Many Synthetic Oils on Market are Conventional Oil

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Yeah, sure, it is probably more uniform than a Group III,


Not probably, it is. And as a bonus to this molecular uniformity, it's also an order of magnitude cleaner feedstock.
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but it is still made from earth produced products.

Every element chemists use are all here on Earth. Synthetic doesn't mean extraterrestrial.

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What the stuff is made from, be it mineral petroleum or natural gas, if certain methods are used, they technically are synthetics.


Certain methods like the F-T method? Yes
Like hydroprocessing the filthiest of crude? Nope.

Creating CO and H2 for syngas, out of something like coal, is more resource intensive and has a poorer CO-H2 ratio than natural gas- it relies heavily on the water-gas shift reaction as a source of hydrogen, but comes at the cost of CO (reducing yield). Natural gas provides the near-perfect ratios of CO-H2, requiring little to no water-gas shift correction than other petroleum feeds, and with the added bonus of being purer and not requiring a catalyst to partially oxidize the CH4 into syngas. But even still coal derived F-T oils, IMO, are technically synthetic, unlike GrIII hydroprocessed bases. The common denominator being the F-T process.


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Why anyone wastes time worrying about whether a group III is not a synthetic tells more about them than the oil itself.


What difference would it make trying to determine something for which the definition has been disregarded? Entirely disregarding the performance aspects of the base oils, the contention I have with this blatant misnomer is that it's used for the purposes of suggesting to (deceiving) the consumer that the product they are purchasing, was created using some exotic process at least twice as costly as for GrII oils. It was the case at one point in history, but now is just straight bollocks. At least PAO and Ester based lubes, while not the end all and be all, and while not suitable or necessary for many applications, at least retail closer to the cost to produce them. SO why would anyone defend gouging behavior, and vilify the regular, non-lobbyist people that point the disparity out? That doesn't make any sense.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

Why anyone wastes time worrying about whether a group III is not a synthetic tells more about them than the oil itself.

Hehe, what this is supposed to mean? What does it tell you about 'them'?

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
As a chemist I just shake my head in sadness everytime I hear arguments like this. Other topics like organic, all natural, how the word "chemical" scares people, etc.

The grouping of the oils makes sense (Group I, II, III, IV, and V). However, it is the misuse of the word "Synthetic" to try and define any of these groups where people get in trouble.

The misuse of the work "Synthetic" as a marketing term by both sides of the argument makes me sick at the lack of chemical education in the world such as when people asking and argue about "True Synthetics." It is much better to describe an oil as containing oil from the different groups than to bash around the word "Synthetic."


Well, as a chemist, we'd love to hear your feedback on specific points that you have contention with; feel free to lambaste me for any inaccuracies. Can't learn otherwise. I agree with you, that most oils are blends of many chemistries, nobody disputes that. However most oils are also primarily based on one Group of base oil- maybe two in equal parts at the most. Name one finished product that is close to an equal ratio of all the groups...? I'm not sure where your anger and 'sickness' is directed to. You seem to be subjectively insulting both side

Originally Posted By: Garak
I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Walmart and Canadian Tire. Smaller retailers that I know try to keep margins on motor oil at about 10% to 15% and tend to have better regular pricing than WM or CT.


Oh those retailers!! Don't get me started. $50+ dollars for a jug of M1 at CT is INSANE. ABSOLUTELY INSANE. Who's MSRP are THEY operating off of!? I could get 5 quarts of Redline for about the same price of a jug of M1-- at the same Canadian Tire!!! YET PEOPLE STILL BUY M1@$50+ ANYWAYS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW BADLY THEY'RE BEING GOUGED!

My contention is that GIII, IV, and V all go through various chemical reactions (i.e. synthesis!) to make them into their final chemical structure. I do not understand why one chemical reaction is considered more "synthetic" than another one. I understand there are differences between the properties and chemical makeup of the different groups. But still, III, IV, and V are not just pumped out of the ground, purified and put into the oil bottle. They must be chemically modified to reach the chemical form in the bottle. That is all. GIII, IV, and V are all synthetic products.

I make no statements about which one of the groups is better/worse.


Perhaps its chemical reaction dependent.
The F-T process is quite different than hydrocracking,and therefore the end product can also be quite different.

 

[weasley]

Let's also get some facts straight about the groups. Group IV is defined as PAO, so is synthetic whichever way you look at it. Group III is defined by VI, saturates and sulfur content and so can theoretically come from any source, but in practice comes from severely hydrocracked mineral oil. This is described as synthetic in most of the world (following a ruling by the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus, not because of any court case, lawsuit or any other mythical legal proceeding).

Finally group V. I keep seeing group V referred to as synthetic. It isn't. Group V is defined as anything not in groups I to IV. Thus it includes some synthetics (eg esters, polyglycols etc) but also includes some non-synthetic products, such as naphthenic and aromatic mineral oils or even castor oil. There is no catch-all term to describe group V except "everything else".

 

[Hyde244]

What matters more - whether an oil is synthetic or conventional, or knowing it is able to properly protect your engine during a longer OCI?

I could care less about the oil molecules, as long as they are able to protect my engine during a 7k OCI.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Clevy


Perhaps its chemical reaction dependent.
The F-T process is quite different than hydrocracking,and therefore the end product can also be quite different.


Exactly. It's simply the difference between refining and synthesis. It should not be difficult.


Originally Posted By: Hyde244
What matters more - whether an oil is synthetic or conventional, or knowing it is able to properly protect your engine during a longer OCI?


What really matters to me is, "am I really buying what is being sold to me?"
FTR I use GrIII based oils, and have no problem doing so.

Originally Posted By: weasley
Group III is defined by VI, saturates and sulfur content and so can theoretically come from any source, but in practice comes from severely hydrocracked mineral oil


Lifted from ML:
"Although made from crude oil, Group III base oils are sometimes described as synthesized hydrocarbons."

F-T oils are NOT GrIII.

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(following a ruling by the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus, not because of any court case, lawsuit or any other mythical legal proceeding).

This is why the "S" word is so controversial right now. All because of some marketing group that knows ZERO about oil chemistry. They don't have to put up with that [censored] in Europe.

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Finally group V. I keep seeing group V referred to as synthetic. It isn't. Group V is defined as anything not in groups I to IV. Thus it includes some synthetics (eg esters, polyglycols etc) but also includes some non-synthetic products, such as naphthenic and aromatic mineral oils or even castor oil. There is no catch-all term to describe group V except "everything else".


Agreed.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
As a chemist I just shake my head in sadness everytime I hear arguments like this. Other topics like organic, all natural, how the word "chemical" scares people, etc.

The grouping of the oils makes sense (Group I, II, III, IV, and V). However, it is the misuse of the word "Synthetic" to try and define any of these groups where people get in trouble.

The misuse of the work "Synthetic" as a marketing term by both sides of the argument makes me sick at the lack of chemical education in the world such as when people asking and argue about "True Synthetics." It is much better to describe an oil as containing oil from the different groups than to bash around the word "Synthetic."

Oh well. Time to get off my soap box.


Preach on, Brotha!


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This is why the "S" word is so controversial right now. All because of some marketing group that knows ZERO about oil chemistry. They don't have to put up with that [censored] in Europe.


Consider this. Why would Mobil bring this synthetix vs non-synthetic topic re: Castrol before the business community?

Why not bring the issue before the American Chemistry Council or some other Chemically astute body that would have knowledge of chemical synthesis?

My theory: If Mobil lost (as they knew they would) this would give Mobil and others the green light to use any other base oil group with GroupIV and V and call their formulations, "Synthetics."

I may p**s off Mobil, but their patents regarding using GroupIII and ANs predate the BBB fiasco.

 

[pscholte]

In the past I might have engaged in this debate and I understand that to those of you to whom this still matters....it STILL MATTERS. I have decided that I do prefer non-conventional (not unconventional) oils but beyond that show me the performance specs and the approvals and I will decide based on that not on whether an oil is Group 3, 4, or 5.

 

[regal55]

As a Che I like GrpIII, III+ beacuse they are still petroleum. What ends the life of an engine typically before anything else are leaks. Working with the auto industry nothing is as important as history, just cause an OEM paid a lab to show all their seals and gaskets are full synthetic approved doesn't mean much. The chemistry of a polar base stock never resonated with me, gaskets, seals, and hydroscopic. Its counter intuitive for use in anything but a race engine that gets torn down once a year. Acception would be something like GC 0w30 where the blend has been worked for years. But these small oil marketers with their polar base stocks seem like a bad idea for a dd.

 

[MolaKule]

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The chemistry of a polar base stock never resonated with me, gaskets, seals, and hydroscopic.


Do some study on motor oils.

Even unadditized GroupI and II mineral oils have polar components, mostly due to the natural sulfur inherent in these oils.

So all oils have to have some polar content for many reasons.

 

[kschachn]

Because it is marketing after all. Once a bottle of oil is sitting on a shelf with the word "synthetic" on it, it's only marketing at that point. Is it not?

And really the bottom line is performance. Do you think today's synthetix Mobil 1 is really, really worse than the old "all PAO" version (if that even existed)? ExxonMobil claims their current product is better in key aspects, including those which matter to most users.


Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Consider this. Why would Mobil bring this synthetix vs non-synthetic topic re: Castrol before the business community?

Why not bring the issue before the American Chemistry Council or some other Chemically astute body that would have knowledge of chemical synthesis?

My theory: If Mobil lost (as they knew they would) this would give Mobil and others the green light to use any other base oil group with GroupIV and V and call their formulations, "Synthetics."

I may p**s off Mobil, but their patents regarding using GroupIII and ANs predate the BBB fiasco.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Yup-o. We need more people getting tired of it, then maybe things will change but they need to know first! The D1 ESP is a fine, fine oil. Isn't it just insane that it can retail for so much less than run-of-mill M1?

It is driving me bananas. I find it odd that we worry about what base stocks are in an oil labelled as synthetic, yet in Canada, we're dumb enough to swallow $25 per jug conventional oil from the big retailers.

People always grumble how M1 and Syntec never get as cheap as other synthetics on rollback. Don't blame Imperial Oil or Wakefield. Walmart and Canadian Tire know we're stupid enough to think that M1's and Sytec's longevity on the shelves makes it a better, premium product and worth more money.

 

[kschachn]

What is the issue here? I was trying to understand it from your post(s) but I can't figure it out. What is different in Canada than here?

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Yup-o. We need more people getting tired of it, then maybe things will change but they need to know first! The D1 ESP is a fine, fine oil. Isn't it just insane that it can retail for so much less than run-of-mill M1?

It is driving me bananas. I find it odd that we worry about what base stocks are in an oil labelled as synthetic, yet in Canada, we're dumb enough to swallow $25 per jug conventional oil from the big retailers.

People always grumble how M1 and Syntec never get as cheap as other synthetics on rollback. Don't blame Imperial Oil or Wakefield. Walmart and Canadian Tire know we're stupid enough to think that M1's and Sytec's longevity on the shelves makes it a better, premium product and worth more money.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
What is the issue here? I was trying to understand it from your post(s) but I can't figure it out. What is different in Canada than here?

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Yup-o. We need more people getting tired of it, then maybe things will change but they need to know first! The D1 ESP is a fine, fine oil. Isn't it just insane that it can retail for so much less than run-of-mill M1?

It is driving me bananas. I find it odd that we worry about what base stocks are in an oil labelled as synthetic, yet in Canada, we're dumb enough to swallow $25 per jug conventional oil from the big retailers.

People always grumble how M1 and Syntec never get as cheap as other synthetics on rollback. Don't blame Imperial Oil or Wakefield. Walmart and Canadian Tire know we're stupid enough to think that M1's and Sytec's longevity on the shelves makes it a better, premium product and worth more money.

I just think jrustles and Garak are commenting on how much name brand oils including synthetics cost in Canada at the big box store chains compared to the States; about double the price.

There are exceptions and we do seem to get a good deal on OEM oils. For example the every day price on TGMO 0W-20 is $5.65/L which is generally cheaper than what Toyota/Lexus dealers charge Stateside.

 

[pscholte]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: kschachn
What is the issue here? I was trying to understand it from your post(s) but I can't figure it out. What is different in Canada than here?

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Yup-o. We need more people getting tired of it, then maybe things will change but they need to know first! The D1 ESP is a fine, fine oil. Isn't it just insane that it can retail for so much less than run-of-mill M1?

It is driving me bananas. I find it odd that we worry about what base stocks are in an oil labelled as synthetic, yet in Canada, we're dumb enough to swallow $25 per jug conventional oil from the big retailers.

People always grumble how M1 and Syntec never get as cheap as other synthetics on rollback. Don't blame Imperial Oil or Wakefield. Walmart and Canadian Tire know we're stupid enough to think that M1's and Sytec's longevity on the shelves makes it a better, premium product and worth more money.

I just think jrustles and Garak are commenting on how much name brand oils including synthetics cost in Canada at the big box store chains compared to the States; about double the price.

There are exceptions and we do seem to get a good deal on OEM oils. For example the every day price on TGMO 0W-20 is $5.65/L which is generally cheaper than what Toyota/Lexus dealers charge Stateside.


Yup, there is no such thing as a free lunch unless, of course, the lunch is free...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
What is the issue here? I was trying to understand it from your post(s) but I can't figure it out. What is different in Canada than here?

CATERHAM pretty much covered it. Our big retailers here have been incrementally raising the price of oil for many years. Of course, your retailers have been doing the same. The difference is, however, that our retailers have been adding much more than would be considered acceptable given inflation and the increase in the value of our currency over the past many years.

It's how it was done that is sneaky and rather underhanded. Walmart changed people's oil buying habits up here, just like it did in the States. It got to the point that with convenience and price, I would rarely consider other choices beyond Walmart (or Canadian Tire on occasion). They had the most visible advertising and flyers, too.

For those and a couple other reasons, I hadn't gone to my previous sources for oil for a number of years. These sources included RCWC (a wholesale club up here that competes with Costco) or the oil companies' distributors. Canadian Tire's sales have always been a bit of a nuisance, with stock running out in a hurry. Now, Walmart's rollbacks have been less frequent and instead of bringing in lots of stock like they used to, they frequently run out of the rolled back oil on the first day of the sale.

Anyhow, I made a few discoveries that made me question Walmart's and CT's pricing practices. First, I saw a truck stop in Saskatoon selling PYB for cheaper than Walmart's regular price, and a farm supply store beating Walmart and CT on conventional. Okay, not a big deal, perhaps these places haven't updated their prices lately or just have a tiny margin.

Then, I stopped by RCWC and saw that Mobil 1 has only increased in price by $2 per big jug for over 15 years. Now, they move enough product that I know it's not old stock or old pricing or an oversight. Petro-Canada gas stations, I then noticed, are selling their litre bottles at about the same price as Walmart. Gas stations with Walmart prices? Something is amiss. Then, I made a call to Imperial Oil to check some prices. They are selling Mobil synthetics at roughly the same price that Walmart is selling conventional oils, and Walmart sells synthetics at roughly double that price again.

That's what's different up here. We complain about our oil prices, but the real culprit isn't the oil companies at all, or the small retailers - it's the big retailers. Walmart and Canadian Tire are the problem, and they don't have anywhere near the competition that they would find operating in the States. While other retailers are selling oil with a roughly 15% markup, Walmart and Canadian Tire (outside of rollbacks) are selling oil at a whopping 100% markup. And, I bet it's actually more than that, since the odds of me getting oil from Imperial Oil at the exact same price that Walmart does is rather slim.

If I want PU, I'll find it with ease because I'll get it right from the SOPUS distributor. If I want PYB, I'll do the same thing, without waiting for Walmart to throw me a bone. If I want Mobil Super or M1, I know my Imperial Oil distributor won't gouge me.

I'm simply writing Walmart and Canadian Tire out of the equation.

 

[kschachn]

Wow that's amazing. Here, Walmart is usually cheaper, if you can find something for less elsewhere (and not just oil) it is generally the only thing that's cheaper at that store. Especially oil as is well documented here on BITOG.

I wonder what Walmart is thinking? That no one will notice? That just doesn't seem like the philosophy here. Like them or hate them, Walmart generally strives to have the lowest price no matter what.

 

[Garak]

I think it's just that you guys have a lot more competition down there. Up here, we don't have near the number of auto parts chains that you guys do. We do have NAPA, but they're hit and miss. The other big auto parts chain is Partsource, which is a sister store to Canadian Tire, so it's not real "competition" anyhow. We do have a lot of independent and semi-independent parts stores. They often have surprisingly low prices on oil. They were another place I'd often pick up oil until Walmart came on the scene.

I guess just because of the lack of competition in Canada, particularly highly visible competition, Walmart (and subsequently CT) just have little incentive to lower their prices. I can't fault Walmart's pricing when they do have a rollback. Those are very, very impressive. But, as I mentioned, they've begun to adopt the Canadian Tire practice of having as little stock as possible available during an advertised special.

Aside from vastly improving their oil filter choices, the Walmart oil buying experience has gone downhill for years. These little incremental price increases (that exceeded inflation) were annoying, but the rollbacks were nice and they always had more than enough stock on rollback. Now, the rollbacks are less frequent, and the stock just isn't here. Then, I find out the markup exceeds 100%.

The last time I was at Canadian Tire (a very, very long time ago), it happened to be during an M1 sale. This poor guy was picking through the remains of M1 jugs, looking for 5w30, but that was long gone. He was going to settle on 10w30. I told him to go ten blocks west and five blocks south to the RCWC, and that they had M1 at the same price as CT's rollback, every day of the week, and he wouldn't have to pick through the bones and settle for the wrong grade. He thanked me, set the jug down, and got the heck out of there.

Our WMs do shine on the Supertech stuff (now a different name apparently). They use a different supplier in Canada, and we can get just about all the grades in 5 gallon pails. When the stuff is on rollback, it's pretty incredible. The last rollback I saw on gallon jugs was $6 a gallon. Contrast that to their "clearance price" on SM/GF-4 Castrol Edge with Titanium at $14 a quart. If they realized that 100% markup isn't exactly clearance, let alone industry standard on regular oil pricing, they might move the stuff.

All I say is watch the pricing. The competition they face down south keeps them fairly honest. Up here, it's different. Also, watch the stock. Look at how many people have difficulty finding PU in various American locales. Up here, they crammed the orange can down our throats for so many years I lost count.