Motorcraft FL820S

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Originally Posted By: sayjac
^^^^ Not a "shocker" for those that regularly read this board. IIRC at least two members (Nick R, ARCO) have previously posted pics here of the Ford OEM filter, and it's been posted here many times that Champ supplied the factory OEM filter.

And while the Motorcraft FL-820 may "technically" be "aftermarket", if one walks into a Ford dealer and asks for the FL-820S, it will be the Purolator made for Motorcraft filter that one will purchase, not the OE Champ made filter. Fwiw imo, the term 'aftermarket' means little in terms of gauging quality of the filter. But, the Champ factory filter fact is an interesting data point, if nothing else, I suppose.


Is there a point to all of your pointed thread trolling on multiple parties on here?

Motorcraft is available in retail settings. That qualifies them as aftermarket parts. They aren't the OEM part...they are the OES part so...aftermarket is a fair term.
 
Originally Posted By: RedCorvette
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Just for the record...

While that little PowerPoint is nice...Motorcraft themselves are technically "aftermarket." Motorcraft is not the first fit filter from the plant...shocker...Champ is. Champ is the largest first fit supplier in the industry right now.

Motorcraft does handle all of the Ford OES business though.


Yes I knew that.

Now is the "Champ" filter in the comparison the same filter or a different one?

I wonder what Ford's reasoning is. Is it supply chain related or break in related?


My apologies if my first response sounded snarky...was not intended that way. As some on here suggest...I apparently was stating the obvious. (Somehow I doubt everyone realized that, but I digress)

The Champ filter is different from the Motorcraft for the obvious reason that it's different manufacturers. Champ makes all of the 820's and 400's with a few others sprinkled in. I think they're also doing the 500's now, but I'd have to see.

As to why Ford goes with Champ at the first fit level...that's a great question. I'm pretty confident I can find out. I don't think it will be supply chain related as the filters are actually shipped direct to the motor plants and not to assembly, but I'll see what I can find out.
 
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Originally Posted By: RedCorvette
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Just for the record...

While that little PowerPoint is nice...Motorcraft themselves are technically "aftermarket." Motorcraft is not the first fit filter from the plant...shocker...Champ is. Champ is the largest first fit supplier in the industry right now.

Motorcraft does handle all of the Ford OES business though.


Yes I knew that.

Now is the "Champ" filter in the comparison the same filter or a different one?

I wonder what Ford's reasoning is. Is it supply chain related or break in related?


My apologies if my first response sounded snarky...was not intended that way. As some on here suggest...I apparently was stating the obvious. (Somehow I doubt everyone realized that, but I digress)

The Champ filter is different from the Motorcraft for the obvious reason that it's different manufacturers. Champ makes all of the 820's and 400's with a few others sprinkled in. I think they're also doing the 500's now, but I'd have to see.

As to why Ford goes with Champ at the first fit level...that's a great question. I'm pretty confident I can find out. I don't think it will be supply chain related as the filters are actually shipped direct to the motor plants and not to assembly, but I'll see what I can find out.


Thanks. I meant is the Champ filter made for Ford very different to the Champ aftermarket filter. I was kind of hoping that the Champ could be a cheap high quality replacement.

Apparently they are quite different.
 
Oh yes...the Champ aftermarket version will look nothing like the OEM part. It will undoubtedly be Ecore. It all depends on what filter number you're looking at.

Champ has very much tried to get away from the classic type construction unless it's specified by the customer. The K&N Pro Series that they are manufacturing would essentially be the old Bosch construction, but it will still be more than the $3-4 range that many require on here. That might be a close alternative?
 
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Originally Posted By: sayjac
^^^^ Not a "shocker" for those that regularly read this board. IIRC at least two members (Nick R, ARCO) have previously posted pics here of the Ford OEM filter, and it's been posted here many times that Champ supplied the factory OEM filter.

And while the Motorcraft FL-820 may "technically" be "aftermarket", if one walks into a Ford dealer and asks for the FL-820S, it will be the Purolator made for Motorcraft filter that one will purchase, not the OE Champ made filter. Fwiw imo, the term 'aftermarket' means little in terms of gauging quality of the filter. But, the Champ factory filter fact is an interesting data point, if nothing else, I suppose.

Is there a point to all of your pointed thread trolling on multiple parties on here?
Motorcraft is available in retail settings. That qualifies them as aftermarket parts. They aren't the OEM part...they are the OES part so...aftermarket is a fair term.

I don't consider ammending, correcting, or pointing out a difference of thought to be thread trolling. And as I've never been accused of such before, I'd say this your issue, not mine or any nameless parties. But here's an informational suggestion for you. If you don't like reading my posts, put my display name on "ignore", and then you don't have to read my posts again. Very simple.

You said it is a "shocker" that Champ was the factory supplier of Ford filters. In response I stated that to those who frequent this board it's no "shocker" at all. That is an accurate statement which I went on to explain, and then later follow up with a link to pics the referenced Ford factory filter previously posted here.

As for the 'technical' definition of the term aftermarket, I simply pointed out that while it may be FL820-S may be aftermarket it's also the filter sold at Ford dealers, also accurate. Makes Motorcraft somewhat unique in terms of the word aftermarket.

For future reference though, feel free to take advantage of the above polite suggestion.
cheers3.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Originally Posted By: RedCorvette
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Just for the record...

While that little PowerPoint is nice...Motorcraft themselves are technically "aftermarket." Motorcraft is not the first fit filter from the plant...shocker...Champ is. Champ is the largest first fit supplier in the industry right now.

Motorcraft does handle all of the Ford OES business though.


Yes I knew that.

Now is the "Champ" filter in the comparison the same filter or a different one?

I wonder what Ford's reasoning is. Is it supply chain related or break in related?


My apologies if my first response sounded snarky...was not intended that way. As some on here suggest...I apparently was stating the obvious. (Somehow I doubt everyone realized that, but I digress)

The Champ filter is different from the Motorcraft for the obvious reason that it's different manufacturers. Champ makes all of the 820's and 400's with a few others sprinkled in. I think they're also doing the 500's now, but I'd have to see.

As to why Ford goes with Champ at the first fit level...that's a great question. I'm pretty confident I can find out. I don't think it will be supply chain related as the filters are actually shipped direct to the motor plants and not to assembly, but I'll see what I can find out.


RedCorvette:

I found out a little more on the backstory. The Champ filter is indeed a higher spec filter mainly in burst and capacity. It would be similar to a M1 filter that Champ builds, but not the same media.

The reason Puro does the Motorcraft is that they actively chased that business years ago. They did not have the ability to manufacture the FoMoCo stuff at that time. Obviously now, they could, due to the addition of Bosch D+ being added to the overall line. Seems almost too simple, but it happens.

Also it appears that Motorcraft is getting a better deal on the Puro supplied part than the Champ which is why they retail the Puro offering.
 
all paper filters are debris passers!!these filters stay in bypass the majority of the time. diff. pressure across the thick media puts filter in bypass..what i have found out and learned throughout the years..thats why i went to stainless steel filter mesh which gets all of the particles at 100% not affected by media expansion...sorry all but i disagree with all of you who use paper filters and then try to relationlize the use.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
all paper filters are debris passers!!these filters stay in bypass the majority of the time. diff. pressure across the thick media puts filter in bypass..what i have found out and learned throughout the years..thats why i went to stainless steel filter mesh which gets all of the particles at 100% not affected by media expansion...sorry all but i disagree with all of you who use paper filters and then try to relationlize the use.


Where can we get these stainless steel mesh filters from?
 
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Originally Posted By: RedCorvette
Originally Posted By: Hannibal
Just for the record...

While that little PowerPoint is nice...Motorcraft themselves are technically "aftermarket." Motorcraft is not the first fit filter from the plant...shocker...Champ is. Champ is the largest first fit supplier in the industry right now.

Motorcraft does handle all of the Ford OES business though.


Yes I knew that.

Now is the "Champ" filter in the comparison the same filter or a different one?

I wonder what Ford's reasoning is. Is it supply chain related or break in related?


My apologies if my first response sounded snarky...was not intended that way. As some on here suggest...I apparently was stating the obvious. (Somehow I doubt everyone realized that, but I digress)

The Champ filter is different from the Motorcraft for the obvious reason that it's different manufacturers. Champ makes all of the 820's and 400's with a few others sprinkled in. I think they're also doing the 500's now, but I'd have to see.

As to why Ford goes with Champ at the first fit level...that's a great question. I'm pretty confident I can find out. I don't think it will be supply chain related as the filters are actually shipped direct to the motor plants and not to assembly, but I'll see what I can find out.


RedCorvette:

I found out a little more on the backstory. The Champ filter is indeed a higher spec filter mainly in burst and capacity. It would be similar to a M1 filter that Champ builds, but not the same media.

The reason Puro does the Motorcraft is that they actively chased that business years ago. They did not have the ability to manufacture the FoMoCo stuff at that time. Obviously now, they could, due to the addition of Bosch D+ being added to the overall line. Seems almost too simple, but it happens.

Also it appears that Motorcraft is getting a better deal on the Puro supplied part than the Champ which is why they retail the Puro offering.


Thanks!
 
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
all paper filters are debris passers!!these filters stay in bypass the majority of the time. diff. pressure across the thick media puts filter in bypass..what i have found out and learned throughout the years..thats why i went to stainless steel filter mesh which gets all of the particles at 100% not affected by media expansion...sorry all but i disagree with all of you who use paper filters and then try to relationlize the use.


I don't agree that paper filters "stay in bypass the majority of the time". So us the test data.

Here's real test data. If a paper filter the size of the one tested in the link below can flow 12 GPM of hot oil and only produce 5 PISD across the media, then there is no way these filters are in bypass at all while on the road.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451
 
you can rationlize all you want but i tell you your paper filter is in bypass most of the time!!it doesn't take much..also too much pressure will destroy your filter..paper filters cost manufacturers 2 bucks to make and that is suppose to keep your engine free of debris?and robs you of good flow not....a paper filter seems like a loser deal to me.we tear down many many engines and find bits of paper media blocking passages etc..and destroy filter media in the filter itself...just makes common sense to push a thick oil through paper and a car going 30+mph filter has to be in by pass...this is the best i can explain this just real world observations..paper media expands and contracts and eventually bits and pieces fall out.and big particles get into your engine.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
you can rationlize all you want but i tell you your paper filter is in bypass most of the time!!it doesn't take much..also too much pressure will destroy your filter..paper filters cost manufacturers 2 bucks to make and that is suppose to keep your engine free of debris?and robs you of good flow not....a paper filter seems like a loser deal to me.


You can believe what you want, but there's been no real evidence that what you've said above is true. If paper filters were in bypass most of the time because of so much pressure difference across the media, we'd be seeing many members reporting and posting up photos of internally destroyed filters on a daily bases here.

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22

we tear down many many engines and find bits of paper media blocking passages etc..and destroy filter media in the filter itself...just makes common sense to push a thick oil through paper and a car going 30+mph filter has to be in by pass...this is the best i can explain this just real world observations..paper media expands and contracts and eventually bits and pieces fall out.and big particles get into your engine.


Sure, there might be some cases where someone gets in their car when it's -20 deg F outside and they fire it up and let it warm up for 15 sec than take off on the freeway at 60 mph. In that case then the filter probably would be in bypass for a while, but after the oil warmed up some it would go out of bypass. The filter designers are smart enough to know how much PSID the filter can take, and therefore design the filter accordingly. No filter should become damaged by going into bypass mode unless it's just a poorly designed or cheaply manufactured filter not made by one of the top makers.
 
even if bypass opens up and passes unfiltered oil into the engine at any time is still too much. wouldn't you rather have a filter that filters at any speed? 100% of the time? i surely do..
you get what you pay for..this seems so clear to me..k&n just added stainless steel oil filters to their line up and even those would be far better then any cellulose filter.they flow 20gpm has a by pass and no anti drainback valve which you don't need in a nonrestrictive filter.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
even if bypass opens up and passes unfiltered oil into the engine at any time is still too much. wouldn't you rather have a filter that filters at any speed? 100% of the time? i surely do..
you get what you pay for..this seems so clear to me.


Sure, everyone wants a filter with zero flow resistance and that can catch every particle down to 5 microns in an "ideal world". If these stainless steel mesh filters do all that, then great. But they filter down to what, around 35~40 microns which isn't horrible. Guess it all depends if someone wants to spend lots of money on a filter they need to disassemble, clean and reassemble at each OCI.

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
k&n just added stainless steel oil filters to their line up and even those would be far better then any cellulose filter.they flow 20gpm has a by pass and no anti drainback valve which you don't need in a nonrestrictive filter.


I think they would still need an ADBV. If they don't, depending on the application, the whole oiling circuit could potentially drain back down into the sump, and then every start-up would essentially be a dry start.

When an engine is started up, the positive displacement oil pump is going to force the same oil volume through the engine at the same rate, regardless if it has a paper filter of a stainless steel screen filter on it.
 
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
you get what you pay for..this seems so clear to me..k&n just added stainless steel oil filters to their line up and even those would be far better then any cellulose filter.they flow 20gpm has a by pass and no anti drainback valve which you don't need in a nonrestrictive filter.

With millions of engines that have been produced in the last 50 years alone, some of which have ran 300-400K miles or longer on cellulose filters that supposedly remain in bypass most of the time, just how much longer would they have ran if they would have had a stainless filter the supposedly does not go into bypass?

Pardon my frankness, but you seem to suggest that all mass produced cellulose filters are "junk" and we should all upgrade to one of these stainless filters to extend the lives of our engines by an unmentioned amount. Is there data to substantiate this? While there may be an assumption the use of the stainless filters versus cellulose filters equates longer engine life, do you have objective and verifiable data to prove it?

Of course, this is not to mention the fact the stainless filters have to be cleaned and how do you ensure the cleaning process does not wash particles back into the filter media only to be deposited in the engine on first start up? It would seem that if these filters were the "be all-end all" to filters they would have cornered the market and Motorcraft/WIX/Baldwin/Champion Labs/Purolator would be out of business at this point.
 
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
even if bypass opens up and passes unfiltered oil into the engine at any time is still too much. wouldn't you rather have a filter that filters at any speed? 100% of the time? i surely do..
you get what you pay for..this seems so clear to me..k&n just added stainless steel oil filters to their line up and even those would be far better then any cellulose filter.they flow 20gpm has a by pass and no anti drainback valve which you don't need in a nonrestrictive filter.


Or one can just run a wire-backed glass media filter and get superior flow AND superior filtration.........
whistle.gif
 
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