Michelin Recall for Snowflake Issue
- Thread starter CapriRacer
- Start date
uuups, don't surprise me at all with those cross climate tire'sApparently some Michelin tires don't meet the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol requirements. First time I have heard of that.
You received this email because you have requested to be notified by NHTSA if there is a safety recall regarding Tires.
Please click on the following NHTSA Recall ID links to view the recall information.
Thank you,
23T002 Michelin North America, Inc. (Michelin) is recalling certain Agilis CrossClimate C-Metric tires with DOT codes 0117 through 1423. Please see the attached tire chart for a list of all affected sizes. The tires are labeled as snow tires, but do not have sufficient traction to perform in all snow weather conditions. As such, these tires fail to comply with the requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard number 139, "New Pneumatic Radial Tires for Light Vehicles." Tires that do not provide sufficient traction as expected can increase the risk of a crash. Dealers will replace the tires, free of charge. Interim owner notification letters informing owners of the safety risk will be mailed June 12, 2023. Owners will receive a second notice once the remedy becomes available. Owners may contact Michelin's customer service at 1-866-324-2835.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
United States Department of Transportation
Some mistakes were made - by me!! Here's the ones I know about so far:
My webpage on Winter Tires initially said the criteria for the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol was different between Europe and North America.. That was never true. I must have seen an earlier version of the regulations. I have already fixed that,
Further, it seems there may be no difference at all between Europe and North America as far as testing goes - meaning that if a tire passes in EU, it passes in North America and everywhere - and vice versa! I need to confirm this, which is going to take a couple of days.
As was stated above by Krzyss, the recall stems from using the wrong inflation pressure for testing. When tested at the correct pressure, the tires fail. I should have reported this. Also, I think there is more to this story and I'll bet a little digging around may yield some interesting information.
It seems that there is a US regulation requiring snow tires to display the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol. I'm not sure about the use of the words "Winter Tires" in the US, so I am going to have to read the regulation much more closely. Again, that's going to take a few days!
Sorry, guys.
My webpage on Winter Tires initially said the criteria for the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol was different between Europe and North America.. That was never true. I must have seen an earlier version of the regulations. I have already fixed that,
Further, it seems there may be no difference at all between Europe and North America as far as testing goes - meaning that if a tire passes in EU, it passes in North America and everywhere - and vice versa! I need to confirm this, which is going to take a couple of days.
As was stated above by Krzyss, the recall stems from using the wrong inflation pressure for testing. When tested at the correct pressure, the tires fail. I should have reported this. Also, I think there is more to this story and I'll bet a little digging around may yield some interesting information.
It seems that there is a US regulation requiring snow tires to display the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol. I'm not sure about the use of the words "Winter Tires" in the US, so I am going to have to read the regulation much more closely. Again, that's going to take a few days!
Sorry, guys.
new standards are on the way in the EU when it comes to winter tires. To separate central European winter tires from Nordic winter tires
Followup:
It appears the recall is because the tire displays the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol and doesn't pass the test. It passed the test under certain conditions - both load and pressure were mentioned - but the initial tests seemed to have been done wrong. There's an odd note that some of the test results were "inconclusive", which I interpret to mean the test results didn't pass with enough margin that anyone conducting the test will get satisfactory results 100% of the time.
I've read the US regulations and it doesn't appear to say that to have the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol, the tire has to pass the test - which is odd. It does say that a snow tire is defined by having the symbol and that means the tire passed the test. But these tires aren't marketed as snow tires. I suppose there is an argument to be made that the recall is unnecessary, but if I were an attorney, I wouldn't want to make that argument in court.
And more clarification about the EU braking test Yes there is an alternative test approved by the EU that is a braking test - as opposed to an acceleration test that was the first test approved. A tire can pass EITHER test and get the symbol - in EU.
But in the US and Canada, only the acceleration test is mentioned. And the way the regulations are written, it's unclear that you have to pass the test to display the symbol - BUT - you can't call it a "Snow Tire".
The term "Winter Tire" doesn't appear in the US regulations anywhere, but the Canadian regulations don't mention "Snow Tire" and use the term "Winter Tires" in its place. But the same thing, the Canadian don't say that you have to pass the test to display the symbol, but you can't call it a "Winter Tire".
And the "Nordic (Ice Grip) Symbol" in the EU. It apparently has been approved and is being used. There is an implication that all tires that have the Nordic symbol will also have the Alpine symbol, but I can't find anything official that says that.
I know that's not as helpful as it could have been, but it is what it is.
It appears the recall is because the tire displays the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol and doesn't pass the test. It passed the test under certain conditions - both load and pressure were mentioned - but the initial tests seemed to have been done wrong. There's an odd note that some of the test results were "inconclusive", which I interpret to mean the test results didn't pass with enough margin that anyone conducting the test will get satisfactory results 100% of the time.
I've read the US regulations and it doesn't appear to say that to have the Alpine (3PMSF) symbol, the tire has to pass the test - which is odd. It does say that a snow tire is defined by having the symbol and that means the tire passed the test. But these tires aren't marketed as snow tires. I suppose there is an argument to be made that the recall is unnecessary, but if I were an attorney, I wouldn't want to make that argument in court.
And more clarification about the EU braking test Yes there is an alternative test approved by the EU that is a braking test - as opposed to an acceleration test that was the first test approved. A tire can pass EITHER test and get the symbol - in EU.
But in the US and Canada, only the acceleration test is mentioned. And the way the regulations are written, it's unclear that you have to pass the test to display the symbol - BUT - you can't call it a "Snow Tire".
The term "Winter Tire" doesn't appear in the US regulations anywhere, but the Canadian regulations don't mention "Snow Tire" and use the term "Winter Tires" in its place. But the same thing, the Canadian don't say that you have to pass the test to display the symbol, but you can't call it a "Winter Tire".
And the "Nordic (Ice Grip) Symbol" in the EU. It apparently has been approved and is being used. There is an implication that all tires that have the Nordic symbol will also have the Alpine symbol, but I can't find anything official that says that.
I know that's not as helpful as it could have been, but it is what it is.
Nordic (ice grip) have also alpine symbol, since its higher teir winter tire "spec". ice grip will apply by the law in near future if you want to drive in a Nordic country in winter time.
49 CFR 571.139
The US CFR gives you a minimum requirement for the traction index.
In Canadia, different term, similar standard
The US CFR gives you a minimum requirement for the traction index.
In Canadia, different term, similar standard
It's more of a situation of Nordic symbol also has a Alpine Symbol, but not all Alpine Symbol tires meet the Nordic symbol standard.
It's like over here, an Alpine symbol happens to be a M+S tire, but not all M+S tires meet Alpine symbol standard.
I had this same issue with a set of Michelin tires on a Subaru. After three years, but more than less than 12,000 miles, they were badly cracked all over and the sidewalls looked like suede by 2017. This was severely disappointing after using nothing but Michelin since 1973. I am trying out Pirelli on my wife's minivan now.
Michelin is the top tire mfg in terms of quality. Maybe some OEM or cheaper versions had some issues, but they are consistently winning tests and the OE for every high performance car basically. Continental is pretty good too but otherwise I’ve seen a lot of garbage.
I had tens of their sets and never had an issue, absolutely not a single one.
I still think PSS is the greatest tire ever made, period.
And just to be clear:
These symbols and markings are independent - meaning that a tire doesn't have to pass - say - the Alpine test in order to be eligible for the Nordic symbol - that it is possible to have a tire with a Nordic only symbol.
Same for M+S and Alpine. None of these are prerequisites of the others. They are not nested, they are not subsets.
HOWEVER, you will find that it is common for tires with a Nordic symbol to also have the Alpine symbol. Same with the M+S.
While the EU may agree with you that there might be a possibility for a Nordic only tire, but the reality is, tire manufacturers would design their Nordic tires to meet both, especially when there is fresh snow before it gets iced over. Since the EU Alpine test is a braking test (not either a braking or acceleration test), even somehow the tires were designed to be used only on ice, since it's a braking test, the studs will still bite into the snow media for increased braking force on the media.
Likewise, if you took a non-M+S UHP summer tire (like a Michelin PS4S) and put a winter compound on it, it's not going to meet the minimum requirements for the Alpine symbol. The large continuous tread blocks with limited siping will do it no favors accelerating and braking, even with a winter compound.
Back to nordic only, I personally can't think of a tire that would only pass the Nordic test and fail the Alpine test.
Even a studded rally tire is made for both surfaces,.
maybe if you stud a slick summer tire, that might fail the Alpine test.
The Michelin tires that cracked at 3 years weren't OEM. Subaru put Continental tires on as OEM, and they were like driving on grease. I swapped them out to the Michelin tires at 300 miles. The Michelin tires had much better road manners, but really poor UV resistance. My OEM experience with Continental has kept me wary of them.
My second, and current, Subaru came with Bridgestone tires that I really like. Good road manners, A ratings, and good UV resistance so far. That model wasn't available in the size for the minivan .
I have never had bad aftermarket Continental.
They always had very good dry/wet performance and their snow line up is always pretty much best product or second best on the market.
What's a PSS?
And I have also had many sets of Michelin tires since 1973, including a set of retreaded Michelin tires. The last set is the only batch that gave me trouble. Well, that's not exactly true. We had incipient tread separations on a set in 1984. It took a year to manifest to the point where they affected tire balance. We managed to get home, 500 miles across the desert before I had them replaced.
The absolute worst tires I've ever owned were made by Dunlop. I had nine of them, and all nine separated.
I just answered my own question, "What's a PSS?" We do so little driving that any brand of tire will outdate before it wears out. Yet I want the best possible performance for accident avoidance. Cost is seldom my main objective. If the PSS had been available to fit our minivan, I would have given it serious consideration. I know that a high performance tire on a minivan seems ridiculous. But I think it's critical.
PSS: Pilot Super Sport.
I think when it comes to tires on minivan, two contenders are above anything else:
Michelin LTX M/S2
Continental Terraincontact H/T
