Message to computer geeks...

[JeepWJ19]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Some people think bowling is a sport. Some people think sociology is a science. Some people think coding is engineering.

Some people think drawing a bracket in CAD is engineering...
Some people think connecting lines between connector pictures or picking wire numbers in Pro E is engineering...

There's "code monkeys" and there's "CAD jockeys". Both not engineering.

 

[JeepWJ19]

Originally Posted By: Garak

I remember with my old F-150 when I had a heater core leak. On the LTD it was a major chore to replace it. So, I was prepared for the worst in the F-150, and asked for a hand, since we were both playing around in the garage. He very quickly and pointedly advised me that I don't need any help, just go take a look, and you'll need just a ratchet, a screwdriver, and maybe 15 minutes.


That is problem solving and building independence!

 

[Andrew1972]

What does this thread have to do with computer geeks? If does not require a "computer geek" to use the internet.

 

[Dyusik]

I'm not defending the little [censored], but she probably forgot to replace a Gerber can with a can of whopass.

 

[Dave Sherman]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Sure.
Real engineers have recognized professional qualifications.
Software "engineers" don't.
Show me someone who calls themselves a software "engineer" who can put PE or ME or LE after their name and I'll admit to being wrong.


Electrical engineer here, although I mostly do embedded software and hardware now. I'm a PE.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
That is problem solving and building independence!

Back in the early 1990s, a computer science PhD candidate was a friend of mine. We were talking about another friend, who was in the dual major EE/CS degree program. My PhD buddy mentioned that the EE/CS guy had to supervise the CS lab at night. I asked him what the heck he'd possibly have to do there. He replied that he was there so if someone had a paper jam, someone could tell him, and then he could reply, "That's nice," and go back to reading his book.

 

[JeepWJ19]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
That is problem solving and building independence!

Back in the early 1990s, a computer science PhD candidate was a friend of mine. We were talking about another friend, who was in the dual major EE/CS degree program. My PhD buddy mentioned that the EE/CS guy had to supervise the CS lab at night. I asked him what the heck he'd possibly have to do there. He replied that he was there so if someone had a paper jam, someone could tell him, and then he could reply, "That's nice," and go back to reading his book.

Funny! Depending on how far back this was, they could be for punch cards which was what original software programs were basically written on for machine instruction.

My computer engineering professor once told that while he was getting his PhD at UMBC, someone was carrying their project (a huge box of punch cards) and somehow dropped them. If you know anything about punch cards, the order of machine instruction is important. I believe he said the student attempted suicide as his project was basically ruined.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19


Funny! Depending on how far back this was, they could be for punch cards which was what original software programs were basically written on for machine instruction.

My computer engineering professor once told that while he was getting his PhD at UMBC, someone was carrying their project (a huge box of punch cards) and somehow dropped them. If you know anything about punch cards, the order of machine instruction is important. I believe he said the student attempted suicide as his project was basically ruined.


Funny and not at the same time.

I was a batch clerk as my work-study job in college. (Working on a dual EE and CS degrees)

I ran card decks and burst output from the printer.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
Funny! Depending on how far back this was, they could be for punch cards which was what original software programs were basically written on for machine instruction.

One Masters computer scientist I knew was brought up on punch cards, and was very picky about coding protocols, for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[LoneRanger]

I had a nickel for every time our unit has had a senior call in to report they fell for the Tech Support Phone Scam and actually gave out their card or banking info over the phone.... well, I'd have quite a few nickels. While it is certainly true that many older folk are completely competent and comfortable with PC/Laptop/Tablet/phone operations and online activity, I believe equally as many or more are incompetent in cyber ops.

 

[fdcg27]

You seem kinda sensitive about not being considered a real engineer.
That's okay, because if your creds really are all that, you're making real engineer money and you can laugh at the skeptics.
If what you're doing is no more than what experienced users can do, then no, you aren't anything like a real engineer.
A lot of network folk survive on the administrator's password block and the ignorance of many users.
They bring no value to the table, spend little time actually working and since they're usually hourly employees and not management they can get paid swell overtime by crashing a system.
I've actually seen this done and it blew my mind that nobody else in management could figure it out.
We should have at least requested a forensic review by better qualified folks before letting her "rebuild" (a geekish term for reinstalling the original software load) before allowing her to touch it.

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You seem kinda sensitive about not being considered a real engineer.
That's okay, because if your creds really are all that, you're making real engineer money and you can laugh at the skeptics.
If what you're doing is no more than what experienced users can do, then no, you aren't anything like a real engineer.
A lot of network folk survive on the administrator's password block and the ignorance of many users.
They bring no value to the table, spend little time actually working and since they're usually hourly employees and not management they can get paid swell overtime by crashing a system.
I've actually seen this done and it blew my mind that nobody else in management could figure it out.
We should have at least requested a forensic review by better qualified folks before letting her "rebuild" (a geekish term for reinstalling the original software load) before allowing her to touch it.


Now, now, come on....

You take on an entire industry/job because you personally know a slacker?

Then I saw slackers (well paid) as engineers too.... and also some really sharp guys... straight out of college too...

Would you say the same let's say about Javacontour? (30+ years experience, SUN certified, ....)

I like what I'm doing (even the very dirty moments: supporting 3 manufacturing plants). And I can always add "rocket scientist"

 

[JeepWJ19]

I'm not sensitive at all.

You originated by saying SEs aren't real engineers. I asked you to explain. You said certs define an engineering discipline. I showed the certs, something you said didn't exist for SE.

I can't help you're wrong.

And despite all my evidence vs the others with vague verbiage and trite sayings, this is your response?

I'm sorry you couldn't conjure up anything more meaningful than saying I'm getting sensitive, which I'm not.

Notice how no one has answered my questions?
They're back on page 1 in response to the user with the vague quote from someone who did computing stuff forever ago.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Some people think bowling is a sport. Some people think sociology is a science. Some people think coding is engineering.

I code (interpreted languages: javascript, PHP; basic LAMP stack stuff). My brother in law codes, too; in C, C#, even some Assembly. Software Engineers are yet still a strata above that. Whomever thinks software engineering is simple "coding" is just another person ignorantly typing words on the internet, which is easy; eg. "I am the King of Spain" or "I can fly".

JeepWJ19, these folks *honestly* don't have a clue what a SE does. I don't think they're trying to be abrasive; but they probably cannot abstract "web developer" from "software developer" or "systems administrator" from "software engineer". And, as is usually the case with anonymous internet know-it-alls, they're positive they're right because they're them and that's all it takes for them to be convinced they're right. :^)

 

[JeepWJ19]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more


I code (interpreted languages: javascript, PHP; basic LAMP stack stuff). My brother in law codes, too; in C, C#, even some Assembly. Software Engineers are yet still a strata above that. Whomever thinks software engineering is simple "coding" is just another person ignorantly typing words on the internet, which is easy; eg. "I am the King of Spain" or "I can fly".

JeepWJ19, these folks *honestly* don't have a clue what a SE does. I don't think they're trying to be abrasive; but they probably cannot abstract "web developer" from "software developer" or "systems administrator" from "software engineer". And, as is usually the case with anonymous internet know-it-alls, they're positive they're right because they're them and that's all it takes for them to be convinced they're right. :^)


I do not wish PHP on anyone lol :]. Not a personal fan on Web Development as far as languages, though I admit it [web development] is absolutely the future. Python is really the only interpreted language I am fluent at (minus the thousands and thousands of packages). Upon the list of languages I know, for some reason I have been getting an itch to learn LISP. It attracted me when a couple of buddies of mine were using LISP for an artificial intelligence project they were working on.

They could get a clue what SE does if they'd just click the darn links for IEEE and NCEES that I have provided. At least that's a start. I always have plenty of books to suggest to read as well. No excuses :]

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
... Upon the list of languages I know, for some reason I have been getting an itch to learn LISP. It attracted me when a couple of buddies of mine were using LISP for an artificial intelligence project they were working on...

LISP....
That brought back some memories....

 

[NGRhodes]

Coding is the act of writing code, software engineering covers the whole software development lifecycle, from working with the customer to develop requirements right through to deliver/deployment, writing code is only one of many tasks a software engineer does.

One of the reasons I like Perl is the ability to use a lot of functional programming paradigms that LISP has, LISP is on my bucket list of programming languages to try.
I like Python also, I like it for data processing and writing simple web services (flask + SQLalchemy is a great combo).
PHP, I sometimes have to use it, flawed and frustrating, I use it with a decent framework when I can to avoid most of the flaws and frustrations.
I spent 7 years fulltime writing in C# and .net and a bit of C++ (I did everything from web-dev to integrating virus scan engines to fixing card reader software), but grew to prefer Linux/open source development.
Currently writing a lot of Perl on old, but well written systems. My main tasks are working with internal and external pen testers to get our many systems and applications as secure as possible.
I consider myself a Systems and Software Engineer, I am qualified as a Computer Scientist and could get a certified engineer label (same as a PE in USA).

 

[jeepman3071]

I've seen this across many different professions, not just technology.

The bottom line is people are insecure and feel they can 1-up you by throwing things at you they assume you don't understand.

I see it all the time from:

-People who memorize sports stats
-Any technical field
-Lawyers
-Salesman
-Finance
-Mechanics
-Politicians
-Internet forum keyboard gangsters

Don't let it bother you. I usually find these people are intelligent in one particular thing, but have absolutely no social skills or knowledge about anything else. They also have no friends or spend most of their time honing their skills and thinking of ways to belittle others.

I once worked with a guy a few years younger than me who was a computer geek. Like servers in his basement and hacking into stuff all the time at 20 years old type of geek. He was very intelligent, but was a pathological liar and had no social skills. It didn't matter how smart he was, everyone who worked there hated him and he left after 1 year.

It may sound corny, but I feel sharing knowledge is just as important as having it.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
A lot of geeks seem to think they have mad skills.
They don't.

This is the difference between "software engineers" and real engineers.


Hmmm, software engineers aren't real engineers? Care to explain?


Did you take three courses of real (not watered down) calculus? Have you taken real differential equation and linear algebra instruction?

The reality is that amongst real engineering disciplines, the maths solve the same way to define the phenomena of the world around you. What of that is actually depicted in sw?

The mathematics of how SW is coded to gain numerical assessments of complex calculations, and estimates of solutions is incredibly fascinating. But most SW engineers dont actually understand the actual premise of coding and what it means in terms of an explanation of the physical world around them. I think that's sort of the point.

I equate software engineering to systems engineering for physical equipment and systems of systems. More principle than harnessing physics.

 

[JeepWJ19]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


Did you take three courses of real (not watered down) calculus? Have you taken real differential equation and linear algebra instruction?



Is it even possible to obtain an SE degree without these courses? I personally had to take them.

Calc 1-3, Diff EQ, Statistics for Engineering disciplines, Linear Algebra, Discrete Mathematics