Quantum Blue - SRT8 - UOA question

[Deleted member 89374]

That sounds like a description of Valvoline Maxlife Multi-Vehicle ATF. No warranty, no licenses, no certifications, no manufacturer approvals, no testing done by any OEM.

Transmission fluids are a bit different because every manufacturer wants to sell their own stuff at a huge markup. Did you see how much a quart of oil costs for ZF 8 speed transmissions?

So of course it's very difficult to get OEMs that already sell their own oil to get them to approve yours.

That being said, I wouldn't run Valvoline MaxLife in my ZF8 in my RAM 1500, though I've seen people who do. I bought a case of AMSOIL LV ATF and I'm getting an aluminum oil pan soon with a replaceable filter. AMSOIL was cheaper than the OEM fluid, and it's high quality.

 

[OVERKILL]

I hope, but not so sure.
I've been reading guys that religiously change according to the factory OCI with the recommended oil and still have the problem.

Dave

It's a roll of the dice, but most engines I've seen that have had the failure had visible varnish and it of course also tends to happen at higher mileage the majority of the time. I see oil cleanliness as important with respect to keeping the needle bearings in the lifters free of contamination because that's the source of the failure. Now, whether that's caused by particulate or some other mechanism like valve float, we really don't know but we do know that FCA and GM both pursued updates to the lifters trying to mitigate it, not heavier valve springs.

 

[kschachn]

Transmission fluids are a bit different because every manufacturer wants to sell their own stuff at a huge markup. Did you see how much a quart of oil costs for ZF 8 speed transmissions?

So of course it's very difficult to get OEMs that already sell their own oil to get them to approve yours.

That being said, I wouldn't run Valvoline MaxLife in my ZF8 in my RAM 1500, though I've seen people who do. I bought a case of AMSOIL LV ATF and I'm getting an aluminum oil pan soon with a replaceable filter. AMSOIL was cheaper than the OEM fluid, and it's high quality.

You do realize that from a technical standpoint that makes no sense, right? The Amsoil product has the same number of actual approvals as does the Valvoline product, both are "recommended for" use where an LV fluid is specified, and both are marketed as fully synthetic.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

You do realize that from a technical standpoint that makes no sense, right? The Amsoil product has the same number of actual approvals as does the Valvoline product, and both are marketed as fully synthetic fluids.

Actually, Valvoline Max Life is not recommended for ZF8 transmissions, however Amsoil LV is. Neither is Valvoline Max Life recommended for SP IV-RR (Genesis) applications. I would however run Valvoline Max Life in our Hyundais without any hesitation. That's according to their own documentation.

 

[kschachn]

I apologize, I thought the transmission used ZF Lifeguard 8 fluid which is one of the Maxlife recommendations. My mistake.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I apologize, I thought the transmission used ZF Lifeguard 8 fluid which is one of the Maxlife recommendations. My mistake.

I apologize as well, it's been a while since I looked at Maxlife, and back then it didn't recommend its use in ZF8 transmissions. To be more accurate, I found it interesting that the Valvoline web site recommended Maxlife for my truck, however, their PDS back when I looked didn't. I just thought I'll play it safe and go with something else. In any case, ZF Lifeguard 8 fluid is very expensive, overpriced I would say.

 

[kschachn]

FWIW, SP-IV-RR is also on the Maxlife recommendation list.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

FWIW, SP-IV-RR is also on the Maxlife recommendation list.

It's been updated 05/28/2020 and I bought the Amsoil LV ATF before that: https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...2d889bd3/3fa3136a-09bd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

Back when I checked ZF8 and SP-IV-RR weren't on that list yet. I guess those always worked but Valvoline just woke up in May and decided to update their PDS.

Do you know if the Valvoline MaxLife will actually mess with the transmission seals? Because that would suck.

[Edit]

I also found this thread from 2017: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/zf-8-speed-fluid-and-filter.269405/#post-4388759

Now I feel embarrassed

 

[wdn]

Transmission fluids are a bit different because every manufacturer wants to sell their own stuff at a huge markup. Did you see how much a quart of oil costs for ZF 8 speed transmissions?

So of course it's very difficult to get OEMs that already sell their own oil to get them to approve yours.

Castrol TRANSMAX multi-vehicle ATF doesn’t have a difficulty getting Mercon LV and Dexron VI licenses for their full synthetic multi-vehicle ATF. The license numbers from Ford and GM are printed on the label. They also have certification from Aisin for use on all Toyota transmissions.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Castrol TRANSMAX multi-vehicle ATF doesn’t have a difficulty getting Mercon LV and Dexron VI licenses for their full synthetic multi-vehicle ATF. The license numbers from Ford and GM are printed on the label. They also have certification from Aisin for use on all Toyota transmissions.

When I made that statement, I was thinking of KIA/Hyundai and ZF, so I was thinking of my vehicles. As far as I know, you can't buy certified third party fluids for anything that I own. Neither KIA/Hyundai nor ZF want to certify someone else's ATF fluid because they want to sell their own at a steep markup. If you can show me something certified for what I have, please do because I'm never gonna spend $20+ on a quart of "magical" ATF fluid just because it's OEM.

 

[Popsy]

I've looked at a few UOA of this/these QB oils, some show phosphorus levels up to 6000ppm...what's going on there? Along with regular Zinc level. Apparently they are using phosphorus as antiwear, but at a really huge dose.

 

[drtyler]

Castrol TRANSMAX multi-vehicle ATF doesn’t have a difficulty getting Mercon LV and Dexron VI licenses for their full synthetic multi-vehicle ATF. The license numbers from Ford and GM are printed on the label. They also have certification from Aisin for use on all Toyota transmissions.

wdn -- I appreciate you pointing this out in previous threads with regards to the Castrol Transmax Multi-Vehicle Synthetic product which is Aisin certified. Many thanks.

Something I noticed with the Transmax Multi-Vehicle Full Synthetic ATF. The license numbers for Dexron IV and Mercon LV are identical to the licence numbers listed on the Transmax Dexron VI/Mercon LV product. The PDS sheets for both fluids show identical viscosity, etc. I have wondered if the fluids were the same. Unless there is some variance allowed in the Dex VI and Mercon LV specs that which allow for the both fluids to be approved under the same license but with slightly different formulations.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I've looked at a few UOA of this/these QB oils, some show phosphorus levels up to 6000ppm...what's going on there? Along with regular Zinc level. Apparently they are using phosphorus as antiwear, but at a really huge dose.

I looked at some of those UOAs for QB as well. Maybe I'm wrong, however, it almost looks like they are using off the shelf motor oil and add their own additive package to it. For a moment I was looking at them I was joking with myself and said that maybe their just dumping some Lubegard Bio/Tech in the oil and selling it, however, that phosphorus level is way too high. I wonder what the chemistry is with that high amount of Phosphorus. Maybe @MolaKule can chime in - and it would be much appreciated for sure

This right here: https://www.chargerforums.com/threads/2015-dodge-charger-r-t-12-093-miles-on-1-oil-change.385543/

It looks like any regular 5W-20 Dexos 1 Gen. motor oil with an additive package that was left in the motor for too long and started thickening. There is nothing special about it. There is absolutely no reason for a motor oil formulated for a HEMI engine to have Magnesium in it. It's not like it has LSPI issues Though it would be interesting to know what QB adds to whatever motor oil they're selling at a nice markup.

Currently, the poor guy who used QB 12.5W-40 in his SRT8, which ruined his engine, is using QB 15W-50. I hope that at the very least BND is reselling him Vanilla Mobil 1 15W-50 which can be had at Walmart for $22.99 for a 5-quart jug. And hopefully, he leaves it alone and doesn't add his "magic" touch to it. I'd love to see a UOA of that 12.5W-40. Maybe there is one and I missed it?

[Edit]

This right here:

Looks like Vanilla Mobil 1 5W-20 (or could be EP) with whatever Phosphorus additive BND adds to it. Just look closely at it. If I'm right, that's a hell of a business plan to resell people what they can buy at Walmart at a steep markup

[One more Edit]

How much you guys want to be that what BND sold the poor guy with the SRT8 was PUP 0W-40 with his "magic phosphorus" added to it? I doubt it was Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 because PUP is low saps and also has fewer detergents. It's meant for shorter OCIs. I'm not saying that PUP is a bad oil by any means. just use it like you're supposed to.

 

[wdn]

When I made that statement, I was thinking of KIA/Hyundai and ZF, so I was thinking of my vehicles.

The Castrol TRANSMAX full synthetic multi-vehicle is not licensed by Hyundai or KIA so I think you are stuck. It is is licensed by FORD, GM and certified by Aisin for use in Toyota transmissions. I would stick with the OEM fluid in that case just as I would not use a motor oil that has no certifications, no matter who makes it. I would not use an ATF with no specs either, no matter who makes it.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

The Castrol TRANSMAX full synthetic multi-vehicle is not licensed by Hyundai or KIA so I think you are stuck. It is is licensed by FORD, GM and certified by Aisin for use in Toyota transmissions. I would stick with the OEM fluid in that case just as I would not use a motor oil that has no certifications, no matter who makes it. I would not use an ATF with no specs either, no matter who makes it.

Valvoline, AMSOIL and Castrol all have solid reputations, so I'm not afraid to use their ATF. Plenty of others are using AMSOIL in their RAM 1500 trucks without a single issue, and MaxLife in their KIA/Hyundais.

I also found this little gem here from Mobil 1: https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants...roducts/products/mobil-1-synthetic-lv-atf-hp/

Too bad it's only recommended for GM DEXRON HP, however, it has very nice specs.

[Edit]

This right here:

Valvoline stands behind all its products, including MaxLife Multi-Vehicle ATF. Use of MaxLife Multi-Vehicle ATF in transmissions where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle’s warranty. Vehicle manufacturers are restricted by federal law from including the requirement of the use of a specific brand or trade name of product or service as a condition of their warranty. The following is an extract from the Federal Trade Commission’s web site on interpretation of the Magnuson- Moss Warranty Act:

"Tie-In Sales" Provisions Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions. To keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

This also applies to those meaningless Crysler MS motor oil specifications.

 

[kschachn]

Which is not really a guarantee, Valvoline has stated they stand behind their product but it's not a guarantee:

A word of caution regarding Valvoline Maxlife ATF

I want to express that I'm not trying to start a war of words, nor am I looking for legal advice. This thread is being started because I believe there is fair value in having the BITOG community aware of a recent conversation I've had with Valvoline product support regarding the Maxlife...

www.bobistheoilguy.com

And I see they still have the vacuum cleaner nonsense in there. Maybe I'll take back my comment about their website looking like it was designed by an idiot, although this isn't exactly the website.

 

[Popsy]

I looked at some of those UOAs for QB as well. Maybe I'm wrong, however, it almost looks like they are using off the shelf motor oil and add their own additive package to it. For a moment I was looking at them I was joking with myself and said that maybe their just dumping some Lubegard Bio/Tech in the oil and selling it, however, that phosphorus level is way too high. I wonder what the chemistry is with that high amount of Phosphorus. Maybe @MolaKule can chime in - and it would be much appreciated for sure

This right here: https://www.chargerforums.com/threads/2015-dodge-charger-r-t-12-093-miles-on-1-oil-change.385543/

It looks like any regular 5W-20 Dexos 1 Gen. motor oil with an additive package that was left in the motor for too long and started thickening. There is nothing special about it. There is absolutely no reason for a motor oil formulated for a HEMI engine to have Magnesium in it. It's not like it has LSPI issues Though it would be interesting to know what QB adds to whatever motor oil they're selling at a nice markup.

Currently, the poor guy who used QB 12.5W-40 in his SRT8, which ruined his engine, is using QB 15W-50. I hope that at the very least BND is reselling him Vanilla Mobil 1 15W-50 which can be had at Walmart for $22.99 for a 5-quart jug. And hopefully, he leaves it alone and doesn't add his "magic" touch to it. I'd love to see a UOA of that 12.5W-40. Maybe there is one and I missed it?

[Edit]

This right here:

Looks like Vanilla Mobil 1 5W-20 (or could be EP) with whatever Phosphorus additive BND adds to it. Just look closely at it. If I'm right, that's a hell of a business plan to resell people what they can buy at Walmart at a steep markup

[One more Edit]

How much you guys want to be that what BND sold the poor guy with the SRT8 was PUP 0W-40 with his "magic phosphorus" added to it? I doubt it was Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 because PUP is low saps and also has fewer detergents. It's meant for shorter OCIs. I'm not saying that PUP is a bad oil by any means. just use it like you're supposed to.

That's still a lot of phosphorus. What good is that supposed to make to an engine, except poisoning the cats?
Your idea that the oils sold are starting regular already blended oils, with some kind of additives added could explain the discrepancies in additive levels between UOAs, but why would someone do that? Profit? Because that someone id convinced that what he's doing is the good thing (I've seen that a lot in big companies I've worked for)?
I'm puzzled, and wish we could go to the bottom of the story, but unless Brian chimes in (did he already do?) full disclosure, it's not going to happen.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Which is not really a guarantee, Valvoline has stated they stand behind their product but it's not a guarantee:

A word of caution regarding Valvoline Maxlife ATF

I want to express that I'm not trying to start a war of words, nor am I looking for legal advice. This thread is being started because I believe there is fair value in having the BITOG community aware of a recent conversation I've had with Valvoline product support regarding the Maxlife...

www.bobistheoilguy.com

And I see they still have the vacuum cleaner nonsense in there. Maybe I'll take back my comment about their website looking like it was designed by an idiot, although this isn't exactly the website.

Well, if you look at my comments here on BITOG you'll see that I'm not Valvoline's biggest fan. However, I'm trying not to be mean either towards their products. I think that being neutral is the best approach, that way no one is offended.

That's still a lot of phosphorus. What good is that supposed to make to an engine, except poisoning the cats?
Your idea that the oils sold are starting regular already blended oils, with some kind of additives added could explain the discrepancies in additive levels between UOAs, but why would someone do that? Profit? Because that someone id convinced that what he's doing is the good thing (I've seen that a lot in big companies I've worked for)?
I'm puzzled, and wish we could go to the bottom of the story, but unless Brian chimes in (did he already do?) full disclosure, it's not going to happen.

I have also seen charlatans and scammers in my life that end up believing their own lies and delude themselves into thinking that what they're doing is okay. It would be hilarious for Brian from BND to show up here kicking and screaming: "What I sold the SRT8 guy was actually Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 in white gallon jugs, not PUP SRT 0W-40, and his engine still turned to sh!t!!! See, I told ya Mobil 1 was no good!!!"

 

[MolaKule]

That's still a lot of phosphorus. What good is that supposed to make to an engine, except poisoning the cats?
Your idea that the oils sold are starting regular already blended oils, with some kind of additives added could explain the discrepancies in additive levels between UOAs, but why would someone do that? Profit? Because that someone id convinced that what he's doing is the good thing (I've seen that a lot in big companies I've worked for)?
I'm puzzled, and wish we could go to the bottom of the story, but unless Brian chimes in (did he already do?) full disclosure, it's not going to happen.

My "Hunch" (unsupported theory, educated guess) is that this QB bunch is taking off the shelf oils, and thinking they can somehow "boost" them, are adding something like a multi-functional phosphate additive in levels that are dangerous to CATs and could possibly build up dangerous levels of phosphoric and nitric acids.

The word they use is "customizing" which tells me they think they are making oils custom designed for your vehicle by changing the viscosity to arrive at their weird viscosity grades ranges and additive content. My opinion is they are setting a dangerous precedent by doing this. yet convincing some of the unsuspecting (uneducated) public they are smarter than engine engineers and the API.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

My "Hunch" (unsupported theory, educated guess) is that this QB bunch is taking off the shelf oils

That's what it looks like, though I doubt they know what they're doing. Their website looks horrendous, and as a web developer all I can say is that it's an eyesore to look at it. It looks like something that a middle schooler designed in 1997 on his free Geo Cities account. How in the world do they get people to fall for that crap? Why would rational people forgo all the good, tried and true petrolium products from reputable companies and put that crud in their expensive vehicles? To me this looks like a scam that's exploiting the fears of HEMI owners. Nearly every HEMI owner is afraid not to get the HEMI tick and this bunch is exploiting that. It's a shame, really. That's how they get their victims, it's the only explanation.

What's even more unbelievable is that not only did the guy with the SRT8 not complain about Quantum Blue, he went back for some more after he fixed his engine Would the FTC be a good place to report something like this? I mean he's ruining people's cars.

@MolaKule thank you for helping me a while back with that Howe's additive and setting me straight. I was in turn trying to help someone else in my family. Since that discussion I started looking with different eyes at oil additives.