edyvw
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After All Season tires, biggest scam in automotive world.
Nitrogen versus Air - 5th gear
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
After All Season tires, biggest scam in automotive world.
Doesn't seem to be much of a scam here, at least from the end-consumer point of view, since its either very cheap, or free. The essense of a scam is that you induce people to part with money for something.
If you took a "cheap or free heroin" proposal to Don Vito Corleone, would he think you were a serious man, worthy of respect?
It seems to be more marketing support for selling tyres.
After All Season tires, biggest scam in automotive world.
Doesn't seem to be much of a scam here, at least from the end-consumer point of view, since its either very cheap, or free. The essense of a scam is that you induce people to part with money for something.
If you took a "cheap or free heroin" proposal to Don Vito Corleone, would he think you were a serious man, worthy of respect?
It seems to be more marketing support for selling tyres.
If pressure fluctuation in a tyre was a significant problem, and it probably is in F1, it could be solved by active tyre pressure management. I believe they have this on Paris-Dakkar racers for lowering pressure to cross sand, so at least part of the tech may already exist.
They probably don't do this because the rules (and the tyres) are configured to make tyre management a big part of the game.
With active tyre pressure management, liquid in a tyre wouldn't be a problem (might even be a benefit, see above) and you could introduce active oxygen scavenging.
Of course its likely you dont need this on a road car. OTOH I don't need TPMS, but if I buy a new ish car I'll have to have it.
They probably don't do this because the rules (and the tyres) are configured to make tyre management a big part of the game.
With active tyre pressure management, liquid in a tyre wouldn't be a problem (might even be a benefit, see above) and you could introduce active oxygen scavenging.
Of course its likely you dont need this on a road car. OTOH I don't need TPMS, but if I buy a new ish car I'll have to have it.
Originally Posted By: Traction
I guess nitrogen charged shocks must be a scam too, along with anything else that doesn't need anything other than wet compressed air under pressure. How is that better?
Different application, different requirements...no bogus or inflated claims.
Sorry, wrong strawman.
I guess nitrogen charged shocks must be a scam too, along with anything else that doesn't need anything other than wet compressed air under pressure. How is that better?
Different application, different requirements...no bogus or inflated claims.
Sorry, wrong strawman.
Originally Posted By: Traction
I guess nitrogen charged shocks must be a scam too, along with anything else that doesn't need anything other than wet compressed air under pressure. How is that better?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the pressure in nitrogen shocks is over 100 psi.
Besides, I don't think anyone is saying nitrogen isn't better - just not that much better that it has significant value used in street tires.
I guess nitrogen charged shocks must be a scam too, along with anything else that doesn't need anything other than wet compressed air under pressure. How is that better?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the pressure in nitrogen shocks is over 100 psi.
Besides, I don't think anyone is saying nitrogen isn't better - just not that much better that it has significant value used in street tires.
Originally Posted by nap
How about filling them with carbon dioxide and getting carbon credits for sequestrating it?
I've often wondered why that isn't a thing, safety issue?
Anyway...
Co2 is one of the larger gas molecules you would think it would exit the rubber the slowest?
It might expand and contract more with temperature, should stop oxidation (though I suppose it isn't a non reactive molecule either)
While we're at it there are noble gasses as well.
How about filling them with carbon dioxide and getting carbon credits for sequestrating it?
I've often wondered why that isn't a thing, safety issue?
Anyway...
Co2 is one of the larger gas molecules you would think it would exit the rubber the slowest?
It might expand and contract more with temperature, should stop oxidation (though I suppose it isn't a non reactive molecule either)
While we're at it there are noble gasses as well.
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by nap
How about filling them with carbon dioxide and getting carbon credits for sequestrating it?
I've often wondered why that isn't a thing, safety issue?
Anyway...
Co2 is one of the larger gas molecules you would think it would exit the rubber the slowest?
It might expand and contract more with temperature, should stop oxidation (though I suppose it isn't a non reactive molecule either)
While we're at it there are noble gasses as well.
From what I read, even though the co2 molecule is bigger, it is 99.3% more permeable through butyl rubber than N2, plus it is more expensive. So it would not be a great idea.
Originally Posted by nap
How about filling them with carbon dioxide and getting carbon credits for sequestrating it?
I've often wondered why that isn't a thing, safety issue?
Anyway...
Co2 is one of the larger gas molecules you would think it would exit the rubber the slowest?
It might expand and contract more with temperature, should stop oxidation (though I suppose it isn't a non reactive molecule either)
While we're at it there are noble gasses as well.
From what I read, even though the co2 molecule is bigger, it is 99.3% more permeable through butyl rubber than N2, plus it is more expensive. So it would not be a great idea.
Gotta buck the prevailing sentiment here. Since the tire shop I buy my tires from (Dunn Tire) started filling with nitrogen I noticed I didn't have to occasionally top off tires as I did in the past with compressed air. No additional charge for either the initial install nor for any subsequent fills. I do take the vehicle in when cold weather hits.
So there is some advantage. However, if a shop charges for nitrogen I don't think it would be something I'd pay for.
Just my own observation.
So there is some advantage. However, if a shop charges for nitrogen I don't think it would be something I'd pay for.
Just my own observation.
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Originally Posted by CapriRacer
Originally Posted by Traction
I guess nitrogen charged shocks must be a scam too, along with anything else that doesn't need anything other than wet compressed air under pressure. How is that better?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the pressure in nitrogen shocks is over 100 psi.
Besides, I don't think anyone is saying nitrogen isn't better - just not that much better that it has significant value used in street tires.
Or worth the safety risk if not stored in the correct area …
Originally Posted by Traction
I guess nitrogen charged shocks must be a scam too, along with anything else that doesn't need anything other than wet compressed air under pressure. How is that better?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the pressure in nitrogen shocks is over 100 psi.
Besides, I don't think anyone is saying nitrogen isn't better - just not that much better that it has significant value used in street tires.
Or worth the safety risk if not stored in the correct area …
Originally Posted by Traction
I've been putting nitrogen in thousands of tires for over 13 years for free. Sure compressed air will work, but other than availability, how is it better? It's not, and all kinds of things are nitrogen charged, like shocks, lift struts, fire extinguishers, etc. Yes the O2, and moisture will eventually equalize in a tire, but it takes a long time, so it helps to start with as little as possible. It really helps with bead seat corrosion especially in the winter, and it leaks down slower too. I have a refrigerated air dryer on my air compressor, but I never fill tires with just that. Dry nitrogen always, with a dew point of like -60 degrees, for free. Every time you top off your tires, you replenish the O2, and water. Oxygen, and moisture are of no benefit for tires, or wheels period.
What about the moisture and O2 on the outside of the tires and wheels?
I've been putting nitrogen in thousands of tires for over 13 years for free. Sure compressed air will work, but other than availability, how is it better? It's not, and all kinds of things are nitrogen charged, like shocks, lift struts, fire extinguishers, etc. Yes the O2, and moisture will eventually equalize in a tire, but it takes a long time, so it helps to start with as little as possible. It really helps with bead seat corrosion especially in the winter, and it leaks down slower too. I have a refrigerated air dryer on my air compressor, but I never fill tires with just that. Dry nitrogen always, with a dew point of like -60 degrees, for free. Every time you top off your tires, you replenish the O2, and water. Oxygen, and moisture are of no benefit for tires, or wheels period.
What about the moisture and O2 on the outside of the tires and wheels?
Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by Traction
I've been putting nitrogen in thousands of tires for over 13 years for free. Sure compressed air will work, but other than availability, how is it better? It's not, and all kinds of things are nitrogen charged, like shocks, lift struts, fire extinguishers, etc. Yes the O2, and moisture will eventually equalize in a tire, but it takes a long time, so it helps to start with as little as possible. It really helps with bead seat corrosion especially in the winter, and it leaks down slower too. I have a refrigerated air dryer on my air compressor, but I never fill tires with just that. Dry nitrogen always, with a dew point of like -60 degrees, for free. Every time you top off your tires, you replenish the O2, and water. Oxygen, and moisture are of no benefit for tires, or wheels period.
What about the moisture and O2 on the outside of the tires and wheels?
It eventually equalizes, but the point is to keep most of it out if possible, not start with O2, and water that has to squeeze back through to get out.
Originally Posted by Traction
I've been putting nitrogen in thousands of tires for over 13 years for free. Sure compressed air will work, but other than availability, how is it better? It's not, and all kinds of things are nitrogen charged, like shocks, lift struts, fire extinguishers, etc. Yes the O2, and moisture will eventually equalize in a tire, but it takes a long time, so it helps to start with as little as possible. It really helps with bead seat corrosion especially in the winter, and it leaks down slower too. I have a refrigerated air dryer on my air compressor, but I never fill tires with just that. Dry nitrogen always, with a dew point of like -60 degrees, for free. Every time you top off your tires, you replenish the O2, and water. Oxygen, and moisture are of no benefit for tires, or wheels period.
What about the moisture and O2 on the outside of the tires and wheels?
It eventually equalizes, but the point is to keep most of it out if possible, not start with O2, and water that has to squeeze back through to get out.
How many shops are using soapy water as mounting lube?
Originally Posted by Garak
How many shops are using soapy water as mounting lube?
LOL...have asked that before..funnily, never ever get a reply.
Tyre holds around 10 litres of air...lets say 40 in total at pressure. If it went in saturated at 20C, it would have carried in 0.67 grammes(or millilitres) of water....that's 1/8 of a teaspoon.
How much of that tyre gunk is slathered in on seating the bead
How many shops are using soapy water as mounting lube?
LOL...have asked that before..funnily, never ever get a reply.
Tyre holds around 10 litres of air...lets say 40 in total at pressure. If it went in saturated at 20C, it would have carried in 0.67 grammes(or millilitres) of water....that's 1/8 of a teaspoon.
How much of that tyre gunk is slathered in on seating the bead
When I was mounting tires myself for the taxis, it was plenty. I know there's specialised lube for it (which we never bought) but I have no idea as to its chemistry. Ours was a bunch of water with a whack of dish detergent, slathered on as needed. All the dry air, dry nitrogen, or dry argon, for that matter, would have done little to reduce moisture. Now, I get that tubed tires and tubeless are not the same thing, but when people on the farm are using calcium chloride and water for ballast, they're not going to be spooked by a soap solution for mounting tires, much less water vapour in the compressed fill.
Some of you modern people with TPMS could easily do an experiment.
Just before you're replacing your tyres, remove a tyre valve, inject say 0.1 mls of water to start, replace valve, refill tyre, then do your standard commute. Monitor the pressure at intervals.
Repeat with gradually increased amounts of water until you get an effect.
Report.
Just before you're replacing your tyres, remove a tyre valve, inject say 0.1 mls of water to start, replace valve, refill tyre, then do your standard commute. Monitor the pressure at intervals.
Repeat with gradually increased amounts of water until you get an effect.
Report.
My TPMS works in 4kPa increments (0.7psi), so not enough sensitivity to measure what equates to actually nearly nothing unfortunately.
There's 8-12 kPa variance (indicated, not done the error analysis) depending on the direction that the sun is on the way the car is parked. All even out the same after 25km at highway speeds, although again an indicated increase over the static pressures.
Assuming that there's the same number of moles of gas/vapor in the tyre, there's no difference. If there's free water, then you have to do the vapor pressure temperature thing, with the molar fraction of water vapor changing in the gas...and there's nearly so close to no difference that it makes no difference.
There's 8-12 kPa variance (indicated, not done the error analysis) depending on the direction that the sun is on the way the car is parked. All even out the same after 25km at highway speeds, although again an indicated increase over the static pressures.
Assuming that there's the same number of moles of gas/vapor in the tyre, there's no difference. If there's free water, then you have to do the vapor pressure temperature thing, with the molar fraction of water vapor changing in the gas...and there's nearly so close to no difference that it makes no difference.
Originally Posted by Shannow
If there's free water, then you have to do the vapor pressure temperature thing, with the molar fraction of water vapor changing in the gas.
Don't think you do.
I think you just have to read the pressure guage.
The water will do the vapor pressure temperature thing a lot more confidently than I would.
If there's free water, then you have to do the vapor pressure temperature thing, with the molar fraction of water vapor changing in the gas.
Don't think you do.
I think you just have to read the pressure guage.
The water will do the vapor pressure temperature thing a lot more confidently than I would.
Originally Posted by Ducked
Originally Posted by Shannow
If there's free water, then you have to do the vapor pressure temperature thing, with the molar fraction of water vapor changing in the gas.
Don't think you do.
I think you just have to read the pressure guage.
The water will do the vapor pressure temperature thing a lot more confidently than I would.
Do the math/science/steam tables first...then tell me that I would see it on my TPMS in 4kPa increments.
Your challenge, I explained the limits of measurement...and that the changes were next to zero...
Originally Posted by Shannow
If there's free water, then you have to do the vapor pressure temperature thing, with the molar fraction of water vapor changing in the gas.
Don't think you do.
I think you just have to read the pressure guage.
The water will do the vapor pressure temperature thing a lot more confidently than I would.
Do the math/science/steam tables first...then tell me that I would see it on my TPMS in 4kPa increments.
Your challenge, I explained the limits of measurement...and that the changes were next to zero...
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