Michelin Pilot Sport AS4

I had numerous “Central” European snow tires. Many are better in any given condition than Nordic tires. This became a thing lately. Generally “Central “ European tires are IMO more sophisticated and designed better. You have also numerous models sold as cheaper tires in markets in Germany, Slovenia, Austria etc. the Alps and southern Alps region where winter driving is actually more demanding than in Nordic countries due to elevation, huge temperature swings etc. Those tires generally are designed like “Nordic” style tires. Sava Eskimo S3+ would be example of a tire that has all attributes of Nordic tires. But pales compared to Continental TS series, Good Year UG etc. I had them all and these we have in the US. There is a reason why some Central European tires pack steep price.
It all comes down to the expected conditions. A nordic tyre is great for what it is intended: packed snow and ice and very low temperatures. Anything else, it sucks. A central european winter tyre needs to be much more well rounded - but this comes with a trade-off. Even if you have snow in central europe, it will often be rather wet, and at the latest after the snow plow came through and spread the corrosion accelerator, it will be slush. Slush ist more like aquaplaning on steroids, so you need to design the tyre profile around that. More and wider grooves will mean less rubber on the ground - and less sipes - which you would need for packed snow and ice.
Also, the rubber compound has to work over a wide range of temperatures - from -20 to +20°C. (Two weeks ago here in southern Germany we had a little more snow than usual, last week, temperatures were down to -12, and this week they are back up to +15°C during the day. You cannot change tyres weekly.)

I've only once had nordic tyres, and they were great for what they were designed for - I needed to get to work early in the morning before the snow plough reached our village, and most importantly I needed to climb out of the valley on a road that often had ice under the snow from car and trucks spinning their wheels. Nordic tyres were the only way I could comfortably do this - european winter tyres would have been nail-biting, or I would have had to resort to chains. A w123 300d has little weight over the rear wheels, so that was indeed challenging. (By contrast, my little Saab 90 did that same hill on old Michelin Alpin which were down to the wear marks just fine...)
But for anything else except snow and ice, the nordics were horrible. They were awful in the wet, and ridiculous in the dry. It was so bad, you could even call it funny. As if you were tripping over your own wear particles...

The nordic winter tyre is a specialist. If you expect to drive in above-freezing weather for more than a couple of days, it usually is the wrong choice. Heck even in Sweden some people choose central european winter tyres! (My parents used to lived in the south of Sweden - roughly halfway between Göteborg and Jönköping. That was southern enough but also inlands enough that winters were completely unpredictable: you could either get a mild winter barely around freezing with lots of rain, or you could have 1.5meters of snow continually from november to april. Coldest temperature we ever had was -27°C. Locals would consequently drive everything: some were on european winters, some on nordics, and some on nordics with studs. Rule of thumb: the closer you were from the highway, the more extreme the tyre choice. Highways used to get salt (and therefore slush), county and municipal roads did not.)

If it really came down to it, I would chain up if the conditions are so bad that even a WRX needs chains. But that would be truly icy conditions. And even then I'd be freaked out about the possibility of getting hit by a car when putting them on.

Chains are very annoying. It's no fun putting them on with frozen fingers, it's no fun tearing them off and cleaning them. It's no fun driving on them. Good to have, better to never to never need them.
Also, check clearance! There are several cars where you can only fit chains if they are equipped with the smallest rim/tyre combination. The Wheelwell itself usually isn't the problem, but suspension components. Check your operators manual to see if you can run chains with your specific wheels.
 
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That:
"Also, the rubber compound has to work over a wide range of temperatures - from -20 to +20°C. (Two weeks ago here in southern Germany we had a little more snow than usual, last week, temperatures were down to -12, and this week they are back up to +15°C during the day. You cannot change tyres weekly.)"

sounds like New England.

When arriving in MA almost 30 years ago from Poland the winter temperature swings (20C - 40F range) were something unexpected. 24 hour span is a stretch but give weather 48 hours and it is doable. While winter in Poland (I lived up north by Baltic Sea) could have temperature swings they were more gradual. And one winter vs next could be quite different (more snow, less snow, colder, warmer) but not as dynamic as NE.
The weather in Central Europe seem to be "New Englicised" recently.

Krzyś
 
Western and northern Germany has a lot of atlantic influence, in southern Germany the proximity to the Alps spices things up (has always been like this). Brandenburg and eastwards has much more of a stable, continental climate...

But as you describe New England, this makes it odd why you don't get central european tyres there, only scandinavian? Sounds like CE would be a much better fit?
 
It all comes down to the expected conditions. A nordic tyre is great for what it is intended: packed snow and ice and very low temperatures. Anything else, it sucks. A central european winter tyre needs to be much more well rounded - but this comes with a trade-off. Even if you have snow in central europe, it will often be rather wet, and at the latest after the snow plow came through and spread the corrosion accelerator, it will be slush. Slush ist more like aquaplaning on steroids, so you need to design the tyre profile around that. More and wider grooves will mean less rubber on the ground - and less sipes - which you would need for packed snow and ice.
Also, the rubber compound has to work over a wide range of temperatures - from -20 to +20°C. (Two weeks ago here in southern Germany we had a little more snow than usual, last week, temperatures were down to -12, and this week they are back up to +15°C during the day. You cannot change tyres weekly.)

I've only once had nordic tyres, and they were great for what they were designed for - I needed to get to work early in the morning before the snow plough reached our village, and most importantly I needed to climb out of the valley on a road that often had ice under the snow from car and trucks spinning their wheels. Nordic tyres were the only way I could comfortably do this - european winter tyres would have been nail-biting, or I would have had to resort to chains. A w123 300d has little weight over the rear wheels, so that was indeed challenging. (By contrast, my little Saab 90 did that same hill on old Michelin Alpin which were down to the wear marks just fine...)
But for anything else except snow and ice, the nordics were horrible. They were awful in the wet, and ridiculous in the dry. It was so bad, you could even call it funny. As if you were tripping over your own wear particles...

The nordic winter tyre is a specialist. If you expect to drive in above-freezing weather for more than a couple of days, it usually is the wrong choice. Heck even in Sweden some people choose central european winter tyres! (My parents used to lived in the south of Sweden - roughly halfway between Göteborg and Jönköping. That was southern enough but also inlands enough that winters were completely unpredictable: you could either get a mild winter barely around freezing with lots of rain, or you could have 1.5meters of snow continually from november to april. Coldest temperature we ever had was -27°C. Locals would consequently drive everything: some were on european winters, some on nordics, and some on nordics with studs. Rule of thumb: the closer you were from the highway, the more extreme the tyre choice. Highways used to get salt (and therefore slush), county and municipal roads did not.)



Chains are very annoying. It's no fun putting them on with frozen fingers, it's no fun tearing them off and cleaning them. It's no fun driving on them. Good to have, better to never to never need them.
Also, check clearance! There are several cars where you can only fit chains if they are equipped with the smallest rim/tyre combination. The Wheelwell itself usually isn't the problem, but suspension components. Check your operators manual to see if you can run chains with your specific wheels.

Nordic is the default in Canada, but in the future I think I will be looking for the central European or performance winter.

It was 6C yesterday with pouring rain, driving on the X-Ice Snow, the ABS was activating even in moderate braking. It caught me off guard quite a bit.

For me there is probably a handful of days a year, when heavy snow is falling which hasn't been cleared yet where Nordic would be best. However usually it's dry or slush.
 
Nordic is the default in Canada, but in the future I think I will be looking for the central European or performance winter.

It was 6C yesterday with pouring rain, driving on the X-Ice Snow, the ABS was activating even in moderate braking. It caught me off guard quite a bit.

For me there is probably a handful of days a year, when heavy snow is falling which hasn't been cleared yet where Nordic would be best. However usually it's dry or slush.
I have considered moving to a CC2 or WRG4 due to the last few years.
I mainly like the winter tires because of massive black ice at 4am when I go to work.. or on sundays when they dont salt much.
most other times its looks like a salt beach out on the roads nowadays.

However a separate set is nice when your tires get trashed and screwd in the same day.
Arrived home from Pittsburgh yesterday and put the winter tires on..
The yokos coming off 1 had a woodscrew another had this road trash.. some sort of bent stamped piece with a slot on 1 side.
1702916402581.jpg


Here are the michelin's after 1 season.. not very worn.. When its cold out they actually handle better than the all-terrains.. and hydroplane less in near freezing water.

Of course that can be deceiving I would never push them as hard in curves as the yokohama geolandar g015's..

1702916678699.jpg
 
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Nordic is the default in Canada, but in the future I think I will be looking for the central European or performance winter.

It was 6C yesterday with pouring rain, driving on the X-Ice Snow, the ABS was activating even in moderate braking. It caught me off guard quite a bit.

For me there is probably a handful of days a year, when heavy snow is falling which hasn't been cleared yet where Nordic would be best. However usually it's dry or slush.
There must be difference between the Snow and the Snow SUV then, because we had the same weather yesterday and I was out ripping around in the SRT and didn't have that experience at all.
 
There must be difference between the Snow and the Snow SUV then, because we had the same weather yesterday and I was out ripping around in the SRT and didn't have that experience at all.

More weight = more traction? This was in a 1200 kg car

The tires are a few weeks old. I liked them so much I got another set for the second car. Maybe it still has the mold release compound on it?

We'll see if it improves, but I definitely have to be more careful.
 
More weight = more traction? This was in a 1200 kg car

The tires are a few weeks old. I liked them so much I got another set for the second car. Maybe it still has the mold release compound on it?

We'll see if it improves, but I definitely have to be more careful.
Yeah, good point, that may very well be the case (mold release compound) as I remember mine being a little bit like that for the first few weeks when I had them installed. I'm on year 2 now, so have some decent mileage on them.
 
Mold release can be very funny. On the w123, I run Hankook Kinergy 4s2 (I do not intend to drive this car with salt on the road, but wheather near the Alps can be unpredictable. Possible to have three seasons within a 30 minute window. Once went from +15°C and clear, sunny sky to whiteout and back in 45 Minutes. After 5 minutes the snow was slush and after 30 minutes, it was gone. I don't want to be caught in something like this on pure summer tyres).
When I brought the car home, it was raining a bit. I was terrified. No grip whatsoever. Understeer and oversteer and everything! Roundabouts were especially scary, but Autobahn junctions and exits as well.
500km later, I find that the tyre actually is surprisingly good in the wet. Must be the release agent that finally wore off.
 
Western and northern Germany has a lot of atlantic influence, in southern Germany the proximity to the Alps spices things up (has always been like this). Brandenburg and eastwards has much more of a stable, continental climate...

But as you describe New England, this makes it odd why you don't get central european tyres there, only scandinavian? Sounds like CE would be a much better fit?
Good questions.

Maybe it is marking/naming issue?

Hard to sell "Scandinavian" and "Central European" tires in North America. They called them studless probably as a different from studded, not to mention studable - that is studded without studs :). CE winter tires got "performance winter" name as the sizes imported, and maybe original market, was for high performance mostly European cars.

It is hard sell to proclaim: your Honda Accord or Toyota Camry needs "performance winter tires". These are "grocery getters" and performance tires of any sort are last things their owners want.

Just IMHO.

Krzyś

PS Severe winter, mild winter tires would be more descriptive but they are named as they are named.
 
Nordic is the default in Canada, but in the future I think I will be looking for the central European or performance winter.

It was 6C yesterday with pouring rain, driving on the X-Ice Snow, the ABS was activating even in moderate braking. It caught me off guard quite a bit.

For me there is probably a handful of days a year, when heavy snow is falling which hasn't been cleared yet where Nordic would be best. However usually it's dry or slush.

Interesting - same conditions on my new X-Ice Snow and I was quite happy with their wet performance (coming from R2s). I am still feeling out the new tires and what to expect in different conditions, but so far so good.

I agree that in the Great Lakes area of Canada we sometimes need Nordic-style, but often it's simply too warm for them to do their best. All of our severe weather (again, Great Lakes / GTA) and heavy snow involves a warm front and near-freezing temps or even rain.
 
Just a quick update, but I went with CC2's. I have been VERY pleased with them!

60' times:
CC2 10/32 tread on dry concrete: 1.89s
PSAS4 4/32 tread on dry concrete: 1.89s (they pulled a lifetime best of 1.86, I believe, but averaged 1.87-1.91.).

CC2 on wet pavement, 10/32: 2.0s
PSAS4 5-6/32 on wet pavement: 2.03s

CC2 10/32 in snow: 2.95s (0-30 in 3.90s) managed a peak acceleration of 0.5g, lol!
PSAS4 not tested
 
Just a quick update, but I went with CC2's. I have been VERY pleased with them!

60' times:
CC2 10/32 tread on dry concrete: 1.89s
PSAS4 4/32 tread on dry concrete: 1.89s (they pulled a lifetime best of 1.86, I believe, but averaged 1.87-1.91.).

CC2 on wet pavement, 10/32: 2.0s
PSAS4 5-6/32 on wet pavement: 2.03s

CC2 10/32 in snow: 2.95s (0-30 in 3.90s) managed a peak acceleration of 0.5g, lol!
PSAS4 not tested
CC2 is not performance tire, and not sure what is point of comparing it to Pilot A/S4?
Acceleration in snow can mean anything. What kind of snow? Glazed snow? One where you can push car to slide with your hand while parked? 1” or 2”? Or snow I drove on Wednesday that has just been cleared on road and open after 4ft snowfall over the weekend?

In snow, non-performance tires will have better acceleration! I remember some 1/4 miles drag races where people would put snow tires on traction wheels as you don’t have to warm them up.

0-60 times don’t say anything about how tire will perform driving in every day life or on track (and CC2 will do BAD).
But, good to know your 0-60 times, again.
 
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CC2 is not performance tire, and not sure what is point of comparing it to Pilot A/S4?
Acceleration in snow can mean anything. What kind of snow? Glazed snow? One where you can push car to slide with your hand while parked? 1” or 2”? Or snow I drove on Wednesday that has just been cleared on road and open after 4ft snowfall over the weekend?

In snow, non-performance tires will have better acceleration! I remember some 1/4 miles drag races where people would put snow tires on traction wheels as you don’t have to warm them up.

0-60 times don’t say anything about how tire will perform driving in every day life or on track (and CC2 will do BAD).
But, good to know your 0-60 times, again.

1) CC2 is indeed not a performance tire. I can absolutely see it doing poorly if you get it hot, such as track duty, but for daily use, and in the rain, the grip is surprising.

2) The snow had fallen the day prior, and had had some limited traffic on it, but not been plowed. It was several (2-4) inches thick over the roadway. I'd say moderately compacted, but certainly not that kind where you can push the car around.

3) The CC2's actually have similar "pulling power" as a dedicated snow in the Autobild tests I've seen. I do know it made it up my driveway fine, which was impressive.

4) No, but acceleration from low speeds is the hardest trial this tire will face in MY use. That, and braking. I have not yet tested that. The PSAS4's managed 115ft/2.68 seconds in dry, cold weather (30's) from 60-0. In the rain, they managed 178ft/4.03 seconds in 70f weather.

I will test the CC2 braking once things warm up so that a comparable test can be done.
 
1) CC2 is indeed not a performance tire. I can absolutely see it doing poorly if you get it hot, such as track duty, but for daily use, and in the rain, the grip is surprising.

2) The snow had fallen the day prior, and had had some limited traffic on it, but not been plowed. It was several (2-4) inches thick over the roadway. I'd say moderately compacted, but certainly not that kind where you can push the car around.

3) The CC2's actually have similar "pulling power" as a dedicated snow in the Autobild tests I've seen. I do know it made it up my driveway fine, which was impressive.

4) No, but acceleration from low speeds is the hardest trial this tire will face in MY use. That, and braking. I have not yet tested that. The PSAS4's managed 115ft/2.68 seconds in dry, cold weather (30's) from 60-0. In the rain, they managed 178ft/4.03 seconds in 70f weather.

I will test the CC2 braking once things warm up so that a comparable test can be done.
A lot of people here have CC2 as some kind of band aid. A lot of people in the mountains don’t.
You can tell that to Auto Bild.
People interested in PS AS4 really don’t look at CC2. Same goes for DES06 that I have. They are excellent tire for what they are made for, but they ain’t snow tire, nor is CC2.
 
I have the PS AS4 and the X ice Xi3's for one car. I decided I was not going to put the snows on this year, and so we got about 2" this week. Using a light foot with my RWD car, I was fine. It's snowing again today but I don't need to drive. If it's going to continue to snow, I'll put on the snows. I don't want to if it's warm and the pavement is dry.

Prior to the PS AS4, the car came from a new car dealer (used car) with Rydanz Roadster R02's. They looked good but with the same 2", the car slipped and fishtailed. In such an unscientific observation, I can't conclude the AS4's are good enough for light snow, but seems they are. X ice has been 9" no problem. More I have not experienced but the car in general could have a clearance issue.
 
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A lot of people here have CC2 as some kind of band aid. A lot of people in the mountains don’t.
You can tell that to Auto Bild.
People interested in PS AS4 really don’t look at CC2. Same goes for DES06 that I have. They are excellent tire for what they are made for, but they ain’t snow tire, nor is CC2.
CC2s perform mid pack with actual snow tires. Not as good as the best current, but about mid pack with past generation snow tires.
 
I have the PS AS4 and the X ice Xi3's for one car. I decided I was not going to put the snows on this year, and so we got about 2" this week. Using a light foot with my RWD car, I was fine. It's snowing again today but I don't need to drive. If it's going to continue to snow, I'll put on the snows. I don't want to if it's warm and the pavement is dry.

Prior to the PS AS4, the car came from a new car dealer (used car) with Rydanz Roadster R02's. They looked good but with the same 2", the car slipped and fishtailed. In such an unscientific observation, I can't conclude the AS4's are good enough for light snow, but seems they are. X ice has been 9" no problem. More I have not experienced but the car in general could have a clearance issue.
There is no workaround snow tires. One thing is to get away with it, another to actually drive in snow extended period of time.
A lot of people here, because of bipolar climate in Front Range, think they can get away with AS4, DWS06 or all weather tires. I know one guy who liked to say how he managed 80mph with DWS06 through 2” of snow. He doesn’t own same car anymore for obvious reason.
It is good financial proposition, and especially with all weather tires, one can make the case that commuting 4-5mls to work one might get away with it.
However, bcs. life happens, and people like to visit mountains, they often get in serious trouble. If I had penny for every vehicle that got stuck or couldn’t navigate Hoosier Pass, Berthoud Pass or Loveland Pass, with tires like CC2, it would be enough for good beer.

Tires like AS4, DWS06 or Potenza Sport AS, are good for that transition period, if life can be organized in such way through winter too, especially in certain parts of country. Cc2, WeatherPeak etc. can get you through winter, conditionally everywhere. But, conditionally.
 
CC2s perform mid pack with actual snow tires. Not as good as the best current, but about mid pack with past generation snow tires.
I drove CC2 in mountains here in snow. If someone offered me for free, I would ask: how much for snow tire, any snow tire.
20+ years ago I had Hakook 300W snow tires. Those were by far the worst snow tires I have ever owned (and I owned probably 50+ snow tire sets). I would take them over CC2 in real winters.
CC2 is “muddling through “ tire. In certain parts of country they are all people need in winter (not sure I would like that in summer in those parts of country, minus Bay Area or PNW). It is jack of all trades, even more so than all season tires.
With all that performance you like to throw around here about you car, it is mind boggling having CC2 in summer heat.
But, it is cheaper.
 
There is no workaround snow tires. One thing is to get away with it, another to actually drive in snow extended period of time.
A lot of people here, because of bipolar climate in Front Range, think they can get away with AS4, DWS06 or all weather tires. I know one guy who liked to say how he managed 80mph with DWS06 through 2” of snow. He doesn’t own same car anymore for obvious reason.
It is good financial proposition, and especially with all weather tires, one can make the case that commuting 4-5mls to work one might get away with it.
However, bcs. life happens, and people like to visit mountains, they often get in serious trouble. If I had penny for every vehicle that got stuck or couldn’t navigate Hoosier Pass, Berthoud Pass or Loveland Pass, with tires like CC2, it would be enough for good beer.

Tires like AS4, DWS06 or Potenza Sport AS, are good for that transition period, if life can be organized in such way through winter too, especially in certain parts of country. Cc2, WeatherPeak etc. can get you through winter, conditionally everywhere. But, conditionally.
You are correct. Imagine if a person goes skiing. They really are needed.

I felt when driving on snow packed side streets this week, that the proper tires are in my shed. But I still want to get away with it, because it's a real sacrifice too, on top of wearing the snow tires out, if it's just warm and no snow. I think snows perform badly in rain. I guess one reason for my irrational decision is on both cars, the snows are skinnier than the summers, making their performance better in snow, and worse in no snow, when compared to the summer tires.
 
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