Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Yeah, sure, it is probably more uniform than a Group III,
Not probably,
it is. And as a bonus to this molecular uniformity, it's also an order of magnitude cleaner feedstock.
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but it is still made from earth produced products.
Every element chemists use are all here on Earth. Synthetic doesn't mean extraterrestrial.
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What the stuff is made from, be it mineral petroleum or natural gas, if certain methods are used, they technically are synthetics.
Certain methods like the F-T method? Yes
Like hydroprocessing the filthiest of crude? Nope.
Creating CO and H2 for syngas, out of something like coal, is more resource intensive and has a poorer CO-H2 ratio than natural gas- it relies heavily on the water-gas shift reaction as a source of hydrogen, but comes at the cost of CO (reducing yield). Natural gas provides the near-perfect ratios of CO-H2, requiring little to no water-gas shift correction than other petroleum feeds, and with the added bonus of being purer and not requiring a catalyst to partially oxidize the CH4 into syngas. But even still coal derived F-T oils, IMO, are technically synthetic, unlike GrIII hydroprocessed bases. The common denominator being the F-T process.
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Why anyone wastes time worrying about whether a group III is not a synthetic tells more about them than the oil itself.
What difference would it make trying to determine something for which the definition has been disregarded? Entirely disregarding the performance aspects of the base oils, the contention I have with this blatant misnomer is that it's used for the purposes of suggesting to (deceiving) the consumer that the product they are purchasing, was created using some exotic process at least twice as costly as for GrII oils. It was the case at one point in history, but now is just straight bollocks. At least PAO and Ester based lubes, while not the end all and be all, and while not suitable or necessary for many applications, at least retail closer to the cost to produce them. SO why would anyone defend gouging behavior, and vilify the regular, non-lobbyist people that point the disparity out? That doesn't make any sense.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Why anyone wastes time worrying about whether a group III is not a synthetic tells more about them than the oil itself.
Hehe, what this is supposed to mean? What does it tell you about 'them'?
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
As a chemist I just shake my head in sadness everytime I hear arguments like this. Other topics like organic, all natural, how the word "chemical" scares people, etc.
The grouping of the oils makes sense (Group I, II, III, IV, and V). However, it is the misuse of the word "Synthetic" to try and define any of these groups where people get in trouble.
The misuse of the work "Synthetic" as a marketing term by both sides of the argument makes me sick at the lack of chemical education in the world such as when people asking and argue about "True Synthetics." It is much better to describe an oil as containing oil from the different groups than to bash around the word "Synthetic."
Well, as a chemist, we'd love to hear your feedback on specific points that you have contention with; feel free to lambaste me for any inaccuracies. Can't learn otherwise.
I agree with you, that most oils are blends of many chemistries, nobody disputes that. However most oils are also primarily based on one Group of base oil- maybe two in equal parts at the most. Name one finished product that is close to an equal ratio of all the groups...? I'm not sure where your anger and 'sickness' is directed to. You seem to be subjectively insulting both side
Originally Posted By: Garak
I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Walmart and Canadian Tire. Smaller retailers that I know try to keep margins on motor oil at about 10% to 15% and tend to have better regular pricing than WM or CT.
Oh those retailers!! Don't get me started. $50+ dollars for a jug of M1 at CT is INSANE. ABSOLUTELY INSANE. Who's MSRP are THEY operating off of!? I could get 5 quarts of Redline for about the same price of a jug of M1-- at the same Canadian Tire!!! YET PEOPLE STILL BUY M1@$50+ ANYWAYS BECAUSE THEY HAVE
NO IDEA HOW BADLY THEY'RE BEING GOUGED!
My contention is that GIII, IV, and V all go through various chemical reactions (i.e. synthesis!) to make them into their final chemical structure. I do not understand why one chemical reaction is considered more "synthetic" than another one. I understand there are differences between the properties and chemical makeup of the different groups. But still, III, IV, and V are not just pumped out of the ground, purified and put into the oil bottle. They must be chemically modified to reach the chemical form in the bottle. That is all. GIII, IV, and V are all synthetic products.
I make no statements about which one of the groups is better/worse.
