Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 VOA

[himemsys]

From a fresh 5qt jug that looks like it has a 2022 package date on it. Jug was shaken, seal removed, and poured straight into sample container. Not sure if the Al and other metals are part of the formula or somehow snuck in. I've never found a VOA for this oil, so was curious to test it out before it goes into our 2018 CRV.

 

[johnD2]

I like it. Thinking I'm gonna try it next ,now that my local AZ's are selling 5 qt jugs.

 

[jurko]

TBN is falsely understated due Test Method D4739 which I suspect is used by Blakstone. Test Method D4739 uses hydrochloric acid which is weaker than perchloric acid used in Test Method D2896 to determine TBN of virgin oil. Test Method D4739 is usually used to determine TBN for oil in service.

All the results of VOA's on Russian oil club for TBN are determined by Test Method D2896. TBN of M1 ESP SAE 5W-30 tested in 2018 was 8.61 and TAN 1.48. Other oil properties numbers are pretty much similar to what you posted.

 

[himemsys]

TBN is falsely understated due Test Method D4739 which I suspect is used by Blakstone. Test Method D4739 uses hydrochloric acid which is weaker than perchloric acid used in Test Method D2896 to determine TBN of virgin oil. Test Method D4739 is usually used to determine TBN for oil in service.

All the results of VOA's on Russian oil club for TBN are determined by Test Method D2896. TBN of M1 ESP SAE 5W-30 tested in 2018 was 8.61 and TAN 1.48. Other oil properties numbers are pretty much similar to what you posted.

I'm not sure I agree with the "falsely understated" comment. There are several labs that use D4739, so it's not like Blackstone is the lone wolf and their TBN results are different than everyone else's. So everyone is used to seeing VOAs done under D4739, and there are plenty of other VOAs to compare to using the same method.

Also, D4739 should be used (according to ASTM) when a virgin oil will be retested after service (which I am going to do).

 

[jurko]

It is recomended to use ASTM D2896 which yealds much more accurate TBN number and this type of test also measures the base from metalic detergents.

Why those several labs use D4739 as you stated?
Because those labs are not set up to deal with perchloric acid which is hard to handle and also very toxic so they use D4739 with hydrochloric acid which is easier to handle, much safer and more cost effective.

 

[himemsys]

It is recomended to use ASTM D2896 which yealds much more accurate TBN number and this type of test also measures the base from metalic detergents.

Why those several labs use D4739 as you stated?
Because those labs are not set up to deal with perchloric acid which is hard to handle and also very toxic so they use D4739 with hydrochloric acid which is easier to handle, much safer and more cost effective.

I get that when you're comparing virgin samples it is recommended to use D2896. But if you ever want to do a UOA on that oil, you can no longer compare to the virgin value with accuracy. And since UOAs are much more common than VOAs, if we want to compare used to virgin values, we have to use the same method.

According to ASTM:
1) if comparing virgin oils without intent to retest after the oil is used, use D2896
2) if comparing to used oil to see drop in TBN, use D4739.

 

[4WD]

I get that when you're comparing virgin samples it is recommended to use D2896. But if you ever want to do a UOA on that oil, you can no longer compare to the virgin value with accuracy. And since UOAs are much more common than VOAs, if we want to compare used to virgin values, we have to use the same method.

According to ASTM:
1) if comparing virgin oils without intent to retest after the oil is used, use D2896
2) if comparing to used oil to see drop in TBN, use D4739.

Gives rise to this question - would this oil get these with Blackstone’s TBN

 

[jurko]

I get that when you're comparing virgin samples it is recommended to use D2896. But if you ever want to do a UOA on that oil, you can no longer compare to the virgin value with accuracy. And since UOAs are much more common than VOAs, if we want to compare used to virgin values, we have to use the same method.

According to ASTM:
1) if comparing virgin oils without intent to retest after the oil is used, use D2896
2) if comparing to used oil to see drop in TBN, use D4739.

Fine. But it still doesn't change my point that the TBN value of virgin oil in Blackstone report in falsely understated.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Fine. But it still doesn't change my point that the TBN value of virgin oil in Blackstone report in falsely understated.

English isn't your primary language. You don't want to use the term "falsely". It's about applying the correct test for the intended purpose. In this case it's TBN retention between virgin and used rather than comparing TBN of various virgin samples.

 

[jurko]

English isn't your primary language. You don't want to use the term "falsely". It's about applying the correct test for the intended purpose. In this case it's TBN retention between virgin and used rather than comparing TBN of various virgin samples.

 

[kschachn]

TBN hardly matters anymore given today’s fuels and engines. The approvals the oil holds guarantee a minimum value which is more than adequate.

 

[himemsys]

English isn't your primary language. You don't want to use the term "falsely". It's about applying the correct test for the intended purpose. In this case it's TBN retention between virgin and used rather than comparing TBN of various virgin samples.

To be fair to @jurko, ASTM actually does use that language. Here is a snippet on the differences between D4739 and D2896:

What’s the difference?
In addition to ASTM D2896, the Total Base Number of a lubricant can be tested by the procedure
detailed in ASTM D4739. There are subtle, yet important differences to consider when looking
at Total Base Number data from each. Technically speaking, the primary differences between
D4739 and D2896 are D4739 uses hydrochloric acid as the titrant and D2896 uses perchloric
acid. In addition, they use different titration solvents.
What does ASTM say?
Because hydrochloric acid is weaker than perchloric acid, D4739 is less effective than D2896 in
titrating weak bases. This can result in what ASTM refers to as a “falsely exaggerated” or
sometimes even “falsely understated”. For these reasons, ASTM says:
When the base number of the new oil is required as an expression of its manufactured quality,
Test Method D2896 is preferred, since it is known to titrate weak bases that this test method may
or may not titrate reliably.
What ASTM is recommended for use on new oils?
When the base number of a new oil is required as an expression of its manufactured
quality, the test method D2896 is preferred, since it is known to titrate weak bases that this test
method may or may not titrate.
What ASTM is recommended for used lubricants?
When the base number of in-service or at-term oil is required, D4739 is preferred in many
cases, specifically for internal combustion engine oils, weakly basic degradation products are
possible. Test method D2896 will titrate these, thus giving false value of essential basicity. When
a loss of a base number value as an oil proceeds in service is required, then test method D4739
should be used.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Fine. But it still doesn't change my point that the TBN value of virgin oil in Blackstone report in falsely understated.

It’s not falsely understated, that implies that Blackstone is lying for some purpose that would suit their goals over the customer’s want for data. Blackstone are testing per the ASTM standards as described, and are perfectly representative of the results that would be obtained by any other testing laboratory that tests using the D4739 testing standard.

 

[kschachn]

It’s not falsely understated, that implies that Blackstone is lying for some purpose that would suit their goals over the customer’s want for data. Blackstone are testing per the ASTM standards as described, and are perfectly representative of the results that would be obtained by any other testing laboratory that tests using the D4739 testing standard.

Yes within the reproducibility tolerance and as long as the equipment is the correct ASTM device and calibrated and operated per the ASTM procedures. And if the data is analyzed correctly per that same procedure.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

To be fair to @jurko, ASTM actually does use that language. Here is a snippet on the differences between D4739 and D2896:

It’s curious why ASTM would use that terminology, since initial testing of TBN is particularly irrelevant, especially when they state that you cannot use the D2896 method if you’re going to test the oil afterwards. If anything, D2896 would falsely overstate TBN when comparing virgin oil to used oil.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Yes within the reproducibility tolerance and as long as the equipment is the correct ASTM device and calibrated and operated per the ASTM procedures. And if the data is analyzed correctly per that same procedure.

Agree. Made the statement with the expectation that the testing standard & procedure would be followed.

 

[The_Captain]

Thanks for having the analysis done and posting it.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

To be fair to @jurko, ASTM actually does use that language. Here is a snippet on the differences between D4739 and D2896:

IMO I would've worded it in such a way that it notates a term used by ASTM. Perhaps put it in quotes. Both tests themselves are valid and serve different purposes one is not more valid than the other and have nothing to with Blackstone choosing one test over another because its easier for them from a materials handling perspective.

 

[kschachn]

IMO I would've worded it in such a way that it notates a term used by ASTM. Perhaps put it in quotes. Both tests themselves are valid and serve different purposes one is not more valid than the other and have nothing to with Blackstone choosing one test over another because its easier for them from a materials handling perspective.

Yes, no, maybe so. Not all ASTM tests exactly reproduce behavior in expected ways. One has to pick the test that represents the behavior you’re looking to test.

 

[Big_B]

Could this be used in a direct injected motor?
Seems most lspi oils are low in Ca and higher in Mg. This has zero Mg