Oil Filter Choice for December 2018

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Plan B, as you should always use a Fram Ultra, and its good up to 20,000 miles anyway. It's got plenty of margin for smaller 10,000 mile intervals here.
Logically, since the Fram Ultra outperforms the OE oil filter, one should use it.
If someone on this thread "likes" the OEM oil filter, please tell why. You can't just say "I'm an OEM oil filter guy." There needs to be a rational reason why you want to use an inferior oil filter.

Because no one has shown the gross failures in OEM Toyota filters here as they have shown for other brands. Because I've gotten to 400,000 miles on my Sienna, and over half that on my other cars using OEM filters with no abnormal consumption (and good leakdown results in my Honda).

If I don't make it to 500,000 in the Sienna it isn't going to be because of the oil filters I've used.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Patrick0525
I live in the Northeast and usually change the oil near the end of December and then again in mid-April. The reason is that the cold winters usually drop the oil's flash point by 20 to 35F with some measurable Blackstone uoa fuel dilution but not DI engine level significant.

The question is which filter to choose in December:
A) Toyota OEM filter and then in April switch back to the Fram Ultra filter.
B) Fram Ultra filter and then drain/refill in April

Which scenario A or B ?

I like B despite the 1qt of dirty winter engine oil.


Guess I'm missing why you wouldn't want to not use the Ultra in this scenario?

 

[Patrick0525]

Originally Posted by goodtimes
There was a Blackstone particle count test from someone here comparing two filters in the same vehicle, a Fram Ultra and a no name filter. The no name won, not by a little.
This is why it would be nice to see particle count tests from vehicles and not make up stories about Toyota wants more flow etc.. The flow is the same, oil pump not filter dependent. Yet the false idea will continue there is no doubt about it.



My posted particle count test.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-fe-tgmo-with-particle-count#Post4753405

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Great flow characteristics and excellent filtration.


Got any flow test data on that filter you can link up? Since it's full synthetic it probably does flow well, but I like seeing measured flow vs delta-p data.

 

[Patrick0525]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Patrick0525
I live in the Northeast and usually change the oil near the end of December and then again in mid-April. The reason is that the cold winters usually drop the oil's flash point by 20 to 35F with some measurable Blackstone uoa fuel dilution but not DI engine level significant.

The question is which filter to choose in December:
A) Toyota OEM filter and then in April switch back to the Fram Ultra filter.
B) Fram Ultra filter and then drain/refill in April

Which scenario A or B ?

I like B despite the 1qt of dirty winter engine oil.


Guess I'm missing why you'd want to not use the Ultra in this scenario?


If I do B, there would be 1 qt of low flashpoint dirty oil.
If I do A, I would not be using a Toyota OE with "less oil filtration efficiency".

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Patrick0525
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Guess I'm missing why you'd want to not use the Ultra in this scenario?


If I do B, there would be 1 qt of low flashpoint dirty oil.
If I do A, I would not be using a Toyota OE with "less oil filtration efficiency".


You have info/data that says a quart (and actually it's probably less than that) left in the engine that supposedly has a "lower flashpoint" is going to hurt something?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by StevieC
Toyota has horrible filtration with something like 50% efficiency of particles at 20 micron. They are more concerned with flow than filtration because they have done testing and concluded that their engines don't make as many particles in the 20 micron and smaller range so absolute filtration isn't as important as an abundance of oil. Some of this information was confirmed with Terry, some of it I have read about.

I use Amsoil's filter not based on the graphic below but because I want better filtration than the OE filter in case Toyota is wrong about the need.

"horrible filtration" and yet I just got to 400,000 miles on my old Sienna using the Toyota OEM filters almost exclusively since new. Same on my ECHO, and Honda OEM filters on the Accord. No abnormal consumption on any of them, how did I manage?

I mean really, people need to explain this if oil filtration efficiency is so vitally important to engine longevity. I just did a leakdown test on my Honda and it was actually pretty good.


Prove that it was the oil filter that did that for you. Toyota's engines are well built by nature. I doubt the filter had anything to do with it other than being an insurance policy. If you read what I wrote, I said I want the efficiency of filtering down to 20 microns for my own piece of mind. I also provided testing proof that I can find that shows Toyota's filter didn't fare well at 20 micron efficiency compared to competitors.

Where is YOUR proof that this isn't the case?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by StevieC
Great flow characteristics and excellent filtration.


Got any flow test data on that filter you can link up? Since it's full synthetic it probably does flow well, but I like seeing measured flow vs delta-p data.


Ask Pablo if he has it but this (below quote) is on their website... I know from my experience where I had lots of noisy lifters with Hyundai filters and a bunch of other brands I tried I had 0 with the Amsoil EAO filter I used so I never went back. I equate this to more flow as Amsoil claims is the case with their filters.

Quote
Less Restriction:

Proper oil flow is essential to keeping engine parts lubricated at all times. AMSOIL
Ea Oil Filters’ synthetic fibers are smaller than the fibers used in traditional filters,
allowing Ea Oil Filters to provide lower restriction. During cold-temperature warmup
periods, an Ea Oil Filter allows the oil to flow through the filter more easily than
a typical cellulose filter does. Lower restriction decreases engine wear.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2192.pdf

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by goodtimes
There was a Blackstone particle count test from someone here comparing two filters in the same vehicle, a Fram Ultra and a no name filter. The no name won, not by a little.
This is why it would be nice to see particle count tests from vehicles and not make up stories about Toyota wants more flow etc.. The flow is the same, oil pump not filter dependent. Yet the false idea will continue there is no doubt about it.


Here's the Fram TG (99% @ 20u rated) used on a motorcycle with shared wet clutch sump that had an ISO count cleaner than the same virgin oil used. So post up the one you keep referencing.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4107645/Honda_NC700X_Red_Line_10W30

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Ask Pablo if he has it but this (below quote) is on their website... I know from my experience where I had lots of noisy lifters with Hyundai filters and a bunch of other brands I tried I had 0 with the Amsoil EAO filter I used so I never went back. I equate this to more flow as Amsoil claims is the case with their filters.

Quote
Less Restriction:

Proper oil flow is essential to keeping engine parts lubricated at all times. AMSOIL
Ea Oil Filters’ synthetic fibers are smaller than the fibers used in traditional filters,
allowing Ea Oil Filters to provide lower restriction. During cold-temperature warmup
periods, an Ea Oil Filter allows the oil to flow through the filter more easily than
a typical cellulose filter does. Lower restriction decreases engine wear.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2192.pdf

Lower flow restriction actually means less delta-p and less of a chance to hit filter bypass with cold oil. As has been mentioned many times by many people, the only time a more restrictive oil filter would make a positive displacement oil pump cut back oil flow to the engine is if the filter caused the pump to hit pressure relief, which just doesn't really happen unless the filter is totally clogged up and you're using very think oil and rev the engine pretty high on cold starts. Jim Allen's sticky thread at the top of this forum has test data on the subject matter with more details.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by goodtimes
There was a Blackstone particle count test from someone here comparing two filters in the same vehicle, a Fram Ultra and a no name filter. The no name won, not by a little.
This is why it would be nice to see particle count tests from vehicles and not make up stories about Toyota wants more flow etc.. The flow is the same, oil pump not filter dependent. Yet the false idea will continue there is no doubt about it.


Here's the Fram TG (99% @ 20u rated) used on a motorcycle with shared wet clutch sump that had an ISO count cleaner than the same virgin oil used. So post up the one you keep referencing.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4107645/Honda_NC700X_Red_Line_10W30



You already know the reports I refer too, search for them yourself. You've seen them many times, bad memory, or selective memory? You even claimed they must be a mistake.. So you play some kind of games?
The test you show is one filter, comparing it to itself I guess, and means nothing.
The reply wasn't directed to you anyway.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by goodtimes
You already know the reports I refer too, search for them yourself. You've seen them many times, bad memory, or selective memory? You even claimed they must be a mistake.. So you play some kind of games?
The test you show is one filter, comparing it to itself I guess, and means nothing.
The reply wasn't directed to you anyway.


You always refer to it and make the claim, so you go find and post it up and back up your comments - onus is on you. It probably doesn't even exist. It doesn't matter if the particle count is only on one filter, it's still an ISO particle count that can stand alone ... it's an ISO cleanliness measurement that you can compare to any other ISO cleanliness measurement. Grasping at that Mr. Strawman.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Prove that it was the oil filter that did that for you. Toyota's engines are well built by nature. I doubt the filter had anything to do with it other than being an insurance policy. If you read what I wrote, I said I want the efficiency of filtering down to 20 microns for my own piece of mind. I also provided testing proof that I can find that shows Toyota's filter didn't fare well at 20 micron efficiency compared to competitors.

Where is YOUR proof that this isn't the case?

Whether an engine is well built or not isn't relevant here. A "well built" engine will wear just the same as one that is less well built, at least for the sake of this example. In the world of mass-produced engines like my Toyota and Honda engines they still use the same type of cast-iron cylinder liners and similar piston rings. They also use similar bearing materials. They all will wear if the oil is causing abrasive wear, Toyota doesn't use super-duper rings, liners or bearings.

We agree in doubting that the filter had anything to do with it. You are making my point.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by kschachn
A "well built" engine will wear just the same as one that is less well built, at least for the sake of this example. In the world of mass-produced engines like my Toyota and Honda engines they still use the same type of cast-iron cylinder liners and similar piston rings. They also use similar bearing materials. They all will wear if the oil is causing abrasive wear, Toyota doesn't use super-duper rings, liners or bearings.


What?! ... you mean Toytoas don't use some unobtanium steel and aluminum that doesn't wear as fast, and don't make any wear particles when they are running?

 

[StevieC]

There is a lot more to it than just Bearings and Rings. Ask GM for example and their cough cough timing chains, piston slap, turbos or Subaru about their problematic engines, or insert OE here, and the list goes on and on over the decades. "Built Well" refers to overall design which contributes to how much debris ends up in the oil for the filter to catch. A non issue for some a big issue for others. While I believe Toyota has tested and doesn't consider filtration necessary past what their filters are designed to I prefer to stand on the side of caution and choose a filter that catches as much as possible in the 20 micron and above range. If there were a filter out there that would catch more I would switch to that brand. I haven't seen anything out there that really gets below ~ 20 micron without affecting flow and without killing the wallet. (i.e. Bypass filtration)

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
I haven't seen anything out there that really gets below ~ 20 micron without affecting flow and without killing the wallet. (i.e. Bypass filtration)


Every oil filter gets "below 20 microns" ... it's a matter of how much they capture below 20 microns. 20 microns is kind of the standard size most filters makers use to rate the filter, unless the efficiency is bad, then they use 35 or 40 microns so they can bump up the efficiency % number to make it look better.

 

[StevieC]

You know what I meant.

 

[ZeeOSix]

And just because a filter is very efficient doesn't mean it flows badly or "affects flow" to the motor - that was a huge misconception with the PureOne filters (claimed to be 99.9% @ 20u), which was debunked many years ago. PD oil pumps, don't care about some flow restiction unless they go into pressure relief, and it takes a lot of restriction to cause that. The average oil filter only comprises about 1/15th of the total flow restriction of the entire oiling system - your rod and crank bearings are the true "restrictions".

 

[Bond]

I would like to see the test good times mentioned. Would like to know both sides of the story. If the more expensive fram ultra preforms poorer than some off brand economy filters, id like to know so I can be sure to not waste money on one again. If on the other hand its not true id like to know so I don't need to feel like a chump for buying into the hype about fram ultra.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Bond
I would like to see the test good times mentioned. Would like to know both sides of the story. If the more expensive fram ultra preforms poorer than some off brand economy filters, id like to know so I can be sure to not waste money on one again. If on the other hand its not true id like to know so I don't need to feel like a chump for buying into the hype about fram ultra.

Both sides of what story? The Fram Ultra performs exactly as their data says it performs, what hype are you "buying into" that makes you a chump?

You think their published filtration data is false?