Noack Vs Thickness (Consumption)

[MichaelDCRogers]

So comparing 0w40 oils with 5w40 oils, or any 0w or 5w oil for the matter, it would seem the 5w40, 5w(s) in general, aren't consumed or burned off as easily as 0w oils due to overall hths or thickness; but 0w oils might have superior base stocks and lower Noack ratings to compensate. I observed a 5w40 be consumed at roughly the same rate as a 0w40, Castrol Oe 5w40 and Edge 0w40 respectively.
What are your thoughts and what were your experiences?

 

[kschachn]

Oils with a lower winter rating are thinner?

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

Also consider shear rates for an interval...

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

As a "general" rule since I haven't seen many outliers or discussion of the topic, I have noticed that:
1. Within the same grade of oil (20 wt etc)
2. Higher VI generally reports higher NOACK.

Sure there are probably outliers. But for my level of interest and the amount that it actually matters in an engine (which is likely not much since nobody has really investigated/discussed this relationship from what I've seen), these two rules are simple enough to allow you to partake in either the blue pill or the red pill depending on your propensity for a specific primary color.

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

I also noted that in some Used oil analysis' that 5w40s or 5w(s) of lesser quality base stocks and higher noack ratings sheared to light 30 weights in European engines or any engine causing fuel dilution from direct injection and resultingly be consumed at a faster rate, surprisingly when compared to higher quality 0w european blend oils....

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by MichaelDCRogers
I also noted that in some Used oil analysis' that 5w40s or 5w(s) of lesser quality base stocks and higher noack ratings sheared to light 30 weights in European engines or any engine causing fuel dilution from direct injection and resultingly be consumed at a faster rate, surprisingly when compared to higher quality 0w european blend oils....

First off, how do you conclusively discern base stock composition from a UOA? And second, if you are using UOA produced by the most predominant UOA provider on this site then you cannot distinguish fuel dilution from actual mechanical shear, it is not possible. So be careful how much you are attributing to any base stock or any composition.

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

I rely off the oil-manufacturer data sheets, both the Tdss' Msds for each oil concerning base stocks and additive packs, Thank you. Although the values at the bottom of each UOA detail viscosity indexs after each sample taken from an interval, they aren't the most accurate or precise; but they do give a general idea. Also, I've reviewed a number of UOA from all over the web; and Especially the ones that have two intervals with two different oils listed on the same sheet.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MichaelDCRogers
I rely off the oil-manufacturer data sheets, both the Tdss' Msds for each oil concerning base stocks and additive packs, Thank you. Although the values at the bottom of each UOA detail viscosity indexs after each sample taken from an interval, they aren't the most accurate or precise; but they do give a general idea. Also, I've reviewed a number of UOA from all over the web; and Especially the ones that have two intervals with two different oils listed on the same sheet.

For larger spread between two numbers you need better base stock if certain specifications are being achieved (MB229.5 for example). But the question is what manufacturer is trying to achieve, so some oils will have better stock than others.
As for you reviewing UOA, that is flawed methodology, and I am being generous.

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

My mistake.
Why do people rely on UOAs to conclude an oil is bad if it shows a lower viscosity index at the end of its interval; "it sheared excessively."
Also, how much of your 0w40 Castrol is consumed vs other oils including the dealership castrol?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MichaelDCRogers
My mistake.
Why do people rely on UOAs to conclude an oil is bad if it shows a lower viscosity index at the end of its interval; "it sheared excessively."
Also, how much of your 0w40 Castrol is consumed vs other oils including the dealership castrol?

A. People rely on UOA for various reasons. Some metals will show problem with certain part that might be known to be problematic. TBN retention, TAN, fuel dilution issues etc.
B. My car does not use Castrol Edge 0W40 period. It does not use Castrol Edge 0W30 also. It did not use Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30. It did not use Mobil1 0W40.
I used for example Castrol Syntec 5W40 in passat 1.8T and it did not use it, but it did develop ticking noise at 4,000 miles exactly. With other oils I did not have that issue.
Not sure why you assuming that vehicle has to use oil or that it is oil issue? It could be numerous other reasons.

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

You recommended Edge 0w40 before,? But if you've ever used a 0w oil with a quality base stock did it to burn off in a high mileage application?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by MichaelDCRogers
You recommended Edge 0w40 before,? But if you've ever used a 0w oil with a quality base stock did it to burn off in a high mileage application?

I use Castrol or Mobil 1 0W-40 in my old Sienna, and at over 425,000 miles it does not "burn off" any more or any less than any other oil of that grade.

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

Good cars, Toyotas. Family member's Scion TC has 267,000 miles on it running convention or semi synthetic 5w30 and it burns only 1/8th a quart, checked at the end of an interval; something thinner then alot of Euro blend 5w30 or 0w oils.

 

[OilReport99]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by MichaelDCRogers
You recommended Edge 0w40 before,? But if you've ever used a 0w oil with a quality base stock did it to burn off in a high mileage application?

I use Castrol or Mobil 1 0W-40 in my old Sienna, and at over 425,000 miles it does not "burn off" any more or any less than any other oil of that grade.

Just out of curiosity...why a Euro oil for the Sienna?

Thanks

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

Supposed to state conventional. Spell-check. Euro blends are formulated to be a little thicker under better emissions standards concerning additive packs or lower noack ratings. They might stay in grade better because of their bases or unique additives. They're good makeshift high-mileage oils?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MichaelDCRogers
You recommended Edge 0w40 before,? But if you've ever used a 0w oil with a quality base stock did it to burn off in a high mileage application?

I did not use Cstrol 0W40 at anything over 116,000 miles. That is mileage at which I traded in my VW CC, and did not sue any oil. I used in BMW 525d E61 Castrol 5W30 ACEA C3 and that car made 478k km in Europe, and did not use any oil. 0W40 oils are not that common and first one on the market as in 1997 Valvoline Synpower specific to European market. I used that one (among other oils) in OPEL Vectra 2.0 16V and did not use any. Car made it around 300,000 km before I sold it. The oil that car sued like crazy was Liqui Moly 5W40. It used like 1ltr per 1,000km.

 

[MichaelDCRogers]

Interesting. Thank you for your input....I had a similar occurrence with my Mkv GLI Autobahn, that got totaled, with the old EA113 Bpy belt-drive engine, except it was 0w30 mixed in with 5w40 Edge after I heard bearing noise from the turbo on the 5w40 alone. Not only did the excessive noise disappear, after adding it in, the oil seemingly burned off at a lesser rate, 113,000 miles? I also have tried 0w30 entirely in either my MkVI Gli or the MkV and the burnoff seemed to be the same if not slower compared to Pennzoil Ultra 5w40.. 3.88 Hths.
Old dark grey bottle I could purchase in quarts from a Tuffy... Its Noack was around 6 percent...and had a PAO/GTL blend

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MichaelDCRogers
Interesting. Thank you for your input....I had a similar occurrence with my Mkv GLI Autobahn, that got totaled, with the old EA113 Bpy belt-drive engine, except it was 0w30 mixed in with 5w40 Edge after I heard bearing noise from the turbo on the 5w40 alone. Not only did the excessive noise disappear, after adding it in, the oil seemingly burned off at a lesser rate, 113,000 miles? I also have tried 0w30 entirely in either my MkVI Gli or the MkV and the burnoff seemed to be the same if not slower compared to Pennzoil Ultra 5w40.. 3.88 Hths.
Old dark grey bottle I could purchase in quarts from a Tuffy... Its Noack was around 6 percent...and had a PAO/GTL blend

Grey bottle had GTL very short period of time. That Ultra bottle was Group III mostly, before switch to GTL. I am not sure actually GTL was ever in that Grey bottle. Pennzoil is always confusing with PDS. I saw that PDS with HTHS of .88 and then they watered it down to 3.6cp.
But HTHS is not indication of usage. EA113 had fuel dilution issues too. That could contribute to loss.