Pentastar 3.6 With Loud Ticking - Visual Inspection To Determine Extent Of Damage?

[Number_35]

I had mentioned in this thread that I knew a young couple with a high-mileage (somewhere N of 250K km/150K miles) 2016 Dodge Grand Caravan with the Pentastar 3.6:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...entastar-3-6l-head.368917/page-3#post-6496164

The valve-train noise has gotten louder, and their local indy garage (in a small town) has told them that the engine is shot.

I advised my friend (her father) to get a 2nd opinion. I corresponded with the service writer of the trusted shop that did my AC, and asked whether they could quickly determine how bad the engine damage was. He said there was no magic bullet - they would have to pull the valve covers and do a visual inspection.

I think I can do that for them, but wonder exactly what to look for.

I understand that the needle bearings in the roller lifters fail, the rollers stop turning, and the camshaft gets beaten up pretty quickly. If left long enough, bits from the cam get spread through out the engine, and eventually eat up the bearings, and that's it for the engine.

1. Is my understanding of the Pentastar problems correct?

2. If I see a scarred roller but the cam's OK, I presume it's OK to replace just that one rocker-arm assembly, correct?

3. If the cam is beaten up but there are no bottom-end knocks, would it be OK to change out just the head on that side?

I guess that before pulling the valve covers I should listen for any knocking (rather than the distinctive valve-train clicking).

Thanks!

 

[cptbarkey]

So, what engine codes are appearing? My 2014 at 70k dropped a valve seat and it clearly had a CEL and misfire. It got a new cylinder head under warranty but unforunately it was out of service for 2 months. I sold it and bought a Sienna, never looked back.

 

[Number_35]

@cptbarkey, I don't think there's a code. I haven't seen the van recently, but last year it was running well but ticking. Apparently it's gotten a lot louder.

 

[Danno]

If the cams are wiped, they look like this. From a mechanic's bench at our Dodge Ram Jeep dealership.

 

[ms21043]

Don't think I'd yank a head for a worn cam. Just replace the cam.

 

[super20dan]

junk it

 

[Number_35]

junk it

In pre-COVID times, that might have been an option.

Used vans are now really expensive here. The cost of replacing it would be way more than the cost of engine repairs or a used engine.

With a dying engine, the van is not worth much. With a repaired or used engine, it's probably worth $10K or more.

The van is otherwise in good shape.

 

[AmBeRnEcTaR]

I'm starting to realize the Pentastar is a very polarizing engine...

 

[Number_35]

I'm starting to realize the Pentastar is a very polarizing engine...

I think the great majority of them are good. There were some problems in the early years (c. 2011 - 2013), attributed to substandard roller materials or manufacturing.

The valve-train problems can still show up in later years, but are more likely to be due to extended oil changes.

The engine produces good power amd economy for its size.

 

[demarpaint]

Considering there were 10,000,000 made, not counting the PUG upgrade version of the engine, which adds few million more, and still counting. I think the engine is doing well, haters will hate. Just look at the EV threads. All kidding aside, I'd consider a Jasper engine, or something out of a wreck. There are also companies that sell low mileage 3.6L engines from Jeeps where people swapped out their engine for a Hemi. In any event there are lots of options.

 

[dogememe]

I think the great majority of them are good. There were some problems in the early years (c. 2011 - 2013), attributed to substandard roller materials or manufacturing.

The valve-train problems can still show up in later years, but are more likely to be due to extended oil changes.

The engine produces good power amd economy for its size.

I think overall they are decent. I almost bought a brand new Charger V6 a few years back. But my credit wasn’t good enough. But if I had I bet I’d make it to 200K no problem.

I do think it’s better to replace the whole engine. Most shops won’t just replace a cam, they’d rather drop in a whole engine with a warranty. Of course, if you do the job yourself, you can do what you please.

 

[Samrsnow]

I would get it torn down and inspected. I have seen it go either way with damages ranging from no cam replacement to every cam, rocker, and lifter being replaced ($450ish per cam). I've done CDJR parts for 3 years now and usually it's just one or two rockers that have failed but techs will quote all rockers/lifters as precaution which is understandable from a dealer's standpoint of liability and warranty claims. Some extended warranties will only approve the singular defective rocker or lifter and honestly sometimes that's really all it needs.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I had mentioned in this thread that I knew a young couple with a high-mileage (somewhere N of 250K km/150K miles) 2016 Dodge Grand Caravan with the Pentastar 3.6:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...entastar-3-6l-head.368917/page-3#post-6496164

The valve-train noise has gotten louder, and their local indy garage (in a small town) has told them that the engine is shot.

I advised my friend (her father) to get a 2nd opinion. I corresponded with the service writer of the trusted shop that did my AC, and asked whether they could quickly determine how bad the engine damage was. He said there was no magic bullet - they would have to pull the valve covers and do a visual inspection.

I think I can do that for them, but wonder exactly what to look for.

...

Thanks!

There are a a lot of videos on YT showing how to replace the rockers without pulling a cam if the cam lobes are serviceable to semi serviceable. Some videos are better than others, I'd watch a few.

If that cam isn't totally chewed but a bit scored, I'd pop out and replace the shot rockers which will quiet it and sell/trade the thing.
Man, working on pulling the VC on the transverse DT is a pain vs the longitudinal one I imagine. Might as well plan the day
and have availability of rockers and VC gasket set from a local dealer if you already have the VC off.
Good luck to all!
- Ken

 

[Number_35]

My friend (the owner's dad) and I went out to look at the van a few days ago.

It's now at 275,000 km (about 170,000 miles). The valve-train noise is quite loud. I did not hear any knocking from the bottom end.

We stopped in to talk to the service writer at their local garage. Given the mileage on the engine, the need to replace at least one rocker ass'y (but likely more, plus very possibly one or more camshafts), plus the shop's risk in replacing only the obviously bad components and then having something else fail within the warranty period, I think that the shop's recommendation to replace the engine is very reasonable from their (the shop's) perspective. Plus, at that mileage I wonder about the timing chain.

The quoted price of C$6K initially sounds high, but the cost of bringing in an engine would be well over half of that. (I requested a quotation online - over C$3K, plus shipping plus taxes.)

Assuming the shop would pay a similar amount, there's still a lot of labour plus new oil and coolant, perhaps new plugs into the new engine, etc. Plus, they have to mark up the replacement engine in case in case it fails within the warranty period.

So I'm not sure how much more to be involved. I'm busy until mid-August, and at that point would be willing to pull the valve covers and change out the bad rocker(s), but don't think I want to get into changing out camshafts.

In this time of inflated used-car prices, combined with a real shortage of used minivans, it's hard to know whether to replace the van or repair it. I also wonder how much life the transmission has left.

Just throwing this out there ... I'm not sure there's an obvious way to proceed.

 

[Chris142]

Something like this

 

[ms21043]

Pine Hollow Diagnostic video. In this one the customer replaces a pentastar cam in the parking lot in less than an hour. Looks easy.

 

[KrisZ]

I presume the shop is going to put in a used engine? It may very well develop the same problem. And if the maintenance was sketchy, it can be quite soon.

I would find a shop that will fix this issue. All the other stuff you mentioned, timing chain, bottom end, are not a problem areas on these engines.

The rocker arm and even the camshaft replacement is quite easy, the shop is clearly looking for an upsale and what’s more profitable to them.

 

[MattPersman]

You can easily find a guy at a Chrysler dealer to do that labor job on the side. All of us have done dozens and dozens of them.

If you want a receipt and warranty get it done through the dealer. Have them replace whatver cam or cams are bad and all 24 lifters and rockers. Should be good to go for another stretch. Trans will likely go before there is another valve train issue

 

[JTK]

.......In this time of inflated used-car prices, combined with a real shortage of used minivans, it's hard to know whether to replace the van or repair it. I also wonder how much life the transmission has left.

Just throwing this out there ... I'm not sure there's an obvious way to proceed.

That's the problem with today's engines. Once you figure in the cost of troubleshooting and tearing into them, the costs start to approach just swapping the engine with a reman or known good unit. I wonder at ~170K miles if they'd be better off with a used engine + transmission combo instead of just the engine.

Lots can go wrong at the ~10yr point on a higher mileage vehicle. Expensive HVAC problems, etc.

 

[JC1]

I had mentioned in this thread that I knew a young couple with a high-mileage (somewhere N of 250K km/150K miles) 2016 Dodge Grand Caravan with the Pentastar 3.6:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...entastar-3-6l-head.368917/page-3#post-6496164

The valve-train noise has gotten louder, and their local indy garage (in a small town) has told them that the engine is shot.

I advised my friend (her father) to get a 2nd opinion. I corresponded with the service writer of the trusted shop that did my AC, and asked whether they could quickly determine how bad the engine damage was. He said there was no magic bullet - they would have to pull the valve covers and do a visual inspection.

I think I can do that for them, but wonder exactly what to look for.

I understand that the needle bearings in the roller lifters fail, the rollers stop turning, and the camshaft gets beaten up pretty quickly. If left long enough, bits from the cam get spread through out the engine, and eventually eat up the bearings, and that's it for the engine.

1. Is my understanding of the Pentastar problems correct?

2. If I see a scarred roller but the cam's OK, I presume it's OK to replace just that one rocker-arm assembly, correct?

3. If the cam is beaten up but there are no bottom-end knocks, would it be OK to change out just the head on that side?

I guess that before pulling the valve covers I should listen for any knocking (rather than the distinctive valve-train clicking).

Thanks!

Looks like your could get a used engine starting at $1000 CDN. maybe $1000 for labor to install?

I checked this link and put a Winnipeg postal code

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