MMO Marvel Mystery oil Brings down Piper Aircraft

[cjcride]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
Nothing wrong with MMO.

Almost every issue I've come across in life can be attributed to "user error."

Exactly.

Some idiot takes half a bottle of Vitamins and gets sick as [censored].
So all the Chicken Littles run into their panic.

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: Techniker
To be fair, you have to remember that this is an NTSB report which is a joke of an agency. How can you take an article seriously that states that "The contents of Marvel Mystery Oil were 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard"? That's so comical- the NTSB and other executive agencies are filled with liberal arts degree idiots who couldn't find a job in art history. Go figure.

-Tech


It's doubtful they ran the analysis test themselves, IMO. However since the lab is not specified in the report, it's not possible to extrapolate from the information available.

I suppose one could submit an FOIA and get more details, but I'm not an MMO fan and I just really don't care that much

 

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Aoocrding to Rich Kelly the MMO tech guy at Turtle Wax, MMO is octane neutral. So the dose must have been extremely high.


Octane neutral ???? What does that mean?

Whatever he thinks it means, I doubt that MMO is "octane neutral" in the context of high octane aviation fuel. I would imagine that the decrease would be pretty steep in comparison to its effect on auto fuel, plus we know the dosage was way over the top. The resulting octane rating was probably WAY below what it should have been.

 

[stuntboy79]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
An empty 1 gallon can of Marvel Mystery Oil was found in the operator's trash


Sounds like somebody has been using the old "if a little is good then more must be better" theory.


+1

 

[expat]

"Octane neutral ???? What does that mean? "

My 'guess' on that comment is taken to mean; In the prescribed dose, with normal Automotive fuel, MMO will not change the Octane rate to any significant degree.

On it's own I would guess Mineral oil and Stoddard solvent would proberbly have a fairly low Octane rating.
I'm not sure about Lard?
If I were Mr Turtle wax, I think I would challenge the 'Lard'
aspersion!

 

[demarpaint]

MMO is for use in automobile engines, I don't know about aviation, there is no mention on their packaging for aviation use. In gasoline MMO is octane neutral, which as mentioned above when used at the suggested rate it has no effect on octane. Once you start to use it in fuel it wasn't intended for, or at more than the suggested dose I would venture to say it has an effect on octane, and the fuel.

Having said that MMO is used by some in small planes because it kept carbs clean and requiring less adjustments. At least I read that somewhere, but once again it is not on their packaging.

This really isn't that difficult to figure out. Someone screwed up, and used too much MMO. The FFA did an investigation determined someone added MMO to the gas, at 4 times the rate. Guess what? They had a problem. As long as they investigated why not find out who added 4 times the suggested amount to the fuel and have a talk with him.

Again, vitamins, and medicine taken as directed can be very helpful. Heck even booze in small amounts can be beneficial. Think out of the box, make up your own doses, drink too much, and you could have a very real problem. JMO

 

[beanoil]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Examination of the engine revealed low compression on all cylinders, ranging from 44/80 to 5/80. Air bypass was noted on all exhaust valves, and on two of the intake valves. The number two cylinder was removed, and evidence consistent with detonation was found on the surface of the piston, and on the valves.



Very low compression and piston and valve damage in such a short time? I think this engine had issues long before this flight.Who knows maybe someone thought the MMO would help improve engine performance and added it.

BINGO!! And even at that dosage, MMO is not going to turn blue dyed fuel red, assuming that the same fuel was filled in all three tanks. There is more to this story than that article reveals. I found from an avaiation website that
- Avgas 80 octane color = Red
- Avgas 100 octane color = Green
- Avgas 100LL octane color = Blue
Anyone willing to bet an non spec fuel was in one tank?
BTW, I use MMO every tank in both my F250, and the new Equinox. In the truck I stick with 4oz to 10 gallons. The Nox gets 4oz for every 14 gallons (average fillup).

 

[demarpaint]

Yes I'm sure there is a lot more to the story than the article tells. Blame MMO then tell the pilots not to use it, hey why not? Maybe someone filled up with the wrong gas, and thought adding MMO would change the color to the color required for that plane?

 

[edhackett]

The red 80/87 aviation fuel has not been available in the US for a long time. 100LL replaced both 80/87 and 100/115 at least 10 years ago.

MMO is not FAA approved. Anybody using MMO in FAA type certified aircraft is breaking the law.

An engine could not have been in that condition before take off. It would not have gotten off the ground. It couldn't keep it in the air. Yes, low octane will destroy this type of engine in a matter of minutes.

I'm not saying MMO caused the problem, as I too would like to see more data. The fact does remain that there are plausible mechanisms that don't absolve an overdose of MMO as the cause.

Ed

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
The red 80/87 aviation fuel has not been available in the US for a long time. 100LL replaced both 80/87 and 100/115 at least 10 years ago.

MMO is not FAA approved. Anybody using MMO in FAA type certified aircraft is breaking the law.

An engine could not have been in that condition before take off. It would not have gotten off the ground. It couldn't keep it in the air. Yes, low octane will destroy this type of engine in a matter of minutes.

I'm not saying MMO caused the problem, as I too would like to see more data. The fact does remain that there are plausible mechanisms that don't absolve an overdose of MMO as the cause.

Ed


We will never know exactly what caused the crash. What we do, and what will remain unchanged, is that no dosage of MMO within Marvel specified amounts (and adding in a generous heap of fudge factor, which 4x the amount is far beyond fudging it up a bit), caused it to crash. We know this because the dosage of MMO used was nowhere close to anhything recommended by Marvel, and was - taking the most generous data available - in excess of 4x what they specify.

It can therefore be concluded that the product did not cause the crash. It can be ruled because the manufacturer specifies how much is to be used, and whoever dumped it in, dumped in at least 4x that amount.

As I indicated earlier, the difference between a therapeutic dose of lithium and a lethal dose is, by FDA standards, extremely low; and people have died from overdoses of it (accidental or otherwise). Yet a statement such as Lithium kills people would not only be false, but run contrary to medical ethics and those of the physicians prescribing it (as its not chosen, or prescribed, in a dosage that is fatal). "MMO kills engines," as some have said, basing it on this instance runs into the same fallacy and is equally false.

Those are the facts (and I now rest my case).

-Spyder

 

[MolaKule]

The comment about lard in MMO is totally ridiculous.

The fuel in each tank should have been sampled amd analyzed for octane rating after the crash.

I would wager the MMO was added in such a ratio that it reduced the octane rating of the fuel, which apparently caused engine detonation and susequently resulted in engine damage and failure.

The problem seems to be with the idiot who added the MMO in the first place, not the MMO proper.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Still no one explained to me how MMO tied into lower compression readings? IMO that engine had issues someone was trying to resolve.


It could have lowered the octane rating of the fuel causing detonation and damage to the valves and pistons. This lowers compression. (doh! Looks like Mola beat me to this).

What is the point of screwing with additives in an aircraft? The company I work for has two planes, and we don't add ANYTHING to the fuel. Or to the oil. You use what is specified for the application. It is one thing goofing around with additives in a car where the worst that can happen is you bugger your engine. It is quite another doing it in an aircraft where you can end up a smear in a field somewhere.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
The FFA did an investigation determined someone added MMO to the gas, at 4 times the rate.


I don't think the Future Farmers of America are involved in aviation investigations. This investigation was done by the NTSB, the National Transportation Safety Board, which is a different governmental agency and has a different charter.

Quote:
During his preflight inspection of the airplane, he noticed that the fuel in one tank was pink in color. He attributed that to the addition of a fuel additive.


Hmmm! How wold he know this unless he knew of this activity in the first place? And why didn't he have it drained if he felt the fuel was contaminated?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
...a chance that TCW3 or MMO added to the fuel could make a tighter ring seal raising compression slightly in a tired, worn engine, certainly not lower it.


The ring seal is determined by the engine oil, level of ring/cylinder wear, and ring tension.

 

[CourierDriver]

Ive been using mmo for a long time,,,overdoses and underdoses, never any harm,,added one quart to my 35 gallon tank many times, never a problem,,yes it was a waste,,i do that just for the heck of it,,but not a gallon to a tank. I now add 2 cycle oil to my gas with the tcw3 and it does great, and is cheaper then mmo, one ounce to five gallons of gas, now this ratio is the best, it is way sensitive to adding more then that ratio, dont go adding a quart to a tank of gas, ur engine may not start>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[demarpaint]

Had the guy that added a gallon of MMO to the Piper gas tank added a gallon of TCW3 to it instead, odds are there wouldn't have been a crash, or an FAA Investigation. I don't think the plane would have ever taken off.

 

[gib]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The comment about lard in MMO is totally ridiculous.

Indeed, and I'm surprised that tidbit hasn't gotten more direct comments in this thread. That such a ridiculous and false bit of information is in the official NTSB report calls into question the accuracy and thoroughness of the report in general.

 

[simple_gifts]

Quote:

Stupid... MMO works great when it is used by someone that can read.


And knows how many ounces are in a quart.

 

[greenaccord02]

A rap song actually taught me how to remember how many ounces were in a quart. Funny thing, another one taught me how many grams roughly equal an ounce and still another one taught me how many ounces were in a pound. I also learned practically the entire metric system from rap music, but that's a topic for another thread...

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
A rap song actually taught me how to remember how many ounces were in a quart. Funny thing, another one taught me how many grams roughly equal an ounce and still another one taught me how many ounces were in a pound. I also learned practically the entire metric system from rap music, but that's a topic for another thread...



...and another one taught you how many rounds a Glock holds, and yet another one told you the going price for a lady walking the streets. Rap is obviously good for something.