New All-Weather tire from Michelin

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Originally Posted By: SubLGT
It is called the CrossClimate, and Michelin says
"………..With official approval for winter use, the MICHELIN CrossClimate tire is a combination of summer and winter tire technologies, incompatible until now…."

It has an aggressive, directional tread design, and is intended for the European market. They are really making a big deal out of this, calling it a "turning point in history" as if they had never heard of the Nokian WR-G3.
crackmeup2.gif


http://www.michelin.com/eng/Home-Micheli...oint-in-history


Or Vredestein Quatrac or Kumho KH-21... Plus Nokians , Hankooks ... etc. Michelin is late to the party....!

Realistically, these tires are what SHOULD be labeled all-seasons... the rest should be 3 seasons...

Of note, however, is the earning of the mountain / snowflake designation. These all-weather type tires, and some all-terrain truck tires... pass the test requirements, but just barely in many cases. Where as a premium studless winter tire (think Blizzak WS-80 etc...) often blows the test out of the water so to speak...

So, both tires carry the mountain / snowflake symbol, but there is a large difference in winter performance. Too much so, in the opinion of some industry regulators ... who are pushing for tougher standards to earn that winter designation.
 
Originally Posted By: EdwardC
I remember reading about other all season tires that have the mountain-snowflake symbol: http://blog.tirerack.com/blog/hunters-ra...rvice-standards


Also, based on what I understand from capriracer's posts, the mountain snow flake symbol is a self imposed logo. Tests are done to compare the traction in a controlled environment compared to a reference tire, and if it has more traction, it can have the symbol.

That doesn't mean that there aren't some all-season tires that could meet that traction spec, just that they manufacturer didn't put it on.

My thoughts are that maybe they need to update the specs to ensure that snow tires with the mountain snow flake are indeed better for snow, ideally better than any all season.

I believe the all season and all weather labels are not regulated, just marketing terms.


Then we should probably look at countries that mandate the use of winter tires and see how consumers there make sure the tires they put on are officlally sanctioned and approved winter tires.

hotwheels
 
If the tire makes it to the US I would be happy since Michelin has deeper discounts then Nokian WR G3 I am interested in for my Subaru limping about on 3/32" Yoko tires(ice skates!).
 
Originally Posted By: hotwheels

You are holding out on us by not telling us how that tire performs.

hotwheels


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2806224/Searchpage/1/Main/186061/Words/Hankook+4S/Search/true/Re:_Post_your_winter_rubber!#Post2806224

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2849754/Searchpage/1/Main/188617/Words/Hankook+4S/Search/true/Re:_Tires_and_snow#Post2849754

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2874856/Searchpage/1/Main/189900/Words/Hankook+4S/Search/true/Re:_Snow_in_Alabama#Post2874856

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3223310/Searchpage/1/Main/209200/Words/Hankook+4S/Search/true/Re:_Firestone_Winterforce_for_#Post3223310

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3468313/Searchpage/1/Main/222488/Words/Hankook+4S/Search/true/Re:_A/S_tire_suggestions_for_S#Post3468313

Q.
 
Originally Posted By: geeman789
SubLGT said:
It is called the CrossClimate, and Michelin says
"………..With official approval for winter use, the MICHELIN CrossClimate tire is a combination of summer and winter tire technologies, incompatible until now…."

It has an aggressive, directional tread design, and is intended for the European market. They are really making a big deal out of this, calling it a "turning point in history" as if they had never heard of the Nokian WR-G3.
crackmeup2.gif





Also before Michelin:
Goodyear Vector 5+ & Vector 4Seasons (&SUV)
Falken Euroall Season AS200
Uniroyal All-season Expert


Originally Posted By: hotwheels

I beg your pardon. I looked at the Hankook website where they call it an A/S tire and I did not see any mention of RAC approval anywhere. I'll take your word for it that it's on the tire. I did not intend to missguide or to offend anyone.

You are holding out on us by not telling us how that tire performs.

hotwheels

It's not on Hankook's USA website because it's not for the US market. It's on Canadian Tire's website, as they are the sole distributor for Canada
http://tires.canadiantire.ca/en/tires/all-season-tires/product/0041732P/hankook-optimo-4s/
Quote:

Then we should probably look at countries that mandate the use of winter tires and see how consumers there make sure the tires they put on are officlally sanctioned and approved winter tires.

hotwheels

The Quebec snow tire law is plastered all over the news. The cops can inspect for it, as a secondary offense, as well as if you're involved in a car accident. Aside from the stiff fine, it also gets reported to your insurance company.... and if you're in an accident, the insurance company can decide not to pay out.
Click to expand...
 
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Originally Posted By: rjundi
If the tire makes it to the US I would be happy since Michelin has deeper discounts then Nokian WR G3 I am interested in for my Subaru limping about on 3/32" Yoko tires(ice skates!).


Discount Tire has been offering big discounts on Nokian winter tires, based on reports here at BITOG, and at NASIOC.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: hotwheels
The Nokian WR-G3 is per Nokian an all-weather tire. Hankook Optimo 4S, Goodyear Assurance TripleTred, Pirelli P7 and BFG A/T are all all-season tires. I have yet to see an A/S tire that has winter tire approval. A/S tires have M+S printed on them, true winter tires sport a mountain logo with a snowflake in it.

With an increasing number of European countries requiring the use of winter tires instead of allowing all-season tires during snowy and icy conditions, I am not surprised at Michelin developing a product that fulfills the winter requirements while offering year-round use.

The Cross Climate has winter approval and is thus rated as a snow tire, while apparently also meeting the performane requirements of a summer tire. Whether and under which conditions it's really superior to an all-season or equal to a conventional winter and summer tire remains to be seen.

hotwheels



The BFG AT DOES have the snowflake on it.


Which makes sense - it's an A/T tire, not an all season. A/T tires generally do really, really well in slippery conditions.

The Discoverer AT/3 - which does not have the snowflake on it does very well in slippery conditions.
 
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Michelin-CrossClimate-launched-is-this-a-game-changer.htm

"………..All season tyres offer approximately 85% of a summer tyres performance in the dry and wet, and 85% of a winter tyres performance the snow which gives them a slightly better operating window for the UK than a full winter. While this balance of qualities is the best compromise currently available, the ideal tyre for the UK tyre market is a tyre which offers 99% of a summer tyres performance in the dry and wet, yet still offers the ability to perform in snow and ice for those few days a year we see adverse conditions. The good news is, Michelin claim to have done exactly that with the new Michelin CrossClimate……………."
 
Some interesting stats:

"…………….[Michelin] says a 2014 GfK survey of European consumers shows:

- 65% of European motorists use summer tires all year long. The figure is lower in Germany – 20% - where regulations require special equipment for winter conditions. In France, where there are no laws governing tire use, 76% of motorists rely on summer tires yearround.

- Between 3% (in Germany) and 7% (in France) use winter tires all year long.

- 63% of customers in the United Kingdom and 47% in France mistakenly think they have all-season tires on their vehicles. They’re actually driving on summer tires……………………"

http://www.moderntiredealer.com/news/sto...ummer-tire.aspx
 
I've had no issues running some X-ice's year round on the Tracker for a year now. I should rotate them on a nice day and take some depth measurements, but the wear looks even and not excessive. For a low annual mileage, normally driven vehicle in a 4 season climate, I don't think running modern ice tires is a bad idea. Even better would be a compound skewed slightly more toward longevity which may give 95% of the ice performance, but with a significantly longer life.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
………...For a low annual mileage, normally driven vehicle in a 4 season climate, I don't think running modern ice tires is a bad idea. …….


They will have very poor performance in warm weather on dry or wet pavement, under heavy braking or during emergency maneuvers. In an emergency situation, especially on a wet road, you will regret having them on your car.
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
………...For a low annual mileage, normally driven vehicle in a 4 season climate, I don't think running modern ice tires is a bad idea. …….


They will have very poor performance in warm weather on dry or wet pavement, under heavy braking or during emergency maneuvers. In an emergency situation, especially on a wet road, you will regret having them on your car.

Compared to what? Michelin Pilot's? I think the average all season is not that much better at all in my experience in the dry, and far worse in the wet.
I actually had a van pull out in front of me this weekend on wet 5C pavement, and the X-ice's gripped astonishingly well even in a full lock up stop from about 45mph.
I agree that studdable snow tires are not great in the wet, even in the summer, but the Yokohama IG52c's on the Focus and the Xice seem to do quite well on wet pavement.
I'm sure I could destroy them on a warm day driving hard on a track, but for the odd hard corner or accident avoidance maneuver, they are fine.
 
Originally Posted By: krzyss
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=193&cid=C33136040

IceGuard needing 149ft to stop from 50mph on the wet, 20ft more than WS80, is not "quite well".

Krzys

Well in my comparison to "round and black" all season tires, they do perform "quite well" in the wet. I think the biggest difference is that the static(rolling) and kinetic(sliding) friction of the ice tires is more equal than an all season tire. This makes the tire more forgiving at the limit and easier to recover from a slide.

The idea behind running an ice tire year round is that instead of buying 2 cheap sets of tires that both perform OK until they age out, is you get one tire that does great in the most challenging conditions(winter) and is acceptable or good in the least challenging conditions(summer). On a clear dry warm day, the minor differences in performance between tires are tiny part of avoiding an accident. The driver anticipating and recognizing what is occurring is the biggest factor. Add wet roads, then the differences in tires starts to become a bigger factor, but I've found that ice tires still seem to out perform "round and black" all seasons by quite a bit in the wet.

Tire rack is a bit annoying as they do a lot of relative subjective testing of cheaper all season tires, but no quantitative tests so its hard to compare them to other tires directly.

In any case, I'm not running the yoko's year round, as I have a set of all season round and blacks to kill off. The Tracker is running Xice's year round as I didn't want to drop $1000+ on two sets of tires when I know I'm not going to be running it long enough to wear those out. The new old stock Xices came up for $200 installed so I thought I might as well run them year round as I still may not wear them out before I get rid of the Tracker. So far, they seem to be the best all round tire I've had on the Tracker which was a pleasant surprise.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
………...For a low annual mileage, normally driven vehicle in a 4 season climate, I don't think running modern ice tires is a bad idea. …….


They will have very poor performance in warm weather on dry or wet pavement, under heavy braking or during emergency maneuvers. In an emergency situation, especially on a wet road, you will regret having them on your car.

Compared to what? Michelin Pilot's? …………….


Compared to performance winters. Compared to all season tires. Compared to summer tires.
The inverse relationship between wet traction and ice traction is a well established fact. With current technology, you can't have both excellent ice traction and excellent wet traction in the same tire. Maybe 10-20 years from now, there will be a materials breakthrough that allows both attributes in one tire, but for now it does not exist.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
……….but I've found that ice tires still seem to out perform "round and black" all seasons by quite a bit in the wet………...


There is a lot of test data out there that refutes the above statement. As one example, in 2012 Consumers Report tested 78 different tire models:

16 different winter tires, studless and performance, including Xi2 and Xi3
20 different T rated all-season tires
20 different H rated all-season tires
22 different v rated all-season tires

In this test, neither the Xi2 or the Xi3 (or any of the studless winters) equaled, let alone surpassed, the warm weather wet/dry braking performance of any of the 62 different all-season tires.

In this test, neither the Xi2 or the Xi3 equaled, let alone surpassed, the hydroplaning performance of the 62 different all-season tires.

One of the performance winters, a Pirelli Sottozero, could match the wet performance of some of the all-seasons, but predictably, its ice traction was only "fair"
 
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