Preventive sludge action on a TDi

[TugaSaudade]

Hello all.
Although i've been following BITOG frequently, it has been quite a while since i posted.

I've recently traded my 101 bhp Skoda Fabia (VW gas engine code AUB) due to excessive oil consumption (design flaw similar to the Saturn) for another Skoda Fabia 101 bhp, this time with VW's 1.9 TDi engine, code ATD.

Skoda are currently the VW entry level brand, and since i love the Fabia model, i switched to a TDi to get rid of the dreaded oil consumption, and at the same time better fuel economy.


Car was a real bargain, but after finally tracking down the first owner, she told me the car only had VW dealer maintenance while the 2 year warranty lasted, and after that switched to a local mechanic that serviced the car for the 8 years that followed.
Last oil change she had record of was with a cheap 10w40 semi-sinth without the VW50501 spec.

Assuming that this engine was seriously neglected, i had the oil changed with BP Visco 7000 5w30 full synth, with the VW50700 spec, and had fitted today an oil pressure gauge to monitor oil pressures.
I was horrified with the pictures of a BMW E46 323ci engine sludged like i never seen before, not even here on BITOG, and i wish to prevent such scenario.
Specially after its owner tried a few flushes and ended up starving the engine of oil.

MY oil choices here are limited, but i have access to Mobil 1 0w40 and Motul Specific 506.01 0w30 ester-based synth.
Or would it be more reasonable to use a cheap semi-synth and some very short OCI's?

Thank you my fellow BITOG'ers.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The BMW 323 was not mantained in accordance with Factory oil or OCI

 

[RedCorvette]

Apart from the service history, you haven't established if there is sludge.

That would be the starting point.

Depending on how much there is, you can then decide your treatment regimen.

Generally there seems to be two approaches:

1) Take off the valve cover, drop the pan and clean everything meticulously otherwise you run the risk of clogging something
2) Do it slowly with a good cleaning oil and more frequent oil changes, or by using kreen or auto-rx. The exact approach depends on how much sludge you have, how fast you want it out and how often you want to change the oil.

It seems to me that if the engine is running well, then just use quality oil, keep an eye on the oil and oil filter and change it as frequently as you feel comfortable.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
Hello all.
Although i've been following BITOG frequently, it has been quite a while since i posted.

I've recently traded my 101 bhp Skoda Fabia (VW gas engine code AUB) due to excessive oil consumption (design flaw similar to the Saturn) for another Skoda Fabia 101 bhp, this time with VW's 1.9 TDi engine, code ATD.

Skoda are currently the VW entry level brand, and since i love the Fabia model, i switched to a TDi to get rid of the dreaded oil consumption, and at the same time better fuel economy.


Car was a real bargain, but after finally tracking down the first owner, she told me the car only had VW dealer maintenance while the 2 year warranty lasted, and after that switched to a local mechanic that serviced the car for the 8 years that followed.
Last oil change she had record of was with a cheap 10w40 semi-sinth without the VW50501 spec.

Assuming that this engine was seriously neglected, i had the oil changed with BP Visco 7000 5w30 full synth, with the VW50700 spec, and had fitted today an oil pressure gauge to monitor oil pressures.
I was horrified with the pictures of a BMW E46 323ci engine sludged like i never seen before, not even here on BITOG, and i wish to prevent such scenario.
Specially after its owner tried a few flushes and ended up starving the engine of oil.

MY oil choices here are limited, but i have access to Mobil 1 0w40 and Motul Specific 506.01 0w30 ester-based synth.
Or would it be more reasonable to use a cheap semi-synth and some very short OCI's?

Thank you my fellow BITOG'ers.

I drive Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDi when visiting family in Bosnia.
I have always used Syntheti oils that are VW approved fr those engines, which means VW 505.01.
I would go just with that oil, and I used Castrol or Shell Helix 5W40, and during winter due to the harsh winter conditions in Bosnia, I used 5W30.
So I would go with VW 505.01 regardles of oil that was previously used.

 

[TugaSaudade]

Thank you RedCorvette and edyvw.
For a start i'll do a 5k OCI, even if the oil in now is certified to handle 15k.

Next time i'll ask the mechanic to at least drop the pan and check it out.

BMWTurboDzl, i'm just assuming that i have a neglected engine and playing it on the safe side, hopefully no way as bad as that BMW E46.

My 2002 Fabia 1.9 Tdi runs great, but then again, so did that BMW.. that engine made me aware that things could be seriously wrong inside, even if it runs great.

So, for now i'm trying to figure out what oil to use next.
M1 New Life 0w40 is not VW50501 spec, but i've been following very good reports on its cleaning properties, even in known sludger prone engines like the Audi/VW 1.8T.

But i also read here on BITOG that oil with ester also had good cleaning properties.

So high quality choices in the 0w30/0w40 range and several cheaper 5w40 synth available to me, almost all with VW's 50501 spec, except Mobil 1 New life 0w40 and Shell Helix Ultra 5w40.

Thanks for the tips, everyone.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
Thank you RedCorvette and edyvw.
For a start i'll do a 5k OCI, even if the oil in now is certified to handle 15k.

Next time i'll ask the mechanic to at least drop the pan and check it out.

BMWTurboDzl, i'm just assuming that i have a neglected engine and playing it on the safe side, hopefully no way as bad as that BMW E46.

My 2002 Fabia 1.9 Tdi runs great, but then again, so did that BMW.. that engine made me aware that things could be seriously wrong inside, even if it runs great.

So, for now i'm trying to figure out what oil to use next.
M1 New Life 0w40 is not VW50501 spec, but i've been following very good reports on its cleaning properties, even in known sludger prone engines like the Audi/VW 1.8T.

But i also read here on BITOG that oil with ester also had good cleaning properties.

So high quality choices in the 0w30/0w40 range and several cheaper 5w40 synth available to me, almost all with VW's 50501 spec, except Mobil 1 New life 0w40 and Shell Helix Ultra 5w40.

Thanks for the tips, everyone.

I still advise you to use VW 505.01 regardles of properties of M1 0W40. M1 0W40 could have best cleaning properties, but pressures on camshaft do not have anything to do with cleaning.
Get M1 that meets 505.01. You can find that in Europe and I used it in Octavia several times.
Change oil several times sooner, like 5,000 km. Then increase to 10k. I would advise you when you change oil to let old oil runs out completely, meaning let it run for 30 minutes. It is amazing how much of an old oil stays inside if you just let it go out for few mins.

 

[Boatowner]

First of all, M-1 does not make a 505.01 compatible oil. Their 5w30 ESP is 507 rated, but not the best for pre common rail engines, which should have a 5w-40 oil. So, you find a good 505.01 oil, like Motul, or you do as most TDI owners have done and go with Mobil 1 TDT, which is a 5w-40 oil formulated for turbo diesel engines. You can also use Shell Rottela T full synthetic 5w-40. Those two oils have been found to have the best UOA results on TDIs, including PDs.

I change my oil at 5 to 6,000 miles with M1 TDT. My cam is fine, so far. Others can complain about my short OCI, but I have a lot of short trips.

I have not heard of sludge problems in a maintained TDI.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Boatowner
First of all, M-1 does not make a 505.01 compatible oil. Their 5w30 ESP is 507 rated, but not the best for pre common rail engines, which should have a 5w-40 oil. So, you find a good 505.01 oil, like Motul, or you do as most TDI owners have done and go with Mobil 1 TDT, which is a 5w-40 oil formulated for turbo diesel engines. You can also use Shell Rottela T full synthetic 5w-40. Those two oils have been found to have the best UOA results on TDIs, including PDs.

I change my oil at 5 to 6,000 miles with M1 TDT. My cam is fine, so far. Others can complain about my short OCI, but I have a lot of short trips.

I have not heard of sludge problems in a maintained TDI.


He is in Portugal!!!
In Europe you have M1 that meets 505.01! I was putting that oil several years ago in Skoda Octavia 1.9 tdi PD.
But I think ESP replaced that oil.

 

[TugaSaudade]

Originally Posted By: Boatowner
First of all, M-1 does not make a 505.01 compatible oil. Their 5w30 ESP is 507 rated, but not the best for pre common rail engines, which should have a 5w-40 oil. So, you find a good 505.01 oil, like Motul, or you do as most TDI owners have done and go with Mobil 1 TDT, which is a 5w-40 oil formulated for turbo diesel engines. You can also use Shell Rottela T full synthetic 5w-40. Those two oils have been found to have the best UOA results on TDIs, including PDs.

I change my oil at 5 to 6,000 miles with M1 TDT. My cam is fine, so far. Others can complain about my short OCI, but I have a lot of short trips.

I have not heard of sludge problems in a maintained TDI.


Well, the fact is that only M1 ESP 5w30 50700 and Mobil 3000 XE 5w40 are available to me, besides M1 New Life 0w40.
Not sure of its cleaning properties, but i'll probably give Mobil 3000 a try, since it has VW505.01 spec.

And edyvw, i'll run small OCI cycles for a while, as you suggested.
Thank you all for helping out.

 

[WBoer]

I don't know if it's available over there.

but I had very good results with Valvoline Durablend Diesel 5W40 50501. All tdi engines I have used this oil engines were very very clean.

 

[TugaSaudade]

Originally Posted By: WBoer
I don't know if it's available over there.

but I had very good results with Valvoline Durablend Diesel 5W40 50501. All tdi engines I have used this oil engines were very very clean.


Wish it was, but only Valvoline SynPower XL-III 5w30 (vw50700) and Valvoline Maxlife 5w40 (not vw50501) are available to me here.
I'll try searching the www for a european carrier, to avoid portuguese customs heavy tax.

Thanks for the tip, WBoer.

 

[FowVay]

Because this engine is very similar to the BEW PD TDI that was sold in the U.S. I'm going to suggest that you find a 5W-40 diesel approved oil. The 505.01 specification didn't prove to prevent camshaft wear problems in the USA and I doubt it does any better in Europe.

I personally won't use a 5w30 regardless of the rating in a PD engine. Get a 5W-40 505.01 or a MB 229.51 rated 5W-40 which should open your options a small bit.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: FowVay
Because this engine is very similar to the BEW PD TDI that was sold in the U.S. I'm going to suggest that you find a 5W-40 diesel approved oil. The 505.01 specification didn't prove to prevent camshaft wear problems in the USA and I doubt it does any better in Europe.

I personally won't use a 5w30 regardless of the rating in a PD engine. Get a 5W-40 505.01 or a MB 229.51 rated 5W-40 which should open your options a small bit.

I never heard of camshaft problems in Europe and I drove two cars with that engine and used Castrol 5W30, 5W40, Mobil1 5W40, OMV 5W40.

 

[FowVay]

I have two friends in the Stuttgart area with TDI Touran's and they both ate their camshafts. One had their car repaired and are still driving it and the other traded theirs for a Peugeot 206 gasser.

 

[WBoer]

I have 3 pd tdi's in service, 2 with +400.000km on the clock, never had a camshaft problem.
Running 5w40 505.01 oil and service every 15.000km from the beginning.

The only camshaft problem I have heard from, was a PD tdi running on longlife 5w30 (504/507.00)and 30.000km/2year service interval.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: WBoer
I have 3 pd tdi's in service, 2 with +400.000km on the clock, never had a camshaft problem.
Running 5w40 505.01 oil and service every 15.000km from the beginning.

The only camshaft problem I have heard from, was a PD tdi running on longlife 5w30 (504/507.00)and 30.000km/2year service interval.

Exactly! I did 15,000km service and 505.01 oils!

 

[TugaSaudade]

After reading here that VW50700 would not be the best choice for a 2002 PD TDi engine, and trying to avoid camshaft trouble, narrowed it down to 2 candidates:

Liqui (Lubro) Moly Synthoil longtime plus 0w30 (full synth)

Specifications / Approvals:
ACEA A1/A5/B1/B5
VW 503 00/506 00/506 01

TECHNICAL
DATA Viscosity class : 0W-30
Density at 15 °C : 0.885 g/cm³
Viscosity at 40 °C : 52,6 mm2/s
Viscosity at 100 °C : 9.6 mm2/s
High shear/high
temperature viscosity : > 2.9 and < 3.4 mPa.s
Viscosity index : 169
Ash, sulphate : 1.3 g/100 g
Flash point : 220 °C
Pour point : -39 °C
ASTM colour : 2.0

And Motul Specific 50601 0w30 (full synth + ester)

STANDARDS ACEA A5 / B5
APPROVALS VW 506 01 – 506 00 – 503 00
Synthetic Ester base stocks and specific anti-friction additivation provide an outstanding oil film resistance, reducing friction in the engine, maintaining the oil pressure, and generally decreasing the operating temperature.
This 100% synthetic engine oil has been formulated, developed and tested according to the most recent technical requirements requested by VOLKSWAGEN

PROPERTIES
Viscosity grade SAE J 300 0W-30
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.851
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 54.1 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 9.7 mm²/s
Viscosity HTHS at 150°C (302°F) ASTM D4741 3.1 mPa.s
Viscosity index ASTM D2270 166
Pour point ASTM D97 -45°C / -49°F
Flash point ASTM D92 218°C / 424°F
TBN ASTM D2896 10.3 mg KOH/g

They both cost the same (65€) although i wonder if Liqui/Lubro Moly would have the advantage of beeing loaded with moly.. on the other hand, Motul assures that their Specific is an ester oil..

Opinions?

 

[edyvw]

You need 505.01 oil!

 

[Vincenzo_f]

Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
Hello all.
Although i've been following BITOG frequently, it has been quite a while since i posted.

I've recently traded my 101 bhp Skoda Fabia (VW gas engine code AUB) due to excessive oil consumption (design flaw similar to the Saturn) for another Skoda Fabia 101 bhp, this time with VW's 1.9 TDi engine, code ATD.

Skoda are currently the VW entry level brand, and since i love the Fabia model, i switched to a TDi to get rid of the dreaded oil consumption, and at the same time better fuel economy.


Car was a real bargain, but after finally tracking down the first owner, she told me the car only had VW dealer maintenance while the 2 year warranty lasted, and after that switched to a local mechanic that serviced the car for the 8 years that followed.
Last oil change she had record of was with a cheap 10w40 semi-sinth without the VW50501 spec.

Assuming that this engine was seriously neglected, i had the oil changed with BP Visco 7000 5w30 full synth, with the VW50700 spec, and had fitted today an oil pressure gauge to monitor oil pressures.
I was horrified with the pictures of a BMW E46 323ci engine sludged like i never seen before, not even here on BITOG, and i wish to prevent such scenario.
Specially after its owner tried a few flushes and ended up starving the engine of oil.

MY oil choices here are limited, but i have access to Mobil 1 0w40 and Motul Specific 506.01 0w30 ester-based synth.
Or would it be more reasonable to use a cheap semi-synth and some very short OCI's?

Thank you my fellow BITOG'ers.


Hi Tuga.
My advice for preventing sludge is:
1)use a good oil like those that you have listed.
2)if yopu have less than 100.000km start to perform a simple engine flush with specific product every 50.000 km.

Now i have a Honda Civic FK3 (turbo diesel) and are at 130000 km with engine in perfect and clean condition.

 

[weebl]

Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
After reading here that VW50700 would not be the best choice for a 2002 PD TDi engine, and trying to avoid camshaft trouble


I used to have an ALH, loved that engine, and I believe it was probably one of VAG's best diesels. In North America, the successor to that engine starting in 2004 was the infamous BEW (also known as the "PD" or pumpe-duse). I see that your ATD is very closely related to the BEW, and from the sounds of it, shares the engineering flaws.

This engine is known for excessive cam lobe wear. Members at forums.tdiclub.com have found that a mitigating factor for some is to go outside of the 505.01 oil spec. Rotella T6 was one I remember, I seem to think maybe also M1 TDT, though not 100% sure on that. Going outside the oil spec, those under warranty risked VW invalidating warranty claims, though the flip side was they were likely delaying the inevitable failure resulting from the cam lobe wear. Sorry, but I am now knowledgable on the oil choices you've listed so I'm afraid I can't help you with that. You are on the right track in seeking out something better than the 505.01, though.

As years have passed, it seems some feel that the cam lobe problem's root cause is that VW had an inappropriately designed cam for the aggressive settings on this engine, resulting in the aftermarket engineering a more suitable replacement.

Going back to your ATD engine, it may not have been that big a deal the previous owner strayed from the 505.01 oils. If it runs fine, and you have no reason to suspect sludge, I would not worry about it.

I strongly suggest you try doing some reading on forums.tdiclub.com. You will find owners of the related BEW stating what they found worked or didn't work for them. Given the age of your engine, I would not constrain yourself to a 505.01 oil, but rather look for oil choices likely to aid in slowing the excessive wear, regardless of what specification the oil carries. You may even find some ATD owners on there, as there is a small contingent of European members. If you delay the need for cam replacement until the car dies of other causes, then great. If not, you've bought some time at least, and if the inevitable does occur during your ownership, I do suggest looking at an aftermarket replacement made to address this issue.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
You need 505.01 oil!


Really? Because VW said so? He is out of warranty, and I have reaason to believe that specification is lacking in protecting this engine. If I bought a related BEW equipped car out of warranty, I would not necessarily use a 505.01 oil myself.