Outrageous Dealer Add-Ons and Fees - When Will They Learn?

[JHZR2]

Yes, I don't think anyone in this thread has said that Toyota, or any other manufacturer, hasn't had any issues at all whatsoever. But, if you could find some data/stats on reported issues on 2018+ Odysseys vs. 2020+ Sienna Hybrids, we are probably going to see a trend where the Odyssey issues are going to be more. The other thing as well is the Odyssey still using a timing belt that needs to be replaced every ~100k or so, as an additional data point against the Odyssey.

What year/trim is your friends Sienna hybrid?

The only thing we found worse on the Sienna vs. the Odyssey was the center console area of the Sienna. We didn't like how raised it was. We like the open area of the Odyssey in there. But that's more aesthetics than a problem or issue. Everything else, sans the "magic seat" of the Odyssey, we loved on the Sienna.

2015 and the fancy one - limited?

When we shopped, couldn’t stand the ergonomics of the screens and whatnot on the sienna.

I originally went in thinking we would buy a sienna, given that I grew up in, and even learning to drive in a Previa.

The TB thing is way overblown imo.

 

[I<3oil]

2015 and the fancy one - limited?

When we shopped, couldn’t stand the ergonomics of the screens and whatnot on the sienna.

I originally went in thinking we would buy a sienna, given that I grew up in, and even learning to drive in a Previa.

The TB thing is way overblown imo.

Oh, we're talking the newer 2021+ hybrid Sienna, not the last gen.

 

[JHZR2]

Oh, we're talking the newer 2021+ hybrid Sienna, not the last gen.

I know we are. But a major portion of the “reliability” issues outside of the engine and transmission will be related to the van, not if it’s a hybrid or not…. Bad sunroof seals and poorly operating doors are irrelevant to the hybrid status.

The zf 9sp transmission was a different design than the 10.



It’s not like people aren’t getting hybrid system malfunctions and siennas stuck at dealers for a month too. Build bigger, more complex stuff, and it’s just more likely for stuff to fail…

 

[I<3oil]

I know we are. But a major portion of the “reliability” issues outside of the engine and transmission will be related to the van, not if it’s a hybrid or not…. Bad sunroof seals and poorly operating doors are irrelevant to the hybrid status.

The zf 9sp transmission was a different design than the 10.



It’s not like people aren’t getting hybrid system malfunctions and siennas stuck at dealers for a month too. Build bigger, more complex stuff, and it’s just more likely for stuff to fail…

This would be true if we were talking about similar years. The 2021+ were redesigned so any "door issues" or "poor sunroof seals" might not be the same from generation to generation as the manufacturer can fix or change suppliers. Hence, me asking you for data/statistics regarding the 2021+ hybrids as that's what we were talking about.

 

[JHZR2]

This would be true if we were talking about similar years. The 2021+ were redesigned so any "door issues" or "poor sunroof seals" might not be the same from generation to generation as the manufacturer can fix or change suppliers. Hence, me asking you for data/statistics regarding the 2021+ hybrids as that's what we were talking about.

Agree, but it is just as likely that new issues arise.

Point is, the “it’s a Toyota, so we can blindly assume it will be reliable” has been proven in many cases to be moot. Add a more complex drivetrain (I’m not a hybrid hater by any means), and there is more to go wrong long term, which can’t happen yet when the latest model came out in 2021. So it’s all based upon assumptions of how great Toyota is.

Frankly, data/statistics from a model that has only been out three years doesn’t really tell me much about reliability besides infant mortality and some user satisfaction. 10 years/100k will be better to shake out statistically significant details.

So since it really is just speculation on two brands with recent new models, the old outcomes are as good as anything to foreshadow future results

 

[JTK]

Luckily the big multi brand dealers in the Buffalo area wait till the end with your painful sit down with the F&I guy, to try adding things to the sale. You can say no and they eventually give up.

Dealer doc fees are capped at $175 in NY and all the dealers I've dealt with over the years take the full amount.

 

[MCompact]

In 1995 I ordered my Club Sport from a fellow BMW CCA member in Chicago. My wife, son and I flew up one weekend and drove it home. That’s the farthest I’ve ever gone to buy a car.

 

[JHZR2]

In 1995 I ordered my Club Sport from a fellow BMW CCA member in Chicago. My wife, son and I flew up one weekend and drove it home. That’s the farthest I’ve ever gone to buy a car.

Such fun! I’ve bought a bunch of cars across country and enjoyed the journey.

Next time we need a new car I do intend to shop in oddball areas that I want to visit and make a vacation out of it.

The beauty of it is that it forces all the planning and ordering in writing and then I can find the right dealer that doesn’t have the stupid things that the OP mentioned.

 

[Bill7]

Shopping for a new 2024 Odyssey, as we just found out we're expecting our 4th child, and, by the end of the year, we'll have 4 children under 4 years old!

My SOP is to treat the car-buying process as a bid, emailing multiple dealerships to inquire how much they're willing to discount their stock.

Our closest Honda store, Darrell Waltrip Honda in Franklin, has several Odysseys, and every one of them has over $3000 in dealer added garbage, including "LoJack Connect", a $1500 system for locating your car if it's stolen (Apple AirTags are $29), $300 for door cups (clear film under the door handles), $500 for window tint (that much for only the front windows!). And their doc fee is $750!

When will they come to the realization that most people don't want this stuff, and recognize that it's simply a profit-padder for the greedy dealerships? And it just aggravates the customer and creates ill will.

After contacting about a dozen dealerships, I will say that I've found one dealer - Classic Honda out of Galveston, that proudly advertises zero add-ons, and has the lowest price I've found - about 8% off MSRP on a Touring model after local Texas taxes and fees (not including my Tennessee taxes), and a (reasonable for 2024) $150 doc fee.

I guess Tennessee dealers are just extra greedy. I've bought 3 new vehicles since 2007 (2007 Tacoma, 2016 WRX, and 2021 4Runner), and I had to go out of state to find a dealer that would sell for a fair price on all 3 of them. Got the Tacoma and the WRX out of AR (Central Toyota in Jonesboogie and the WRX out of Little Rock), and the 4Runner from Vandergriff out of DFW. And it's looking like that's going to be the case again.

I've had a couple of closer dealers offer discounts of 2-3 grand, but they had a bunch of add-ons that are sinking their offer.

Glad the new vehicle market is softening a bit after the craziness of MSRP and "market adjustments" of 2021 into 2023.

If you're in the market for a vehicle (depending on what it is), don't be fooled into paying markups and paying for silly dealer add-ons that just serve to line the dealer's pockets. Just don't buy from those dealers. EVERYTHING is negotiable, as long as it's not a model that's super in-demand (yes, of course, demand sets price - that goes for anything).

Thanks - This was a great post. Should I ever buy a new Odyssey, Classic Honda out of Galveston Texas would be the way to go.
There are several options in that area for having the vehicle shipped to your home. Not that much money (like $1500) to go cross county by the truck that hauls the vehicles. Still a big savings.

 

[I<3oil]

Agree, but it is just as likely that new issues arise.

Point is, the “it’s a Toyota, so we can blindly assume it will be reliable” has been proven in many cases to be moot. Add a more complex drivetrain (I’m not a hybrid hater by any means), and there is more to go wrong long term, which can’t happen yet when the latest model came out in 2021. So it’s all based upon assumptions of how great Toyota is.

Frankly, data/statistics from a model that has only been out three years doesn’t really tell me much about reliability besides infant mortality and some user satisfaction. 10 years/100k will be better to shake out statistically significant details.

So since it really is just speculation on two brands with recent new models, the old outcomes are as good as anything to foreshadow future results

Definitely not moot at all, especially given multiple reliability studies regarding brands in general.

3 years of data is better than 2 years is better than 1 year is better than none at all. Is it going to tell us 20 years down the road? Of course not but it’s also not meant to. It’s meant to give us ideas of initial issues and reliability to start a trend and baseline for future use.

But at this point, we’re just mindlessly squabbling since OP has made his mind up.

 

[michaelluscher]

More often than not, businesses ability to charge unwarranted fees is due to lack of competition and barriers to entry.

Over the past two decades, the amount of new car dealerships have reduced in numbers, while the American population has increased. In addition, many of the remaining new car dealerships, especially in urban and suburban areas, are owned by a major auto group, reducung actual competition even more.

Americans simply have less available options on where to buy a new car then they did just two decades ago. The dealer tricky charge game appears to have no end in sight. The only way to change it is to have more new car dealerships, which appears less likely because of barriers to enter the new car dealership market

Remember "Project 2000"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1992/11/15/gms-dealer-dilemma/edcbe51d-c97c-47e3-9d13-dfb4a6599a81/

Mix in large dealer holding companies (Autonation) and you get less competition

My locale is strangled by "Island" auto group, they own all the major brands except one
The Manfredi and Giuffre families have had us in a stranglehold when it comes to mainstream vehicles
I swear they're Sopranos rejects

 

[Elkins45]

Sarasota (FL) Toyota lists a $998 doc fee in the fine print on their used cars.

 

[1000MPH]

2010, when I bought my 4Runner, was my first time seeing this “fake add-on to the Monroney sticker” trick.
$2995 for cheap pinstripes and clear tape door edge guards. Such a sweet deal!

 

[KrisZ]

Congrats on the growing family! As far as the minivan choices go, I’d say go with whatever you fancy the most. The minivan segment is pretty much even and there aren’t huge outliers there, even Chrysler products are pretty much on par. They all have their own set of issues in one way or another.

 

[UncleDave]

2010, when I bought my 4Runner, was my first time seeing this “fake add-on to the Monroney sticker” trick.
$2995 for cheap pinstripes and clear tape door edge guards. Such a sweet deal!

View attachment 207616

Being in the sierra mountain gold country I see EXACTLY this naming convention and kind of stuff all the time.
The guys on the West side of the mountains pull the same stunt...

 

[PF52]

Being in the sierra mountain gold country I see EXACTLY this naming convention and kind of stuff all the time.
The guys on the West side of the mountains pull the same stunt...

Surely you realize it's gotta cost more than the Silver pack or the Bronze pack, right?

 

[Cherrybomb]

Interesting who's van is nicer,Toyota or Honda!But I'm in the market for a new vehicle and I was hoping for some tips or strategy ,experiences on fighting back to the add on game

 

[k1xv]

They will only learn when buyers refuse to buy.

I buy my Corvettes for MSRP with no market condition adjustments, advertising, or administrative fees. MSRP is what I pay. I order the car, the dealer submits the order to GM, the car ultimately gets built, and I pick it up at the dealer. Many other Corvette buyers pay way over MSRP at other dealers.

My dealer is MacMulkin Chevrolet, in Nashua New Hampshire. Because of their transparent and fair pricing policies, they sell over 1000 Corvettes per year to buyers all over the USA. Making them the highest volume Corvette dealer in the country.

 

[GON]

They will only learn when buyers refuse to buy.

I buy my Corvettes for MSRP with no market condition adjustments, advertising, or administrative fees. MSRP is what I pay. I order the car, the dealer submits the order to GM, the car ultimately gets built, and I pick it up at the dealer. Many other Corvette buyers pay way over MSRP at other dealers.

My dealer is MacMulkin Chevrolet, in Nashua New Hampshire. Because of their transparent and fair pricing policies, they sell over 1000 Corvettes per year to buyers all over the USA. Making them the highest volume Corvette dealer in the country.

Your discipline when it comes to vehicle purchases does not reflect many of your peers. Many in the US buy vehicles based on monthly payment price, not the out the door price. Sad, but reality.

 

[supton]

I buy my Corvettes for MSRP with no market condition adjustments, advertising, or administrative fees. MSRP is what I pay.

Many here would be horrified or offended to pay MSRP.

What’s worse, dealer markups on the sticker, or the F&I guy on the backend, whose job it is to add money back into the deal after you’ve reached a selling price? Last car I bought, the closing of the negotiation, they circled the number and wrote “OTD” on it, knowing that was my “tell” was. F&I guy was unfazed, had no end of add-ons for me to say no to (they got fazed when I held my ground). I can see how a lot of people would fold here, bit of a roller coaster, finally getting that which they want, but to finish the deal, it’s only a few more dollars a month to make this guy shut up…

I’ve always wondered, should I go back to a dealership that I did this to? I mean, once they know they can’t make money on the backend, will they negotiate harder on the front end? not sure, I simply do my best to avoid buying too often. Makes me bad at this process.