzard, Subaru would obliterate anything in that category, including Mazda or my Tiguan.
Quote
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
Subaru is the only vehicle in that category with full time AWD. Mazda, Honda, Toyota they all have 100% FWD, unless it slips, or they transfer 10% in curves or during regular acceleration.
Subaru, depending on model has 60/40, 55/45, 50/50 or 40/60 (STI, WRX). It si far more capable than anything in that category. I am not big fan of Subaru, but AWD wise, they are best in that category, or one of the best overall (I would give advantage to Audi due to several other variables).
And those tests on rollers are insult to intelligence.
Come here, take Loveland pass during the blizzard, Subaru would obliterate anything in that category, including Mazda or my Tiguan.
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Quote
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
Subaru is the only vehicle in that category with full time AWD. Mazda, Honda, Toyota they all have 100% FWD, unless it slips, or they transfer 10% in curves or during regular acceleration.
Subaru, depending on model has 60/40, 55/45, 50/50 or 40/60 (STI, WRX). It si far more capable than anything in that category. I am not big fan of Subaru, but AWD wise, they are best in that category, or one of the best overall (I would give advantage to Audi due to several other variables).
And those tests on rollers are insult to intelligence.
Come here, take Loveland pass during the blizzard, Subaru would obliterate anything in that category, including Mazda or my Tiguan.
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
Originally Posted by Ws6
Quote
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
Subaru is the only vehicle in that category with full time AWD. Mazda, Honda, Toyota they all have 100% FWD, unless it slips, or they transfer 10% in curves or during regular acceleration.
Subaru, depending on model has 60/40, 55/45, 50/50 or 40/60 (STI, WRX). It si far more capable than anything in that category. I am not big fan of Subaru, but AWD wise, they are best in that category, or one of the best overall (I would give advantage to Audi due to several other variables).
And those tests on rollers are insult to intelligence.
Come here, take Loveland pass during the blizzard, Subaru would obliterate anything in that category, including Mazda or my Tiguan.
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
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My take away was they were all pretty close. Mazda was not there in exact winter conditions that day so cannot compare as better, worst or similar.
Quote
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
SO your Mazda is fine. My Toyota is fine, but that does not make it beter than Subaru. Yes tires are most important, and that trick with wipers, sensors etc. BMW had 15 years ago, except used on full time AWD.
Know what you drive.
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
SO your Mazda is fine. My Toyota is fine, but that does not make it beter than Subaru. Yes tires are most important, and that trick with wipers, sensors etc. BMW had 15 years ago, except used on full time AWD.
Know what you drive.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
SO your Mazda is fine. My Toyota is fine, but that does not make it beter than Subaru. Yes tires are most important, and that trick with wipers, sensors etc. BMW had 15 years ago, except used on full time AWD.
Know what you drive.
No, I think it's more of less equal to current Subaru.
Scooby has more systems than many realize.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/not-every-subaru-all-wheel-drive-system-is-created-equal/
Subaru's 4 systems:
Mazda CX5:
MB 4Matic:
Jeep QD2:
You will note that the Jeep system is the only one that doesn't simply use the brakes, and actually uses diffs to send power to any 1 of 4 wheels, or in any combination. It's about the most adaptive and effective method of sending power to the ground that there is. That being said, acceleration on ice and snow it vs. my CX5, there really isn't much difference I noted. This leads me to believe that any system that is modern, and capable of sending 40-60% of the torque to the front or back of the vehicle and modulating the brakes, is going to work just fine, as I've owned two "extremes", and they drove virtually the same. I have filmed my older, 2015 model CX5 in slow motion on loose surfaces, and on gravel, with it going up hill, flooring it WOT with all traction control off and brake-torquing lightly, the front tires will get in about 1/8th of a rotation before the rears are engaged. Indeed, flooring it in the rain didn't even illicit a chirp. Instant transfer, nearly.
Long story short, IMO, they all drive more or less the same on ice/snow, but when you throw rock-crawling into the mix, systems like the Jeep are absolutely going to dominate.
*The Mazda videos by Coleman are pure gold, and touch on other systems, as well.
Quote
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
SO your Mazda is fine. My Toyota is fine, but that does not make it beter than Subaru. Yes tires are most important, and that trick with wipers, sensors etc. BMW had 15 years ago, except used on full time AWD.
Know what you drive.
No, I think it's more of less equal to current Subaru.
Scooby has more systems than many realize.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/not-every-subaru-all-wheel-drive-system-is-created-equal/
Subaru's 4 systems:
Mazda CX5:
MB 4Matic:
Jeep QD2:
You will note that the Jeep system is the only one that doesn't simply use the brakes, and actually uses diffs to send power to any 1 of 4 wheels, or in any combination. It's about the most adaptive and effective method of sending power to the ground that there is. That being said, acceleration on ice and snow it vs. my CX5, there really isn't much difference I noted. This leads me to believe that any system that is modern, and capable of sending 40-60% of the torque to the front or back of the vehicle and modulating the brakes, is going to work just fine, as I've owned two "extremes", and they drove virtually the same. I have filmed my older, 2015 model CX5 in slow motion on loose surfaces, and on gravel, with it going up hill, flooring it WOT with all traction control off and brake-torquing lightly, the front tires will get in about 1/8th of a rotation before the rears are engaged. Indeed, flooring it in the rain didn't even illicit a chirp. Instant transfer, nearly.
Long story short, IMO, they all drive more or less the same on ice/snow, but when you throw rock-crawling into the mix, systems like the Jeep are absolutely going to dominate.
*The Mazda videos by Coleman are pure gold, and touch on other systems, as well.
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The videos with Dave Coleman are almost a must watch for any Mazda owner. You can really get good insights on why things were done a certain way.
Just to add again, you can have the best system in the planet but if you are not experienced in driving in snow and ice then don't expect miracles. Every winter I see vehicles of all makes that have gone off the road and into trouble. Tires are another crucial element as well.
Just to add again, you can have the best system in the planet but if you are not experienced in driving in snow and ice then don't expect miracles. Every winter I see vehicles of all makes that have gone off the road and into trouble. Tires are another crucial element as well.
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Owning three Subies, and a CX-5, I can actually say that the non-LSD Subies AWD strategy is worse than the CX-5.
And if you actually bothered to watch the Mazda video, it was to show that when the steering wheels are turned, all BUT the Mazda turn off power transfer to the rear wheels, leaving the fronts spinning uselessly.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Owning three Subies, and a CX-5, I can actually say that the non-LSD Subies AWD strategy is worse than the CX-5.
And if you actually bothered to watch the Mazda video, it was to show that when the steering wheels are turned, all BUT the Mazda turn off power transfer to the rear wheels, leaving the fronts spinning uselessly.
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Owning three Subies, and a CX-5, I can actually say that the non-LSD Subies AWD strategy is worse than the CX-5.
And if you actually bothered to watch the Mazda video, it was to show that when the steering wheels are turned, all BUT the Mazda turn off power transfer to the rear wheels, leaving the fronts spinning uselessly.
Yeah I watched video. Front is sliding, until torque is transferred. As I told before, any AWD will make that hill, and numerous FWD with snow tire.
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Owning three Subies, and a CX-5, I can actually say that the non-LSD Subies AWD strategy is worse than the CX-5.
And if you actually bothered to watch the Mazda video, it was to show that when the steering wheels are turned, all BUT the Mazda turn off power transfer to the rear wheels, leaving the fronts spinning uselessly.
Yeah I watched video. Front is sliding, until torque is transferred. As I told before, any AWD will make that hill, and numerous FWD with snow tire.
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
SO your Mazda is fine. My Toyota is fine, but that does not make it beter than Subaru. Yes tires are most important, and that trick with wipers, sensors etc. BMW had 15 years ago, except used on full time AWD.
Know what you drive.
No, I think it's more of less equal to current Subaru.
Scooby has more systems than many realize.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/not-every-subaru-all-wheel-drive-system-is-created-equal/
Subaru's 4 systems:
Mazda CX5:
MB 4Matic:
Jeep QD2:
You will note that the Jeep system is the only one that doesn't simply use the brakes, and actually uses diffs to send power to any 1 of 4 wheels, or in any combination. It's about the most adaptive and effective method of sending power to the ground that there is. That being said, acceleration on ice and snow it vs. my CX5, there really isn't much difference I noted. This leads me to believe that any system that is modern, and capable of sending 40-60% of the torque to the front or back of the vehicle and modulating the brakes, is going to work just fine, as I've owned two "extremes", and they drove virtually the same. I have filmed my older, 2015 model CX5 in slow motion on loose surfaces, and on gravel, with it going up hill, flooring it WOT with all traction control off and brake-torquing lightly, the front tires will get in about 1/8th of a rotation before the rears are engaged. Indeed, flooring it in the rain didn't even illicit a chirp. Instant transfer, nearly.
Long story short, IMO, they all drive more or less the same on ice/snow, but when you throw rock-crawling into the mix, systems like the Jeep are absolutely going to dominate.
*The Mazda videos by Coleman are pure gold, and touch on other systems, as well.
Mazda s still FWD biased system. Even Mazda web site in explanation says it. So no, it is not similar to MB, Subaru, JGC. All similar vehicles have stand by torque, in my Tiguan split is constant 90/10 (actually rear wheels get more than Mazda CX-5). It is selling you air. Wipers, incline, angle sensors. All that is available on numerous cars for last two decades. But that is different from full time AWD. Having stand by torque is different from having 50% torque on each axle.
What you NOW claim is that CX-5 drives similarly. That is different from claims how CX-5 is best thing after sliced bread. No, it will not drive similarly to JGC and MB or Subaru as their weight distribution, especially in MB and JGC is not conducive to that kind of understeer as it is in Mazda, Toyota, VW, Honda etc.
Will it do job? Yes. Better than some other cars? Probably as Mazda dynamically is usually better than most Asian cars.
Is Mazda's AWD system good? Yes. No, Dave Colman videos are not pure gold. Numerous videos where every manufacturer claims why you should buy their vehicle, and only their vehicle.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
During my driving, I noted my cx5 to be just fine, even compared to my JGC, which has an awd more capable than anything Subaru has. Neither the subaru nor cx5 has what Id call an amazing system, but for driving in snow, ice, etc. I dont think it matters one bit. They all do fine. The subaru doesnt have very strong bias, and uses brakes to control torque. Its nothing special. Same as cx5 except it drives all 4 tires and reacts to slip with brakes, while mazda drives 2 and reacts with clutch as well as brakes, although their new as of 2017? system does drive all 4 tires predictively even without slip, basedon temps, windshield wipers, steering angle, and other factors, making it basically mirror Subaru's for all intents. The difference technically exists, but in the real world it doesnt show up on snow and ice really, as they all have enough biasing to spin all 4 tires, and both systems allow slip before "doing something about it". More on rock crawls and the like, where torque biasing really gets stressed, which is where the Jeep QD2 and similar really shines.
Of note, tires matter more, as a friend was following me in his WRX, and almost slid off the road, while I barely noticed the icy patch in the corner that nearly got him. All seasons vs summer performance.
SO your Mazda is fine. My Toyota is fine, but that does not make it beter than Subaru. Yes tires are most important, and that trick with wipers, sensors etc. BMW had 15 years ago, except used on full time AWD.
Know what you drive.
No, I think it's more of less equal to current Subaru.
Scooby has more systems than many realize.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/not-every-subaru-all-wheel-drive-system-is-created-equal/
Subaru's 4 systems:
Mazda CX5:
MB 4Matic:
Jeep QD2:
You will note that the Jeep system is the only one that doesn't simply use the brakes, and actually uses diffs to send power to any 1 of 4 wheels, or in any combination. It's about the most adaptive and effective method of sending power to the ground that there is. That being said, acceleration on ice and snow it vs. my CX5, there really isn't much difference I noted. This leads me to believe that any system that is modern, and capable of sending 40-60% of the torque to the front or back of the vehicle and modulating the brakes, is going to work just fine, as I've owned two "extremes", and they drove virtually the same. I have filmed my older, 2015 model CX5 in slow motion on loose surfaces, and on gravel, with it going up hill, flooring it WOT with all traction control off and brake-torquing lightly, the front tires will get in about 1/8th of a rotation before the rears are engaged. Indeed, flooring it in the rain didn't even illicit a chirp. Instant transfer, nearly.
Long story short, IMO, they all drive more or less the same on ice/snow, but when you throw rock-crawling into the mix, systems like the Jeep are absolutely going to dominate.
*The Mazda videos by Coleman are pure gold, and touch on other systems, as well.
Mazda s still FWD biased system. Even Mazda web site in explanation says it. So no, it is not similar to MB, Subaru, JGC. All similar vehicles have stand by torque, in my Tiguan split is constant 90/10 (actually rear wheels get more than Mazda CX-5). It is selling you air. Wipers, incline, angle sensors. All that is available on numerous cars for last two decades. But that is different from full time AWD. Having stand by torque is different from having 50% torque on each axle.
What you NOW claim is that CX-5 drives similarly. That is different from claims how CX-5 is best thing after sliced bread. No, it will not drive similarly to JGC and MB or Subaru as their weight distribution, especially in MB and JGC is not conducive to that kind of understeer as it is in Mazda, Toyota, VW, Honda etc.
Will it do job? Yes. Better than some other cars? Probably as Mazda dynamically is usually better than most Asian cars.
Is Mazda's AWD system good? Yes. No, Dave Colman videos are not pure gold. Numerous videos where every manufacturer claims why you should buy their vehicle, and only their vehicle.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
Yes, roughly 2% of all torque is being sent to the rear tires in the Mazda system. Mazda uses an AWD that can react many times faster than Subaru's (or many others). This means that there is never any "slack" in the drive-line, and when slip is detected at the front wheels, at the point that it would compromise traction (traction is still increasing even as slip is occurring), it is shuffled to the rear by electromagnetically operated clutches (vs. Hydraulic in Subaru's system). Also of note, my CX5's transfer torque much faster than my Jeep did, even if they didn't have quite as precise a control over it in extreme situations (rock crawling, high torque biases, etc).
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
Yes, roughly 2% of all torque is being sent to the rear tires in the Mazda system. Mazda uses an AWD that can react many times faster than Subaru's (or many others). This means that there is never any "slack" in the drive-line, and when slip is detected at the front wheels, at the point that it would compromise traction (traction is still increasing even as slip is occurring), it is shuffled to the rear by electromagnetically operated clutches (vs. Hydraulic in Subaru's system). Also of note, my CX5's transfer torque much faster than my Jeep did, even if they didn't have quite as precise a control over it in extreme situations (rock crawling, high torque biases, etc).
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
Yes, roughly 2% of all torque is being sent to the rear tires in the Mazda system. Mazda uses an AWD that can react many times faster than Subaru's (or many others). This means that there is never any "slack" in the drive-line, and when slip is detected at the front wheels, at the point that it would compromise traction (traction is still increasing even as slip is occurring), it is shuffled to the rear by electromagnetically operated clutches (vs. Hydraulic in Subaru's system). Also of note, my CX5's transfer torque much faster than my Jeep did, even if they didn't have quite as precise a control over it in extreme situations (rock crawling, high torque biases, etc).
I'm sure that's important on the way home from the drag strip or pumping iron.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
Yes, roughly 2% of all torque is being sent to the rear tires in the Mazda system. Mazda uses an AWD that can react many times faster than Subaru's (or many others). This means that there is never any "slack" in the drive-line, and when slip is detected at the front wheels, at the point that it would compromise traction (traction is still increasing even as slip is occurring), it is shuffled to the rear by electromagnetically operated clutches (vs. Hydraulic in Subaru's system). Also of note, my CX5's transfer torque much faster than my Jeep did, even if they didn't have quite as precise a control over it in extreme situations (rock crawling, high torque biases, etc).
I'm sure that's important on the way home from the drag strip or pumping iron.
Originally Posted by dishdude
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
Yes, roughly 2% of all torque is being sent to the rear tires in the Mazda system. Mazda uses an AWD that can react many times faster than Subaru's (or many others). This means that there is never any "slack" in the drive-line, and when slip is detected at the front wheels, at the point that it would compromise traction (traction is still increasing even as slip is occurring), it is shuffled to the rear by electromagnetically operated clutches (vs. Hydraulic in Subaru's system). Also of note, my CX5's transfer torque much faster than my Jeep did, even if they didn't have quite as precise a control over it in extreme situations (rock crawling, high torque biases, etc).
I'm sure that's important on the way home from the drag strip or pumping iron.
Actually yup. I only took 2 of my cars to the strip before, though. A 1987 Mustang GT, and a 2001 WS.6. I do like lifting when it's bad weather out, though, as there are usually less people, by far. My main use of it though was in a white-out snow storm we had across the Eastern half of OK, when I was driving home from San Antonio. Lots of curvy roads, and I was on all-seasons (CrossContact LX20's). It did amazingly. Here is a photo I pulled over and took during a lull.
It also helps me get up my drive-way in snow storms. Here, I managed it on those same tires, with 2/32 left on them! Not smart, but I had new tires on order and this hit as a freak storm in Feb or March, as I recall. Note the tracks up and down the hill. Did great! Had to turn TC off, though, as the videos state, it DOES enhance the manner in which the AWD deals with extreme situations like that snowy hill on worn out all-seasons!
That was with my 2015, I now have a 2019, and they have done multiple updates to the system since my 2015, making it even better! Note the "high load" situations in the diagonal tests on concrete. THAT is where systems like the Jeep come into their own, that the 4MATIC, Symmetrical, etc. just can't come close to because they waste power and have weak biases.
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by bobdoo
"That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles."
Again, BS.
The CX-5 always sends power to the rear wheels. It increases MPG, and enhances driving dynamics.
Care to explain system?
Yes, roughly 2% of all torque is being sent to the rear tires in the Mazda system. Mazda uses an AWD that can react many times faster than Subaru's (or many others). This means that there is never any "slack" in the drive-line, and when slip is detected at the front wheels, at the point that it would compromise traction (traction is still increasing even as slip is occurring), it is shuffled to the rear by electromagnetically operated clutches (vs. Hydraulic in Subaru's system). Also of note, my CX5's transfer torque much faster than my Jeep did, even if they didn't have quite as precise a control over it in extreme situations (rock crawling, high torque biases, etc).
I'm sure that's important on the way home from the drag strip or pumping iron.
Actually yup. I only took 2 of my cars to the strip before, though. A 1987 Mustang GT, and a 2001 WS.6. I do like lifting when it's bad weather out, though, as there are usually less people, by far. My main use of it though was in a white-out snow storm we had across the Eastern half of OK, when I was driving home from San Antonio. Lots of curvy roads, and I was on all-seasons (CrossContact LX20's). It did amazingly. Here is a photo I pulled over and took during a lull.
It also helps me get up my drive-way in snow storms. Here, I managed it on those same tires, with 2/32 left on them! Not smart, but I had new tires on order and this hit as a freak storm in Feb or March, as I recall. Note the tracks up and down the hill. Did great! Had to turn TC off, though, as the videos state, it DOES enhance the manner in which the AWD deals with extreme situations like that snowy hill on worn out all-seasons!
That was with my 2015, I now have a 2019, and they have done multiple updates to the system since my 2015, making it even better! Note the "high load" situations in the diagonal tests on concrete. THAT is where systems like the Jeep come into their own, that the 4MATIC, Symmetrical, etc. just can't come close to because they waste power and have weak biases.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Ws6
Quote
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
The RAV4 can only transfer up to 50% torque to the rear axle. But yes, the rear axle coupling can lock at 50:50 for up to 25 mph.
The CR-V can only transfer up to 40% torque to the rear axle.
Subaru AWD is nothing special, but is a true full-time AWD system, and using a CVT (in most cases) for fuel economy purposes. But its normal torque split is something like 60:40, and can transfer up to 80% to front or rear axle.
Quote
That Subaru in video would leave Mazda behind, so much on a hill like that that driver could go get a coffee before you arrive.
These videos are absolutely ridiculous. I would make that hill with my Toyota, let alone some other vehicle. It is absolutely worthless video from point of which vehicle is better in those conditions and could be manipulated in numerous ways. ANY AWD vehicle with snow tires that those cars had would make that hill. ANY, including numerous FWD vehicles.
They all do pretty much the same thing on snow/ice, now thay toyota and honda have awd systems that transfer more torque. I think the RAV has the real advantage being able to lock up, up to 25mph or so. Subaru awd is nothing special.
The RAV4 can only transfer up to 50% torque to the rear axle. But yes, the rear axle coupling can lock at 50:50 for up to 25 mph.
The CR-V can only transfer up to 40% torque to the rear axle.
Subaru AWD is nothing special, but is a true full-time AWD system, and using a CVT (in most cases) for fuel economy purposes. But its normal torque split is something like 60:40, and can transfer up to 80% to front or rear axle.
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