One Dodge running 5W20 rewrites all the engineering texts in history ?

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
I edited it because I hadn't spelled it out. My point was that it was series. And IMO it's because of improper engineering to handle the 20wt oil so it should be back peddled as a band-aid solution. There will always be these cases but it's not the majority of the engines out there that this is happening to. Or we wouldn't now see 16wt's.


That stretch of logic just plain doesn't work.

I linked the Honda paper where they explained their philosophy and it certainly wan't based on that sort of flawed logivcal stretch.



Originally Posted by StevieC
As for the Mustang that's a performance application.


quoted mid edit, so not sure what that means.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4290245/Ford_4.6L_DOHC_oil_opinions_-_

Scott Whitehead - Engine Development Systems Engineer, Ford Motor Company:

Quote: "I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please. This is especially true in 4v motors. 5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing"


Right a mod motor. Not a typical street motor that majority of vehicles are fine with 20's.


Yet Ford specifies 5W-20 for their modular motors ... go figure (hint: CAFE credits).

Yep, and then when they had problems with certain engines in the not so distant past that they spec'd for 20 grade oil they ditched the CAFE credits and went back to the 30 grade oil to reduce warranty claims. IIRC that was on this site a while back, I wish I could find it.. Yes we can say a majority of engines are fine on 20 grade oil, but those weren't. Imagine driving 50K or more and then finding out the oil grade isn't up to par. That would suck......

 

[StevieC]

Answer this... Why hasn't the 20wt spec been eliminated if it's such a problem? Why is 16 weights now the next thing if 20wt's were such a problem? Also why do the majority of vehicles on the road live long lives with 20 weights that are spec'ed for them?

This is real world and cars aren't living short lives because 20wts are used and living longer with 30wts. Provide proof this is happening.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
I edited it because I hadn't spelled it out. My point was that it was series. And IMO it's because of improper engineering to handle the 20wt oil so it should be back peddled as a band-aid solution. There will always be these cases but it's not the majority of the engines out there that this is happening to. Or we wouldn't now see 16wt's.

As for the Mustang that's a performance application.


OK, but mod motor doesn't mean modified, it's simply in reference to a Modular engine from Ford, I think that's perhaps the point of confusion, or seemed to be

Yes, the Mustang is a performance application.

- The non Track Pack version had a thermal castration mechanism that limited output if oil temperature got too high. Member SteveSRT8 witnessed this happening to a buddy of his with his new GT IIRC at the track.
- The Track Pack version came fitted with an oil cooler and a spec for 5w-50. It either eliminated the thermal castration mechanism or it had a higher thermal threshold.

What this demonstrates is that the heavier oil is more suitable for applications that are more demanding, like track use. Oil temperature is also a key component and this can be controlled via sump size and coolers. Ford trucks have much more surface area for cooling than the Mustang.

Another example would be the 5.7L HEMI vs the 6.4L, which share a significant number of internal parts. The former spec's 5w-20 the latter 0w-40 due to intended use.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Answer this... Why hasn't the 20wt spec been eliminated if it's such a problem? Why is 16 weights now the next thing if 20wt's were such a problem? Also why do the majority of vehicles on the road live long lives with 20 weights that are spec'ed for them?

This is real world and cars aren't living short lives because 20wts are used and living longer with 30wts. Provide proof this is happening.


again....
Originally Posted by Shannow

I am offering what the OEMS and legislator are saying.
They are trading off economy (or CO2, pick your market), while trying to make "acceptable" compromises in longevity (that's Honda)
That they put in performance management systems to neuter the engines when it's performance envelope outstretches the lube they put in (That's Subaru/Toyota in the BRZ/86 "sports car")
When they do so, they MUST make every reasonable effort to ensure that owners use those lubes (that's the EPA to Honda and Ford).

And if the car makes it to the junkyard with 100,000 miles left on the engine rather than 150,000 miles, it's a perfectly valid tradeoff.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
As for the Mustang that's a performance application.


And Ford specifies 5W-30 in the 2015+ Mustangs sold in Australia ... wonder why? (hint: no CAFE credits). And no, there is no difference in the Coyote engine internals used in export Mustangs.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by StevieC
Answer this... Why hasn't the 20wt spec been eliminated if it's such a problem? Why is 16 weights now the next thing if 20wt's were such a problem? Also why do the majority of vehicles on the road live long lives with 20 weights that are spec'ed for them?

This is real world and cars aren't living short lives because 20wts are used and living longer with 30wts. Provide proof this is happening.


again....
Originally Posted by Shannow

I am offering what the OEMS and legislator are saying.
They are trading off economy (or CO2, pick your market), while trying to make "acceptable" compromises in longevity (that's Honda)
That they put in performance management systems to neuter the engines when it's performance envelope outstretches the lube they put in (That's Subaru/Toyota in the BRZ/86 "sports car")
When they do so, they MUST make every reasonable effort to ensure that owners use those lubes (that's the EPA to Honda and Ford).

And if the car makes it to the junkyard with 100,000 miles left on the engine rather than 150,000 miles, it's a perfectly valid tradeoff.





Show me the proof that cars are lasting a lot less time on 20wt versus 30wt because of the CAFE standard. That's what I asked. Not what OE's are doing and why.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Answer this... Why hasn't the 20wt spec been eliminated if it's such a problem? Why is 16 weights now the next thing if 20wt's were such a problem? Also why do the majority of vehicles on the road live long lives with 20 weights that are spec'ed for them?

This is real world and cars aren't living short lives because 20wts are used and living longer with 30wts. Provide proof this is happening.



As long as oil temperature can be controlled, or, in worst case, specific output can be limited, then it isn't an issue. Low load city use doesn't drive up oil temperature to race track levels and thus, xW-20 is sufficient for this usage profile. xw-16 yields yet another incremental gain in friction reduction during warm-up, thus lowering fuel consumption and aiding CAFE. The same chain of logic for its usage works, as does 0w-12 and 0w-8. This is all focused on fuel economy, particularly below operating temperature where the biggest delta in viscosity between start and operation exists.

This is also why coolant/oil heat exchangers are becoming more common, as they not only work to limit oil temperature, they also bring it up to temperature far quicker, lowering fuel usage and improving CAFE performance.

 

[StevieC]

Right and if they aren't controlling oil temperatures in those normal applications (non-racing/performance etc.) then that's on the OE not engineering the engine properly not the fault of the oil weight itself and now requiring a band-aid thicker weight to fix their mistakes.

Seems Toyota and other OE's have their stuff together and can engineer an engine to run perfectly fine and for the same lifespan on 20 and even 16 weights as other OE's need 30 weights to achieve.

My Toyota has this exchanger for the oil in the transmission and the engine oil. And yeah I know it's for both heating and keeping temperatures manageable.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4290245/Ford_4.6L_DOHC_oil_opinions_-_

Scott Whitehead - Engine Development Systems Engineer, Ford Motor Company - Quote:
"I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please. This is especially true in 4v motors. 5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing"

Also, more info from withing Ford:
http://mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112712

Ford Racing Group apparently feels the same way:

FRPP Group - Quote:
"DO NOT go back to using 5w-20"

Some of the best data from the modular community has come from Nick McKinney - Quote:
"I have said it a few times now, heavier oil has better protection especially in the cam bores. ---I get 2-3 sets of modular heads a week through here, and any lay person just from looking would pick the 500,000 mile cores run on 15W-40 diesel spec all their lives over the typical Mustang head run 50,000 miles on the light stuff"

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
And Ford with the Mustang GT non Track Pack. Track Pack brought an oil cooler and 5w-50.


All 2015+ Coyote engines have a coolant to oil heat exchanger - Track Pack has a larger radiator however.

 

[nap]

Originally Posted by StevieC
And IMO it's because of improper engineering to handle the 20wt oil so it should be back peddled as a band-aid solution.


I don't think I'm following you correctly here, what is the improper engineering, designing the engine in a certain way, or specifying the wrong oil for it?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by nap
Originally Posted by StevieC
And IMO it's because of improper engineering to handle the 20wt oil so it should be back peddled as a band-aid solution.


I don't think I'm following you correctly here, what is the improper engineering, designing the engine in a certain way, or specifying the wrong oil for it?


If an OE spec's a 20wt oil and then has to back peddle it to a 30wt because of some issue that it can't handle the 20wt without some sort of problem. This is poor engineering on the OE's part to have built the engine for the oil specification they printed in the manual. Whether that be enhanced oil cooling, changing bearing design or whatever it is that is stopping the engine from running on the 20wt like any other engine that is spec'ed for it and runs fine on it.

Hope that makes is more clear.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Quote
Scott Whitehead - Engine Development Systems Engineer, Ford Motor Company - Quote:
"I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please. This is especially true in 4v motors. 5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing"


He hasn't worked for Ford in years AFAIK and some say he's disgruntled with whispers he has an ax to grind. Read into that what you will. He offers no proof, no pic's, and now seems to work in the racing industry that - yup!- using largely thin oils! But I'd love to see how he arrived at the conclusion that 5W-30 is going to prevent the supposed wear in "4v' motors. I mean, when it sheared down, does the engine start wearing more?

 

[StevieC]

Did you see this just posted in the UOA section?

 

[nap]

Stevie: Except we don't know whether the engine was designed with that oil in mind from the beginning, or whether the idea of using a cafe scoring oil came sometime later.....

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by nap
Except we don't know whether the engine was designed with that oil in mind from the beginning, or whether the idea of using a cafe scoring oil came sometime later.....


That's irrelevant apparently because according to the OP in the other thread it would appear that the lubricant's weight is the problem not the engineering of the engine using it which is what I was arguing is the case if it couldn't survive on the 20wt it was spec'ed for.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
Quote
Scott Whitehead - Engine Development Systems Engineer, Ford Motor Company - Quote:
"I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please. This is especially true in 4v motors. 5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing"


He hasn't worked for Ford in years AFAIK and some say he's disgruntled with whispers he has an ax to grind. Read into that what you will. He offers no proof, no pic's, and now seems to work in the racing industry that - yup!- using largely thin oils! But I'd love to see how he arrived at the conclusion that 5W-30 is going to prevent the supposed wear in "4v' motors. I mean, when it sheared down, does the engine start wearing more?


What happens when 5W-20 shears down? ... seems it would be an even worse situation.

Whitehead worked on the S550 6th Gen Mustang (2015+), so he was at Ford not that long ago. As far as full blown race cars running thin oil, they can get away with it because they keep it cool with crazy oil coolers. I'm sure they also run the highest HTHS oil in the thinnest viscosity they can get away with. NASCARs run thin oil too to gain every last possible HP ... again, cooled down to a safe level to make it work, plus they only care if the motor lasts to the checkered flag. Most high performance street vehicles have some kind of oil cooler these days ... even my 2005 Tacoma V6 has a coolant-to-oil cooler, even though it's speced for 5W-30.

 

[nap]

Stevie: It is relevant because it would enlighten us on whether the engineers were at fault or whether it was the bean counting department that meddled too much. Administrative decisions based on $$$ don't count as engineering errors.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
Quote
Scott Whitehead - Engine Development Systems Engineer, Ford Motor Company - Quote:
"I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please. This is especially true in 4v motors. 5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing"


He hasn't worked for Ford in years AFAIK and some say he's disgruntled with whispers he has an ax to grind. Read into that what you will. He offers no proof, no pic's, and now seems to work in the racing industry that - yup!- using largely thin oils! But I'd love to see how he arrived at the conclusion that 5W-30 is going to prevent the supposed wear in "4v' motors. I mean, when it sheared down, does the engine start wearing more?


What happens when 5W-20 shears down? ... seems it would be an even worse situation.

Whitehead worked on the S550 6th Gen Mustang (2015+), so he was at Ford not that long ago. As far as full blown race cars running thin oil, they can get away with it because they keep it cool with crazy oil coolers. I'm sure they also run the highest HTHS oil in the thinnest viscosity they can get away with. NASCARs run thin oil too to gain every last possible HP ... again, cooled down to a safe level to make it work, plus they only care if the motor lasts to the checkered flag.



They engineer for this to either not happen or to be acceptable limits within the OCI.

My OCI in the Highlander is 10,000 miles (16,000km) on 0w20 and it's Direct Injected. It calls for 0w20.