Quality of workmanship today

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Originally Posted By: Benito
It seems the quality of workmanship today in our country is becoming like that in the 3rd world. And when it comes to our vehicles, I've been similarly and consistently let down, even with luxury brands.


My house was built in the early 70's, and has the same issues - door jambs that aren't square, crooked walls, electrical wiring that was obviously done the cheapest, most half-[censored]ed way possible, etc.

I don't think any of these quality issues are new, even though we'd like to think things were different back in the "good old days".

If anything, modern quality control processes and engineered materials result in more consistent quality than was ever possible in the past.

When I was a kid, I remember my grandfather burning a hole in the bathroom wall with his torch while repairing copper pipes. Now, I'll slap a $5 push fitting on it and be done.

The same holds true for vehicles - my late 70's Chrysler land yacht was done - finished - beaten to death - by 100k. Just about anything made in the past ten years should easily make 150k, with 200k+ being a realistic service life, if it is maintained and not abused.


My house was built in the early 1900's and while insulation certainly wasn't something that was paid as much attention to as it is now the wood used and craftsmanship of the fixtures, door knobs, doors, trim....etc is much nicer than "modern" stuff. I've had some issues with my plaster (hey, it is over 100) due to settling but that is easily repaired. Thick walls, high ceilings. And this is just an average house from that time-frame. I grew up in one very similar only a few blocks away. I would argue that they were certainly built better back around the turn of the century. The post WW-II homes on the other hand, my MIL has one and the construction was garbage in comparison.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Perfect timing for this topic.

Our home that we just put on the market was built seven years ago. I have never seen such poor workmanship along with the use of very low quality materials. We bought the house after completion and didn't see it under construction. The list of problems are just too many to mention, but I'll give you two of the most recent problematic ones.

First, the drywall was installed in such a poor manner the drywall nails are popping out, creating an unsightly hole with a nail in the middle. Not just one or two. Over the years I've fixed probably 25-30, with more left to be repaired. I can't get to a lot of them because they are so high up the wall, or on the ceiling, I just can't reach them (20' walls with cathedral ceiling). I'm unstable on a ladder so they will be sold with the house as is.

Second, is our seven year old roof. Several years ago we heard a strange sound coming from the roof. We checked and discovered that some shingles had come loose and slid down the roof to the ground. The roof is steeply pitched so we had to hire someone to come and re-attach them. This happened four more times. Each repair cost us between $150-$250. The fifth time it happened, we just decided to replace the roof. It was determined after a competent roofer examined the problem, the shingles had been installed improperly, some with only one roofing nail holding in place.

Clevy, I would gladly pay a premium to get the type of quality you expect from your workforce. Although these problems are not the reason we're moving, as frustrating as they are, I certainly won't miss dealing with these problems, or the unknown ones, I'm sure will rear their ugly head sometime in the future.



Your drywall is popping because the wall is vibrating excessively when a door is slammed and so on. Usually happens on overheight walls where the framer didn't install mid-span blocking which would distribute these vibrations across a larger area. It's also because they didn't glue the drywall to the wall.
For example on interior walls my boarders use pl-300. It's made specifically for drywall. Completely eliminates nail pops. Costs me 200 bucks for 3 cases which is enough to do a 2200 square foot house.
That 200 bucks saves my tapers hours of work in call backs as the house settles and lumber dries out. Money well spent in my opinion.
Many builders here are old school and refuse to glue drywall. They think it's an added,unnecessary expense and it's the tapers job to go back at year end to fix the various taping issues which they feel can't be avoided.
Me however I feel I can avoid a larger than necessary year end deficiency list using the stuff,and I'm satisfied it gives me a better finished product for pennies up front.
My boarders also use 1 extra screw per stud on exteriors walls because vapour barrier makes gluing impossible. They nail the seams and corners then use 4 screws per stud instead of 3. Makes a big difference at the year end deficiency list.
Your roof saddens me. Shinglers tend to be lesser educated drunks. Not all but most I've known. Do there is a small window of opportunity where they are lucid from late morning til early afternoon as the hangover dissipates then the urge to drink comes on.
That being said in today's world or air nailers there is absolutely no excuse for not enough fasteners.
Sub division builders are the worst. In ontario r they will frame houses with a 2x4 exterior wall then use a styrofoam sheething which nets r-18,not the R-20 minimum instead of using a 2x6 exterior wall and r-20 batts. This cheating saves the builder roughly 1000 dollars per house but cheats the customer. The building I spectors are told to ignore it because it's "close enough" and these builders are helping increase the city's tax base.
It's disgusting really.
The first foam sheethed house I build I stood on the roof as I laid the last sheet. It was a 2 storey house. I shifted my wright very hard from left to right and I could hear the seams of the foam squeaking as they rubbed.
They also I sist I leave all my interior bracing on until the drywallers install the board because it's the drywall that becomes the walls lateral bracing. They have us cut it wind bracing but it flexes a lot.
On a 2x6 wall sheathed with osb or plywood the sheeting is the lateral bracing and no drywall is depended on to maintain the lateral integrity.
For 1000 bucks a house savings the owner gets less insulation and a poorer constructed home.
I've built palaces and I've built shacks. Both get treated with the same care and attention to detail because in my eyes they are the same. It's a paying job

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Originally Posted By: Benito
It seems the quality of workmanship today in our country is becoming like that in the 3rd world. And when it comes to our vehicles, I've been similarly and consistently let down, even with luxury brands.


My house was built in the early 70's, and has the same issues - door jambs that aren't square, crooked walls, electrical wiring that was obviously done the cheapest, most half-[censored]ed way possible, etc.

I don't think any of these quality issues are new, even though we'd like to think things were different back in the "good old days".

If anything, modern quality control processes and engineered materials result in more consistent quality than was ever possible in the past.

When I was a kid, I remember my grandfather burning a hole in the bathroom wall with his torch while repairing copper pipes. Now, I'll slap a $5 push fitting on it and be done.

The same holds true for vehicles - my late 70's Chrysler land yacht was done - finished - beaten to death - by 100k. Just about anything made in the past ten years should easily make 150k, with 200k+ being a realistic service life, if it is maintained and not abused.


My house was built in the early 1900's and while insulation certainly wasn't something that was paid as much attention to as it is now the wood used and craftsmanship of the fixtures, door knobs, doors, trim....etc is much nicer than "modern" stuff. I've had some issues with my plaster (hey, it is over 100) due to settling but that is easily repaired. Thick walls, high ceilings. And this is just an average house from that time-frame. I grew up in one very similar only a few blocks away. I would argue that they were certainly built better back around the turn of the century. The post WW-II homes on the other hand, my MIL has one and the construction was garbage in comparison.


Your house will have sawdust insulation that has settled halfway up the wall if your lucky
HOWEVER
I'm guessing you've got a 10" 2 tiered baseboard with door casings that have an actual mantle on the head and plinth blocks at the foot.
Likely an 8 or 10 inch crown mould in the common place rooms like dining and living rooms.
Probably have 1 1/2 or 2 inch hardwood floors that have been covered up with carpet but if refinished will look glorious.
The per war homes aren't just houses. They are a testament to how people can take raw lumber and by hand turn it into a finished product that looks as though it was born there.
Don't even get me started on stairs and railings. Hardwood posts turned by hand. Each one made by a craftsman. Hand chiseled designs,not glued on plastic.
Early 20th century homes have class and style. The outsides will have hand made decorative designs on the eaves and gables. The porches and decks tend to be decorated with millwork that is unheard of today.
I like building decks for this reason. I'll make the rail sections into a sunburst,decorate and build out the posts. Basically I do what they did 100 years ago and not just build what's nevessary,but add decorative touches that make a deck into so much more than a deck.
I give it a spirit,a sense of itself in that it's the only one of its kind. And it wasn't just built......it was born.

 

[JustinH]

my ten year old house needed new paint, new doors, and lots of new wood trim due to rot.

All the water supply shutoffs were plastic. I replaced all of them with brass and stainless hoses.

Windows are very thin, even Central Texas needs good windows.

I didn't notice any installation errors, just spec houses built to a certain cost.

I think my house was $100k new, 1100 sq foot.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Few people have any pride in quality of work. Slap it on and move to next job.

Deny any mistakes and incompetence.



Sounds like government.

 

[OneEyeJack]

There's the old bible story about two brothers, the rich one and the poor one. The rich one hired the poor one to build a house. The poor brother took every shortcut he could on the construction and always cheated on the materials. When the job was done the rich brother handed the poor brother the keys and said, here this is now your house. ....yikes!

 

[Mr Nice]

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
There's the old bible story about two brothers, the rich one and the poor one. The rich one hired the poor one to build a house. The poor brother took every shortcut he could on the construction and always cheated on the materials. When the job was done the rich brother handed the poor brother the keys and said, here this is now your house. ....yikes!


LOL

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
Originally Posted By: Benito
It seems the quality of workmanship today in our country is becoming like that in the 3rd world. And when it comes to our vehicles, I've been similarly and consistently let down, even with luxury brands.


My house was built in the early 70's, and has the same issues - door jambs that aren't square, crooked walls, electrical wiring that was obviously done the cheapest, most half-[censored]ed way possible, etc.

I don't think any of these quality issues are new, even though we'd like to think things were different back in the "good old days".

If anything, modern quality control processes and engineered materials result in more consistent quality than was ever possible in the past.

When I was a kid, I remember my grandfather burning a hole in the bathroom wall with his torch while repairing copper pipes. Now, I'll slap a $5 push fitting on it and be done.

The same holds true for vehicles - my late 70's Chrysler land yacht was done - finished - beaten to death - by 100k. Just about anything made in the past ten years should easily make 150k, with 200k+ being a realistic service life, if it is maintained and not abused.


My house was built in the early 1900's and while insulation certainly wasn't something that was paid as much attention to as it is now the wood used and craftsmanship of the fixtures, door knobs, doors, trim....etc is much nicer than "modern" stuff. I've had some issues with my plaster (hey, it is over 100) due to settling but that is easily repaired. Thick walls, high ceilings. And this is just an average house from that time-frame. I grew up in one very similar only a few blocks away. I would argue that they were certainly built better back around the turn of the century. The post WW-II homes on the other hand, my MIL has one and the construction was garbage in comparison.


Your house will have sawdust insulation that has settled halfway up the wall if your lucky
HOWEVER
I'm guessing you've got a 10" 2 tiered baseboard with door casings that have an actual mantle on the head and plinth blocks at the foot.
Likely an 8 or 10 inch crown mould in the common place rooms like dining and living rooms.
Probably have 1 1/2 or 2 inch hardwood floors that have been covered up with carpet but if refinished will look glorious.
The per war homes aren't just houses. They are a testament to how people can take raw lumber and by hand turn it into a finished product that looks as though it was born there.
Don't even get me started on stairs and railings. Hardwood posts turned by hand. Each one made by a craftsman. Hand chiseled designs,not glued on plastic.
Early 20th century homes have class and style. The outsides will have hand made decorative designs on the eaves and gables. The porches and decks tend to be decorated with millwork that is unheard of today.
I like building decks for this reason. I'll make the rail sections into a sunburst,decorate and build out the posts. Basically I do what they did 100 years ago and not just build what's nevessary,but add decorative touches that make a deck into so much more than a deck.
I give it a spirit,a sense of itself in that it's the only one of its kind. And it wasn't just built......it was born.


Nailed it

No sawdust though. The main floor walls are hollow, faced with two layers of brick. The attic had fibreglass insulation added when it was renovated, so at least there is that, LOL!

 

[BRZED]

I bought a very nice antique chest of drawers a couple years ago. There were some issues with cracks and alignment. It took me two months to find a place that was willing to do the repairs in a fashion that would satisfy my demands. At most places they told me right away how they'd do it and they admitted upfront it wasn't what I wanted. So yeah, you can get quality work done, but finding someone who is willing to do it may take a while and the cost may be exorbitant. Having my chest of drawers repaired and restored cost three times the amount I had paid for the chest. It also took 6 weeks and required two 300 mile trips. I'm happy with it, though.

 

[Dave Sherman]

My popup camper comes to mind. I bought it used with my ex-wife when we were dating. It was only 2 years old and by the RV dealer's estimate, used 3 times. I'd believe it, it was spotless, still smelled new, and looked barely touched.

I soon found out that new RVs were not like new cars at all. It still had scraps of wood and sawdust inside cabinets where the workers cut a hold in the luan to mount something, and just left the scraps inside. There were leaks in the water and gas plumbing, and in some places the wiring was tenuously held together with electrical tape and a couple of wire nuts. In one spot, there were 7 ground wires jammed under one wire nut, and those wires were falling out if they didn't have 6 feet of electrical tape holding them together.

The battery box was a piece of work; four tiny sheet metal screws in the bottom of a nylon box with a 50 pound battery. Not only were they about to pull through the nylon, but having been out in the rain, the water seeped in through the vents in the box, rusted the screws, and was starting to rust the frame where it was mounted. Like that was going to stay put if I had to stop quickly or went over a large pothole.

Eventually I fixed it all myself. Fixed all the leaks with pipe dope and teflon tape, and rewired a few things using extra lengths of wire and more wire nuts. I had to add some elbow fittings in the gas lines because the hoses had sharp bends and started collapsing after a while. Had to tighten a few screws and reattach a bunk roller that fell off. Built a wood frame on the tongue and bolted it on with some actual bolts, so the battery box isn't going anywhere.

Seems like if you could actually put some design effort into an RV and not just slap a bunch of parts made by a variety of companies together, you could quickly get a good reputation and have a very nice RV. Even my former father in law bought a brand new fifth wheel, and still had his share of kinks to work out of it. The third time he used it, his toilet clogged. Seems some yutzes didn't know that sewage from the toilet doesn't flow up an inclined pipe very well, so the solid stuff settled out and clogged the pipe. Seems a lot of people with that same model had that same problem, but he was handy and replumbed it himself.

 

[JHZR2]

Say what you like about the potential ills of an old home, but Ive found that the more recent buildings have a lot of design attributes meant for cutting cost and build time, and not for quality. Sure, one can spec as great a modern build as one would like and can pay for... But the typical spec-house made from pressed trash from the local home center, by low-bid, build as fast as possible contractors is an issue.

Weve built a few weekend/beach type homes, still own one. New construction meant going through a lot of stuff very carefully and having he builder come back many times. What a pain.

Its interesting to compare the quality of woodwork and trim in my and my parents' home (ca 1920s buildings) compared to newer stuff. Even very basic, common stuff was made nicer with better joinery, nicer materials, etc. At least thats how it appears to me.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
My house was built in the early 1900's and while insulation certainly wasn't something that was paid as much attention to as it is now the wood used and craftsmanship of the fixtures, door knobs, doors, trim....etc is much nicer than "modern" stuff. I've had some issues with my plaster (hey, it is over 100) due to settling but that is easily repaired. Thick walls, high ceilings. And this is just an average house from that time-frame. I grew up in one very similar only a few blocks away. I would argue that they were certainly built better back around the turn of the century. The post WW-II homes on the other hand, my MIL has one and the construction was garbage in comparison.


I bet you have beautiful house!

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
It's hard when school guidance counselors take kids who are bored in class and pulling poor grades, then saying, you, yes you, should learn a trade. The other 90% go to college, then whine about how being saddled with debt isn't getting you anywhere.

We as a society don't value and respect the trades, so this is what we get. There are some good craftsmen out there, and they have to work through the stigma of the sheisters and dumbledores around themselves.


One of the reasons I enjoy the internet. I can learn what quality ought to be, without understanding it.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: larryinnewyork
Quality of workmanship today

YouTube is your friend.
Learn quality work and do it yourself.


x2

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Say what you like about the potential ills of an old home, but Ive found that the more recent buildings have a lot of design attributes meant for cutting cost and build time, and not for quality. Sure, one can spec as great a modern build as one would like and can pay for... But the typical spec-house made from pressed trash from the local home center, by low-bid, build as fast as possible contractors is an issue.

Weve built a few weekend/beach type homes, still own one. New construction meant going through a lot of stuff very carefully and having he builder come back many times. What a pain.

Its interesting to compare the quality of woodwork and trim in my and my parents' home (ca 1920s buildings) compared to newer stuff. Even very basic, common stuff was made nicer with better joinery, nicer materials, etc. At least thats how it appears to me.


Your right. 100 years ago there was still older growth forest left. The quality of the materials as far as raw lumber products was much better back then.
100 years ago a typical home builder was a master builder. Think about it. These guys has basic hand tools. No power saws or thickness planers or sanders. These guys did everything by hand. They turned their own stock on the lathe with either beast or manpower. They hand cut perfect joinery. I guarantee you there isn't any wood filler or caulking on any mitres,corners,bevels anywhere. Each joint cut and fitted perfectly.
Over time depending on the moisture content in the stock material may shrink in length. It's very,very uncommon but can happen.
Anyway it's not just the joinery. Look at the roofs. Cutting rafters for roof framing is far more complicated than just standing trusses which is most common today.
These guys cut perfect compound bevels using simple hand tools and as long as there wasn't any moisture to rot they are as strong today as the day they were built. Throw in a few hips and valleys and it your house is even an inch out of whack somewhere the roof doesn't work and there's no way to establish accurate rafter lengths which then means having yo compensate all over to make stuff work.
These old timers really knew their stuff.
When I lived in Detroit we'd sometimes gave to work in older homes,buildings etc and you could tell a huge difference in building techniques,materials used and finish quality. Before 1914 or so is when I noticed a change. Everything after that you could see slight and minor variances and the changes not improving anything. However that could and is likely a local trend as far as the timeframe.
Carpenters back then needed to know so much more because they were involved in way more of the processes in the journey from raw lumber to finished product.
Ballon framing is the best way to frame houses but when it comes to wood structures now we build in a way that's called western platform framing.
Basically we frame walks on ground. Sheet then stsnd them then put our floors on top of the walls,then next floor walls on the floor etc.
Well ballon framing is a way better system and used to be the most common framing technique but platform framing is faster.
Ballon framing means the outside walls are built to roof height. The floor are then built into the standing walls and fastened right to the studs as well as ledgers notched in to support end loads. It's the best way to build and really neat too however it's like oil right. If you don't need the more expensive built house for winds or earthquakes then the cheaper one will do the same job in that environment.
My next house will be ballon framed. I just really like how the floors actually sit inside the walls instead of on top. You could control the quality and achieve a higher quality finished product. But we are talking 1/8 and 1/4 inches which not even hot would notice once the finishes are applied.

 

[Benito]

I've lived in older houses as well as newer ones and always appreciated the workmanship - as mentioned using hand tools - and the higher quality you can find in older homes.

The wood finishing in average older homes is far better than what you find in above average modern homes.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

That's just it. I sucked at hockey and my parents didn't sugarcoat it. My dad was rather blunt about the "value" of that participation trophy and I ended up in hockey camp and came back being able to actually provide some value to my team. On the other hand, I was extremely good at swimming and that's where I was encouraged to invest my time. I did very well. Same thing applied to academia where I was pushed to pursue what I was good at. That drive is why I will be getting my ME degree (as recently discussed on here).

I'm bringing my kids up the same way, supporting what they are good at and not rewarding poor performance. The idea that "nice try" is good enough has no place in my household. Discovering your strengths and weaknesses is ultimately what enables you to find the right direction, getting your kids there is an important role for a parent. I don't expect my kids to get straight A's in every subject, there will be things they struggle at and that's fine. But I expect them to try their best and own it when they don't.


Some of us were born 100 years too late, today they call the attention to detail a craftsman has to have OCD.

 

[Alfred_B]

It's very difficult to find good workmanship. I have lowered my expectations when I hire someone to do something for me. I expect 85% satisfaction and 15% screw-ups. That's why it's important to have a knock-down list and inspect the work afterwards.

 

[OtisBlkR1]

I made the mistake of letting a old high school friend that is a now a Carpet flooring guy do my countertops and backsplashes.. By the time I got done overpaying for materials and waiting 2 months for a 4 day job to be finished.. I called it a lesson learned. the Quality is 100% sub par and I paid just shy of what a true professional in that field would have charged me for a quality job.

Im also learning that with a little internet research I can do so many jobs myself..

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted By: Benito
Is it just me this is happening to?


No!


Originally Posted By: Benito
Or are my expectations too high?


No!


I used to inspect construction work (electrical), and yes if you didn't make them fix stuff, they didn't. And yes I did test everything! This was at a waste water treatment plant. For residential home building, unless you DIY an inspection, it doesn't get done.