Message to computer geeks...

[Alfred_B]

Software engineering is a discipline of engineering as much as mechanical (and electrical) engineering that designs, builds and operates a locomotive.

Worked in IT for a couple of decades in all kinds of roles and not a single person referred to themselves as "software engineer". It was nowhere in the HR documents either. And yes, it included for positions where certifications were required. Software engineers simply are not in a habit of calling themselves "engineers". Maybe it's an old fashioned label that's why.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
A lot of geeks seem to think they have mad skills.
They don't.

This is the difference between "software engineers" and real engineers.


Hmmm, software engineers aren't real engineers? Care to explain?


Did you take three courses of real (not watered down) calculus? Have you taken real differential equation and linear algebra instruction?

The reality is that amongst real engineering disciplines, the maths solve the same way to define the phenomena of the world around you. What of that is actually depicted in sw?

The mathematics of how SW is coded to gain numerical assessments of complex calculations, and estimates of solutions is incredibly fascinating. But most SW engineers dont actually understand the actual premise of coding and what it means in terms of an explanation of the physical world around them. I think that's sort of the point.

I equate software engineering to systems engineering for physical equipment and systems of systems. More principle than harnessing physics.


We had to do this for my CS degree. It was part of the School of Engineering in my university.

If you were pursing a CS degree, you had to complete Calculus in 2 semesters, not the 3 semesters given the Arts and Sciences students to cover the same material. Your third semester of Math of DiffyQ. Then Engineering Probability.

Not to mention the Chemistry and Physics requirements. Your first two years were largely filled with that, plus some entry level CS courses. And since I was a bit of a masochist, I was also majoring in Electrical Engineering, so I had entry level EE courses and ROTC to cover.

In some ways, I think pre-meds had it easier than engineering students. Well, until it came to Bio and Organic Chem.

 

[javacontour]

To be fair, engineer is an overloaded term.

While I have two engineering degrees, I don't do much, if any design. I'm more on the implementation side of things.

Not that I couldn't, the design and coding side of things is not my cup of tea.

But I taught Java, shell programming, Solaris, Networking, Fault Analysis for Sun back when people still went to instructor lead training.

I work as a Systems Support Engineer now.

One day I might be working on an SL8500 tape library as big as your garage with robots running around in there that can knock you out should you get locked the in library when it's operating.

The next, I might be working on an M7 SuperCluster or an Exadata. Using networking and/or database skills or all of the above.

My engineering degrees give me a good foundation for this work.

But I admit, the guy who went to tech school is called the same thing I'm called, engineer.

And I'm ok with that. I like what I do. I like installing and fixing things.

I just happen to be the guy my boss goes to when there is a difficult issue. Not because the other guys are dumb. It's because I have a few more talents and more depth due to both education and experience.

I don't know if that makes me an engineer or not. As I said, it's an overloaded term.

I did design work just before and just after I got out of the Army. It was a job.

Today, my job comes with a window office. It may just be the windows in my car, but I meet people, not stuck in the same cube farm everyday, and the challenge changes on a daily if not hourly basis.

That's the life for me

 

[Alfred_B]

Yeah, you are an engineer:

Engineering is the application of mathematics, as well as scientific, economic, social, and practical knowledge in order to invent, innovate, design, build, maintain, research, and improve structures, machines, tools, systems, components, materials, processes, solutions, and organizations.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
A lot of geeks seem to think they have mad skills.
They don't.

This is the difference between "software engineers" and real engineers.


Hmmm, software engineers aren't real engineers? Care to explain?


Did you take three courses of real (not watered down) calculus? Have you taken real differential equation and linear algebra instruction?

The reality is that amongst real engineering disciplines, the maths solve the same way to define the phenomena of the world around you. What of that is actually depicted in sw?

The mathematics of how SW is coded to gain numerical assessments of complex calculations, and estimates of solutions is incredibly fascinating. But most SW engineers dont actually understand the actual premise of coding and what it means in terms of an explanation of the physical world around them. I think that's sort of the point.

I equate software engineering to systems engineering for physical equipment and systems of systems. More principle than harnessing physics.


We had to do this for my CS degree. It was part of the School of Engineering in my university.


Yup, it was part of my CS curriculum as well. Your CS program sounds similar to the one I was in. First two years were math heavy with entry level CS stuff, we learned Java for example. I took C++ as well early on as a summer course because I didn't go to Ontario that year. It was that experience that revealed to me that I didn't want to be doing programming, LOL

 

[JeepWJ19]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Yup, it was part of my CS curriculum as well. Your CS program sounds similar to the one I was in. First two years were math heavy with entry level CS stuff, we learned Java for example. I took C++ as well early on as a summer course because I didn't go to Ontario that year. It was that experience that revealed to me that I didn't want to be doing programming, LOL

You don't like C++? Not many do but I like it. I don't understand why, but I've heard of people taking programming classes (like for mis classes) and they have them doing C++. What an awful language for beginners.

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Yup, it was part of my CS curriculum as well. Your CS program sounds similar to the one I was in. First two years were math heavy with entry level CS stuff, we learned Java for example. I took C++ as well early on as a summer course because I didn't go to Ontario that year. It was that experience that revealed to me that I didn't want to be doing programming, LOL

You don't like C++? Not many do but I like it. I don't understand why, but I've heard of people taking programming classes (like for mis classes) and they have them doing C++. What an awful language for beginners.


I took C++ in high-school. Also in college. Guess where I knew what I was doing?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Yup, it was part of my CS curriculum as well. Your CS program sounds similar to the one I was in. First two years were math heavy with entry level CS stuff, we learned Java for example. I took C++ as well early on as a summer course because I didn't go to Ontario that year. It was that experience that revealed to me that I didn't want to be doing programming, LOL

You don't like C++? Not many do but I like it. I don't understand why, but I've heard of people taking programming classes (like for mis classes) and they have them doing C++. What an awful language for beginners.


Actually, I liked C++ a lot more than I liked Java, it at least felt like a useful language, LOL. It was taking CS in general that indicated to me that this was not the route I wished to pursue as a career.

 

[SirTanon]

Somehow, this whole "Software engineers aren't real engineers" argument made me think of this...

 

[javacontour]

I'm sure there is plenty of criticism to go around.

I've serviced some gear that left me scratching my head as to what the design team was thinking when they designed it.

Probably for easy of assembly or to fit a certain size requirement.

Some of the Telco versions of our servers are the worst to service. Let's take something that is reasonably modular and make it not modular and then bolt it into a four post rack without slide rails. That way, the engineer who is on-site, alone at 3am can't work on it if he can't find a switch tech willing to help get it out of the rack.

Sometimes, I think design engineers have an easier job. They have months or years to design and implement something. I usually get hours to figure out why it won't work and fix it

So I often have to figure out what the design geniuses did during all of that time and then craft a solution to what ails the box.

There are a few systems where I'd like to bring the engineers along with me when I'm servicing the machine and ask them why.

Like why did they put all of the 1U high switches and servers together in an Exadata or other engineered solutions rack? Let's put a mass of cables in the most densely populated portion of the rack.

(And I just spent the last 15 minutes writing up a proposed new rack scheme for this product

)

 

[JeepWJ19]

I'm sure most engineers could design the best thing ever that is super really easy to work on but use the highest quality parts if they didn't have a budget and weren't given [censored] parts and told to make them work; all in a short span of like 6 months