Heck, you coulda been a fed agent calling. Dude! lol
must lie to buy Kreen
- Thread starter GMorg
- Start date
- Status
The operator answered what her corporate policy read. Good job on her.
My Xmas lights have a tag on them saying they have something known to the state of california to give you health problems and you should wash your hands after handling them and before eating. Thankfully I don't live there and it's not a problem.
I know someone who lives in CA and wanted a tiffany style lamp but they wouldn't ship there because of the lead solder holding the colored glass together. (or the lead in the glass?) So they drop shipped to an out of state friend who shipped the contraband back.
My Xmas lights have a tag on them saying they have something known to the state of california to give you health problems and you should wash your hands after handling them and before eating. Thankfully I don't live there and it's not a problem.
I know someone who lives in CA and wanted a tiffany style lamp but they wouldn't ship there because of the lead solder holding the colored glass together. (or the lead in the glass?) So they drop shipped to an out of state friend who shipped the contraband back.
LeakySeals wrote: "After dragging Kano through the mud did you buy anything?"
I don't understand the origin of this comment. At no point have I attempted to drag anyone through the mud.
I have to function on my word. I do not easily accept the idea that it is OK to misrepresent oneself. If the package had a warning, I would ignore it. For me, ignoring tags on a product is very different from attesting to something that is not true. (I suppose ethical behavior is in the eye of the beholder.) However, the system that is in place requires me to agree to terms that do not apply to me.
So the answer to answer LeakySeals' direct question is "no". Since I am not going to lie to obtain this product, there doesn't appear to be a way for me give them any of my business.
I am also not going to buy oil for one car so that have receipts for a different car's warranty. I received this advice from the ethical perspective of another fine BITOG member. I hope that my comments have not exceeded my welcome, but promotion of less than the truth is offensive - without regard to its practicality.
I don't understand the origin of this comment. At no point have I attempted to drag anyone through the mud.
I have to function on my word. I do not easily accept the idea that it is OK to misrepresent oneself. If the package had a warning, I would ignore it. For me, ignoring tags on a product is very different from attesting to something that is not true. (I suppose ethical behavior is in the eye of the beholder.) However, the system that is in place requires me to agree to terms that do not apply to me.
So the answer to answer LeakySeals' direct question is "no". Since I am not going to lie to obtain this product, there doesn't appear to be a way for me give them any of my business.
I am also not going to buy oil for one car so that have receipts for a different car's warranty. I received this advice from the ethical perspective of another fine BITOG member. I hope that my comments have not exceeded my welcome, but promotion of less than the truth is offensive - without regard to its practicality.
So don't buy any, simple as that.
All this carry on about ethics in this case is just that pure nonsense IMHO, but to each their own.
All this carry on about ethics in this case is just that pure nonsense IMHO, but to each their own.
Originally Posted By: Trav
So don't buy any, simple as that.
All this carry on about ethics in this case is just that pure nonsense IMHO, but to each their own.
+1 As long as we're discussing ethics, how about paying for positive testimony to generate sales? Or making false claims? It happens all the time. I look at like you do Paul, don't buy the product if you feel it violates your ethics.
So don't buy any, simple as that.
All this carry on about ethics in this case is just that pure nonsense IMHO, but to each their own.
+1 As long as we're discussing ethics, how about paying for positive testimony to generate sales? Or making false claims? It happens all the time. I look at like you do Paul, don't buy the product if you feel it violates your ethics.
Trav wrote: "So don't buy any, simple as that."
demarpaint wrote:"don't buy the product if you feel it violates your ethics."
Thus far that has been my strategy. However, my original question asked how does anyone buy this stuff without a lie. As far as I can tell, I haven't seen anyone post that they have a strategy to that does not involve some sort of ignoring the agreement.
As for demarpaint's other points, I agree. It seems that most of Madison Avenue (advertising district) is comfortable with distortions of the truth as long as they make money for their clients/themselves. If it benefits them, then it is OK. As a generally rule, that is the justification for all distortions of the truth. All of them.
demarpaint wrote:"don't buy the product if you feel it violates your ethics."
Thus far that has been my strategy. However, my original question asked how does anyone buy this stuff without a lie. As far as I can tell, I haven't seen anyone post that they have a strategy to that does not involve some sort of ignoring the agreement.
As for demarpaint's other points, I agree. It seems that most of Madison Avenue (advertising district) is comfortable with distortions of the truth as long as they make money for their clients/themselves. If it benefits them, then it is OK. As a generally rule, that is the justification for all distortions of the truth. All of them.
I wasn't referring to Madison Ave. advertising district. We've had sponsors that have come and gone that distorted the truth to sell product here. Heck one comes to mind that stooped down low enough to recruit a few members to help with their cause. Then when respected members who bought into the hype posted less than stellar results they were called liars, or told they never bought the product. To me that's a real violation of ethics.
I'm not seeing the big deal with buying Kreen. Maybe they'll modify their statement on the website as a result of this thread, making it a little easier to buy for those who don't have a business. I have no problems handling chemicals. As I mentioned before I can buy more dangerous chemicals in my local paint store, or Home Depot for that matter. But once again if buying Kreen makes someone uncomfortable or they feel they're violating some code of ethics, then they shouldn't buy it.
I can say without a doubt that Kreen works as advertised, and if used with a tiny amount of common sense it is perfectly safe to use. JMO
I'm not seeing the big deal with buying Kreen. Maybe they'll modify their statement on the website as a result of this thread, making it a little easier to buy for those who don't have a business. I have no problems handling chemicals. As I mentioned before I can buy more dangerous chemicals in my local paint store, or Home Depot for that matter. But once again if buying Kreen makes someone uncomfortable or they feel they're violating some code of ethics, then they shouldn't buy it.
I can say without a doubt that Kreen works as advertised, and if used with a tiny amount of common sense it is perfectly safe to use. JMO
demarpaint, I agree with your point of view. I am just extending it to all cases where people plan (or are paid) to distort the truth for gain (commercial or personal). I also agree that most solvents, most chemicals in fact, can be handled very safely without some sort of advanced degree. I grant that most chemicals can also be mishandled - even common nearly benign chemicals.
I haven't bought yet but I have a business, so ill be buying it without lying..... there's a different point of view.... as far as your moral obligation to not lie, can you find a fellow business owner that will let you pay him and order it through his business, just an alternative thought for what its worth.
Originally Posted By: Dupree
I haven't bought yet but I have a business, so ill be buying it without lying..... there's a different point of view.... as far as your moral obligation to not lie, can you find a fellow business owner that will let you pay him and order it through his business, just an alternative thought for what its worth.
That's a good idea, but is it ethical? LOL I didn't lie to buy Kreen either. I have a business, and it was for use in business vehicles.
Here's what I really like about Kreen and MMO for that matter. Kreen is taking some heat now, and MMO gets slammed by a few people any chance they get. You've never seen a person from Turtle Wax, or Kano Labs here trying to defend the products, or attack those members slamming the products. I respect that.
.
I haven't bought yet but I have a business, so ill be buying it without lying..... there's a different point of view.... as far as your moral obligation to not lie, can you find a fellow business owner that will let you pay him and order it through his business, just an alternative thought for what its worth.
That's a good idea, but is it ethical? LOL I didn't lie to buy Kreen either. I have a business, and it was for use in business vehicles.
Here's what I really like about Kreen and MMO for that matter. Kreen is taking some heat now, and MMO gets slammed by a few people any chance they get. You've never seen a person from Turtle Wax, or Kano Labs here trying to defend the products, or attack those members slamming the products. I respect that.
.
Quote:
Kreen is taking some heat now
I disagree. The product cannot be challenged because it works as advertised, so we start some sort of non existent ethics fiasco.
Its like claiming the local auto body supplier is unethical because he will you a pint of paint that has "not intended for retail sale, for professional use only" and you are DIY. These are CYA statements nothing more.
What i don't understand is why even bother starting a thread like this? If someone thinks its unethical then for Pete's sake just don't buy it.
Is there an ulterior motive? Question not an accusation.
Kreen is taking some heat now
I disagree. The product cannot be challenged because it works as advertised, so we start some sort of non existent ethics fiasco.
Its like claiming the local auto body supplier is unethical because he will you a pint of paint that has "not intended for retail sale, for professional use only" and you are DIY. These are CYA statements nothing more.
What i don't understand is why even bother starting a thread like this? If someone thinks its unethical then for Pete's sake just don't buy it.
Is there an ulterior motive? Question not an accusation.
Originally Posted By: Dupree
I haven't bought yet but I have a business, so ill be buying it without lying..... there's a different point of view.... as far as your moral obligation to not lie, can you find a fellow business owner that will let you pay him and order it through his business, just an alternative thought for what its worth.
how is it unethical, until we absolutely know why they want to sell it to businesses only there is no way to know the true intent of the restriction and whether you are skirting an ethical dilemma or not. I think if those out there cant sleep at night because they might be unethical buying kreen. The answer is cut and dry, don't buy it and look for a different product to suit your needs
just my .02
I haven't bought yet but I have a business, so ill be buying it without lying..... there's a different point of view.... as far as your moral obligation to not lie, can you find a fellow business owner that will let you pay him and order it through his business, just an alternative thought for what its worth.
how is it unethical, until we absolutely know why they want to sell it to businesses only there is no way to know the true intent of the restriction and whether you are skirting an ethical dilemma or not. I think if those out there cant sleep at night because they might be unethical buying kreen. The answer is cut and dry, don't buy it and look for a different product to suit your needs
just my .02
Last edited:
I don't have any ethical issues doing something that society, the government, or a company tells me that I am not supposed to do. I (personally) have an issue stating (by agreement in this case) something that is false.
If I am asked if I have ever broken the speed limit, I would have to either not answer the question or say yes. If I had to agree to never speed so that I could get a license, then I would have to drive without a license.
The intent of the question has nothing to do with whether my answer is false or true. I really don't care how the product is marked, I use items "off label" every day. I do care about be asked to agree to something that is not true. I seems to me that a whether the purchase is made by a business or not really has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the item is to be used in a "manufacturing process". It is the manufacturing process to which needs to agree.
I think that I am done with this thread. My views and original question do not seem to be something that anyone here want to discuss - that's fine. Since my ulterior motive has been stated multiple times without acceptance, I really don't know how to continue any useful participation.
As a recap, I was surprised that I could not truthfully agree to Kano Labs agreement. I also noted that I could how anyone could truthfully agree that Kreen would be used for manufacturing if the intended use of the produce is NOT manufacturing.
If I am asked if I have ever broken the speed limit, I would have to either not answer the question or say yes. If I had to agree to never speed so that I could get a license, then I would have to drive without a license.
The intent of the question has nothing to do with whether my answer is false or true. I really don't care how the product is marked, I use items "off label" every day. I do care about be asked to agree to something that is not true. I seems to me that a whether the purchase is made by a business or not really has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the item is to be used in a "manufacturing process". It is the manufacturing process to which needs to agree.
I think that I am done with this thread. My views and original question do not seem to be something that anyone here want to discuss - that's fine. Since my ulterior motive has been stated multiple times without acceptance, I really don't know how to continue any useful participation.
As a recap, I was surprised that I could not truthfully agree to Kano Labs agreement. I also noted that I could how anyone could truthfully agree that Kreen would be used for manufacturing if the intended use of the produce is NOT manufacturing.
It is pitiful when one who uses and likes a product cannot nicely discuss a basic issue about acquiring it, or simply acknowledge a valid point to which he has no answer and leave it at that.
Originally Posted By: GMorg
Since my ulterior motive has been stated multiple times without acceptance, I really don't know how to continue any useful participation.
What is the "ulterior motive"? Is it ethics, or was it to discredit the product? I have no idea, but would rather not let my imagination, or someone else lead me to believe something that might not be the truth.
Since my ulterior motive has been stated multiple times without acceptance, I really don't know how to continue any useful participation.
What is the "ulterior motive"? Is it ethics, or was it to discredit the product? I have no idea, but would rather not let my imagination, or someone else lead me to believe something that might not be the truth.
1. Guy goes to Kano web site to by Kreen. (Motive, to buy product)
2. Guy actually reads agreement (motive to know what he is agreeing to) and realized that he and actually no one else can HONESTLY agree.
3. Guy is amazed and shares his observations. (Motive, to discuss the situation with BITOG members)
4. Guy asks how others buy the product honestly. (Motive, let people know what they have agreed to).
5. Implications are made that a 6 year member, one that has attempted to be honest in every respect, as motives other than those that are stated. (I don't know the motives of others)
5. Guy tries on several occasions to to say the above. (motive, to clarify)
6. Guy decides that rational discussion is not possible on this subject. (motive, to come to a rational conclusion)
I didn't think that any of this was particularly complicated. I was either wrong, was a poor communicator, or I over estimated BITOG.
I will apologize now for anyone that thinks that they are being ignored by me due to a lack of response in this thread. I am going to try to not come back to this thread.
2. Guy actually reads agreement (motive to know what he is agreeing to) and realized that he and actually no one else can HONESTLY agree.
3. Guy is amazed and shares his observations. (Motive, to discuss the situation with BITOG members)
4. Guy asks how others buy the product honestly. (Motive, let people know what they have agreed to).
5. Implications are made that a 6 year member, one that has attempted to be honest in every respect, as motives other than those that are stated. (I don't know the motives of others)
5. Guy tries on several occasions to to say the above. (motive, to clarify)
6. Guy decides that rational discussion is not possible on this subject. (motive, to come to a rational conclusion)
I didn't think that any of this was particularly complicated. I was either wrong, was a poor communicator, or I over estimated BITOG.
I will apologize now for anyone that thinks that they are being ignored by me due to a lack of response in this thread. I am going to try to not come back to this thread.
I think this thread is ripe to be closed or moved to an off topic forum, it seems that there isn't any meaningful oil discussion going on here. AS for the OP. I wouldn't see this as an ethics dilemma in the end. The way I read it is a poorly worded document. They wanted to limit liability and think they found a solution to it by your agreement to there standards to purchase. But if you look at the statement of for use in manufacturing. How would one use a product designed to clean dirty engines in a manufacturing process. I understand that you want to be an honest person, I commend that I also commend you read contracts as few do. I just don't see that there is any meaningful progress being made to help you.
This is my last post on this..
You have the correct take on this IMO.
The OP called Kano and got the answer.
It appears to be a poorly worded document as you say.
He told them about it and thats all anyone can do if they are interested enough.
Kano can either make the modification right away for him or when they get around to it or do nothing because no one else has complained.
In any case no one on BITOG can do anything to remedy the situation.
I have been accused of not having a nice discussion about this but is there really any discussion? in the end you either buy the product or you don't.
You have the correct take on this IMO.
The OP called Kano and got the answer.
It appears to be a poorly worded document as you say.
He told them about it and thats all anyone can do if they are interested enough.
Kano can either make the modification right away for him or when they get around to it or do nothing because no one else has complained.
In any case no one on BITOG can do anything to remedy the situation.
I have been accused of not having a nice discussion about this but is there really any discussion? in the end you either buy the product or you don't.
Originally Posted By: GMorg
1. Guy goes to Kano web site to by Kreen. (Motive, to buy product)
2. Guy actually reads agreement (motive to know what he is agreeing to) and realized that he and actually no one else can HONESTLY agree.
3. Guy is amazed and shares his observations. (Motive, to discuss the situation with BITOG members)
4. Guy asks how others buy the product honestly. (Motive, let people know what they have agreed to).
5. Implications are made that a 6 year member, one that has attempted to be honest in every respect, as motives other than those that are stated. (I don't know the motives of others)
5. Guy tries on several occasions to to say the above. (motive, to clarify)
6. Guy decides that rational discussion is not possible on this subject. (motive, to come to a rational conclusion)
I didn't think that any of this was particularly complicated. I was either wrong, was a poor communicator, or I over estimated BITOG.
I will apologize now for anyone that thinks that they are being ignored by me due to a lack of response in this thread. I am going to try to not come back to this thread.
Now that you spelled it out you've cleared things up for me. I think you did the right thing in passing on it since it clearly violates [your] code of ethics. Which BTW there is nothing wrong with. I bought it for my business and think the product is fantastic. I will be buying more if/when the need presents itself.
I think I'm done with this thread too.
1. Guy goes to Kano web site to by Kreen. (Motive, to buy product)
2. Guy actually reads agreement (motive to know what he is agreeing to) and realized that he and actually no one else can HONESTLY agree.
3. Guy is amazed and shares his observations. (Motive, to discuss the situation with BITOG members)
4. Guy asks how others buy the product honestly. (Motive, let people know what they have agreed to).
5. Implications are made that a 6 year member, one that has attempted to be honest in every respect, as motives other than those that are stated. (I don't know the motives of others)
5. Guy tries on several occasions to to say the above. (motive, to clarify)
6. Guy decides that rational discussion is not possible on this subject. (motive, to come to a rational conclusion)
I didn't think that any of this was particularly complicated. I was either wrong, was a poor communicator, or I over estimated BITOG.
I will apologize now for anyone that thinks that they are being ignored by me due to a lack of response in this thread. I am going to try to not come back to this thread.
Now that you spelled it out you've cleared things up for me. I think you did the right thing in passing on it since it clearly violates [your] code of ethics. Which BTW there is nothing wrong with. I bought it for my business and think the product is fantastic. I will be buying more if/when the need presents itself.
I think I'm done with this thread too.
- Status
Similar threads
