M1-HM or QSUD For QUIETNESS?

[Verminator]

I'm heading to the USA next week and am looking forward to getting some engine oil at about half the price they sell the stuff for here in Canada.

As you may remember, I have a 2004 Hyundai Santa Fe, currently on regular Mobil 1 Synthetic for the last two oil changes. During the colder winter months the engine sounded just horrible at cold start ups, very noisey, almost thought damage was being donw (using M1 5W30 by the way). As the weather has started to warm up, the starts are much smoother now but still the motor is "loud". Some have referred to the sound as a "mini-diesel" and I'd agree with that descriptor.

So many of you have replied in this forum about the "noise" that M1 "somtimes" causes in "some" motors. Mine happens to be one of those motors. I'm not disputing the protection of M1 and understand that noise does not necessarily equate to damage, but I have to say during a few starts when it was a few degress below freezing, I was ready to take it to the shop to see what the [censored] was wrong with it!

The clear choices for me at this point, based on user suggestions here, seem to be:

Quaker State Ultimate Durability (QSUD)
or
Mobil 1 High High Mileage (m1-HM) (I have 235,000 km on the engine).

The M1-HM is not availble in Canada which is why I'm happy to be going to the USA.

The one thing I have NOT been able to determine from this forum here is if there are people here who have switched from M1 to M1-HM and NOTICED an decrease in engine sound? There are a few who claim there have been no "reports" of loud engine noise with M1-HM like there are with regular M1, but I've yet to find anyone who has any first hand experience that can tell me that M1-HM WILL decrease the engine noise over regular M1.

Any experiences in this would be greatly appreciated, and your thoughts on which is the better oil to use. I DO WANT a quieter and smoother running engine...this is important to me, and I suspect both brands will protect equally well.

I'll await your replies! And thank you!

 

[Rolla07]

QSUD or PP or PU (if you can find it)

Although what about trying Mobil AFE 0w30?
I hear the issue was with plain M1 although I could be wrong. Has it really been cold there? Personally I would go with a HM if oil is being burned or leaking...but thats up to you.

 

[R80RS]

I switched from M1 to M1 HM (both 5w-20) last year in the Freestar in my signature line. Can't say I noticed a difference in noise from one to the other. The engine seems normal with either. The past winter was quite cold here, maybe colder than you see in Vancouver, and the Freestar started with no problem running the HM.

If you are interested, my first UOA with the HM is here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...-20#Post3188007

 

[Verminator]

Originally Posted By: Rolla07
QSUD or PP or PU (if you can find it)

Although what about trying Mobil AFE 0w30?
I hear the issue was with plain M1 although I could be wrong. Has it really been cold there? Personally I would go with a HM if oil is being burned or leaking...but thats up to you.


Oil is NOT being burned and is NOT leaking...I add MAYBE have a litre/quart over 7,000km. After reading the 101 on oils I get that the 0W always seems preferable, but I'm a bit too chicken to try that just yet on a vehicle that lists 10W30 for the recommended oil. I'm looking for good protection, obviously from a full synthetic oil but it HAS to be quieter than the noise I'm getting from regular M1

 

[Verminator]

Originally Posted By: R80RS
I switched from M1 to M1 HM (both 5w-20) last year in the Freestar in my signature line. Can't say I noticed a difference in noise from one to the other. The engine seems normal with either. The past winter was quite cold here, maybe colder than you see in Vancouver, and the Freestar started with no problem running the HM.

If you are interested, my first UOA with the HM is here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...-20#Post3188007

It doesn't get very cold her at all, I think the worst was -9C (16F) which is what concerned me the most with the regular M1. Thanks for the UOA!

 

[R80RS]

Originally Posted By: Verminator
Originally Posted By: R80RS
I switched from M1 to M1 HM (both 5w-20) last year in the Freestar in my signature line. Can't say I noticed a difference in noise from one to the other. The engine seems normal with either. The past winter was quite cold here, maybe colder than you see in Vancouver, and the Freestar started with no problem running the HM.

If you are interested, my first UOA with the HM is here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...-20#Post3188007

It doesn't get very cold her at all, I think the worst was -9C (16F) which is what concerned me the most with the regular M1. Thanks for the UOA!


We saw -35F/-37C back in January, and the Freestar ran fine with M1 HM.

 

[Doog]

Mobil1 runs noisy in my wifes lexus. Switched to PP...quiet. But it took about 2-3 OCI's. I don't know why but PP is ny favorite oil and QSUD #2

 

[tswm]

Originally Posted By: Verminator

Oil is NOT being burned and is NOT leaking...I add MAYBE have a litre/quart over 7,000km. After reading the 101 on oils I get that the 0W always seems preferable, but I'm a bit too chicken to try that just yet on a vehicle that lists 10W30 for the recommended oil. I'm looking for good protection, obviously from a full synthetic oil but it HAS to be quieter than the noise I'm getting from regular M1


One of GM's best engines, I think it was the push rod 3800 with a short timing chain, over ten years ago in vehicles like their leading division Buick required 10W30, that is how it was displayed on the oil cap, with the owner manual further saying to use 0W30 when it gets extremely cold, I guess they were hinting at GC 0W30 back in those days.

What I have gleaned from reading the multitudes of BITOG oil analyses and multitudes of stories is that, the moral of the stories to me is that (for best results as well as to save money) run multigrade 10W30 conventional, either any established name brand or one of the store brands produced by WPP, during summer operation, and from late autumn through the start of spring, run monograde 20 (monogrades 20,30,40 are said to especially be resistive to fuel dilution, but of course 30 and 40 grades are bad for variable timing valve trains, the most modern engines that feature them). At this time, monograde 20 is essentially impossible to obtain, so that's not realistically an option you have. Your vehicle is I think run by a timing belt, and certainly is powered by a naturally aspirated FI engine. Though the monograde 20 oil is unavailable, you can greatly benefit your old engine (and save money) by running either MS5K or the High Mileage version thereof or MaxLife or Pennzoil HM, any of these four in the 10W30 grade during summer, and for winter operation, spend a little more and use a can of BG MOA; combine BG MOA with either 100% 5W30 conventional or some blend of 5W30 and 10W30 of the same conventional oil; cheaper than BG MOA is LM MoS2. If you choose to run LM MoS2 as your winter oil additive, then if I were you, I would not do 100% 5W30 conventional which shears more rapidly, but rather blend in at least 1 qt (~1 liter in your case, I guess) of 10W30 conventional. By the way, the MoS2 additive clashes with the titanium additive, so run MS5K by itself during winter or at any season, if you do run MS5K. I have never tried to mix BG MOA with any titanium carrying oil, so I can not vouch for such blend, but I'm thinking it will be okay. MS5K is low-to-mid SAPS oil, so when BG MOA boosts its TBN, it will be high but not excessively high. You can not go wrong with either PP or QSUD, but because their starting TBN is about 9, and you don't want your starting TBN to be too high as too much Ca detergent will tend to wash away the protective phosphorus layers upon the engine contact surfaces, it is preferable not to run BG MOA with 5W30 full synthetic initially, but because a 5W30 synth is somewhat less shear stable than 10W30 synth of the same formulation, later during OCI you could opt to draw off some used oil and pour in 11 oz of BG MOA to fortify the oil, and depending on how close to normal service your vehicle be subject to, this approach could possibly let you operate past 10K miles for the entire OCI.

 

[tig1]

You seem to be obsessed with this subject. Flip a coin, buy an oil. Your engine could care less what oil you use.

 

[Verminator]

Originally Posted By: tig1
You seem to be obsessed with this subject. Flip a coin, buy an oil. Your engine could care less what oil you use.

Aren't we all obsessed with oil if we're here?

And you're right, except my engine definitely doesn't like Mobil 1

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Verminator
Originally Posted By: tig1
You seem to be obsessed with this subject. Flip a coin, buy an oil. Your engine could care less what oil you use.

Aren't we all obsessed with oil if we're here?

And you're right, except my engine definitely doesn't like Mobil 1


Then I would suggest you try something differant and forget M1. There are several good choices that your engine will "like".

 

[BillyTheKid]

Maybe I missed the answer, but how do you know your engine didn't like M1? Is this just by sound or was this an actual issue that happened?

 

[Verminator]

Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
Maybe I missed the answer, but how do you know your engine didn't like M1? Is this just by sound or was this an actual issue that happened?


Yes, it's just the noise...it is just loud like a mini-diesel at times. I have no doubt that M1 is excellent and that noise does not equate to damage, but I just can't stand the noise. my vehicle ran so smooth and quiet before and it's a deal breaker for me.

 

[cheesepuffs]

People conplain that M1 makes their engine noisy. People praise QSUD for making their engines quiet. The choice is clear, drop M1 like a bad habit. I used M1 once and didn't like it myself. I think QSUD or really any SOPUS product will give you what you're looking for.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Verminator
Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
Maybe I missed the answer, but how do you know your engine didn't like M1? Is this just by sound or was this an actual issue that happened?


Yes, it's just the noise...it is just loud like a mini-diesel at times. I have no doubt that M1 is excellent and that noise does not equate to damage, but I just can't stand the noise. my vehicle ran so smooth and quiet before and it's a deal breaker for me.


So since your engine ran so"smooth and quite before" the question begs to be ask. WHY not switch back? Seems like a lot of drama on your part. Just switch back.

 

[Verminator]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Verminator
Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
Maybe I missed the answer, but how do you know your engine didn't like M1? Is this just by sound or was this an actual issue that happened?


Yes, it's just the noise...it is just loud like a mini-diesel at times. I have no doubt that M1 is excellent and that noise does not equate to damage, but I just can't stand the noise. my vehicle ran so smooth and quiet before and it's a deal breaker for me.


So since your engine ran so"smooth and quite before" the question begs to be ask. WHY not switch back? Seems like a lot of drama on your part. Just switch back.


Yes, I can see where you may think I'm being a whiney [censored]...but the reason I don't want to go back is because the whole purpose of changing was to switch to synthetic. so just looking for a full synthetic that will do what I'm looking for. It seems QSUD or M1-HM are my best bets. Will each change between 5-10.000 km if I have to go through several to find what I'$ looking for it could take years. Hence my reason for looking here for other with my same engine and their experiences.

 

[tswm]

Originally Posted By: Verminator

looking for a full synthetic that will do what I'm looking for. It seems QSUD or M1-HM are my best bets. Will each change between 5-10.000 km if I have to go through several to find what I'$ looking for it could take years. Hence my reason for looking here for other with my same engine and their experiences.


As far as you having too many M1 5W30 jugs, when you come down to the USA, perhaps you can buy at USA price, M1 0W40; if I were you, in order to hedge my bets I'd buy no more than one jug of M1 0W40 and one jug of M1 HM 10W30/10W40, and blend therefrom with your existing supply of M1 5W30 jugs. The Caterham Blend is 50/50 of TGMO 0W20 and M1 0W40. I anticipate that either M1 5W30 + M1 0W40 or M1 5W30 + M1 HM 10W30/10W40 may relieve you of your valve train acoustic woes. Not saying that such blends will really solve your valve train problem, but I think it worth trying, if I were you. You may want to have a can of LM MoS2 handy, so if such a blend with the ratio of your choosing does not yield speedy resolution, you may want to wait it out as I did last year with a majority M1 EP SM blend (see below paragraphs), or when your patience wear thin, you could pour in about 4 oz. of MoS2 additive. Overfilling by 4 oz will not be harmful; also you could before hand fill your sump with aforesaid M1, Caterham-like blend short of filling to the full line by about 4 oz.

My car's engine is all aluminum alloy, features one of those modern variable timing valve trains, runs with a timing belt. Has a sump of 5 quarts, burns around 1/2 qt every OCI, whether 5W30 or 10W30, no matter synthetic or conventional. Previous OCI last year was 100% PP 10W30 (my car is not one of those 2000s F-150, Crown Vic type vehicles with elongated timing chains and narrow oil passages, so I am not compelled to run the thinner 5W20 A1 and 5W30 A1/B1 grades), no special additive was added, topped up more than 3K miles later with Chevron Supreme conventional GF-4 SM 5W30, about 12 oz total:
the car ran as if it were brand new on PP 10W30, such smooth engine running;
at about 5.8K miles, the low oil pressure light stayed on too long at cold cranking for me, and instead of only changing the oil filter, I did a complete oil change. That's because I was anxious to try something new. You see, I'd seen a deal I could not pass up
for 4 qts of M1 EP "Fully Synthetic", "Advanced SuperSyn" (the current ones are labeled "Advanced Full Synthetic") GF-4 SM 5W30.

Let me mention that I once ran on this car, 5 qts M1 HM 10W30, in the days when Mobil 1 had not yet switched over to blending
the Ca detergent with Mg detergent for gasoline engine Mobil 1 oils, the car ran well, no problem was noticed.

Because of what I had read in BITOG and elsewhere, I was a bit wary of M1 EP SM, but I figured it's not the Mg detergent-carrying SN GF-5 M1 (which is believed to retard the rate of TBN decline, that's the good part, but unfortunately also is believed to not clean as effectively as the Ca detergent) and also it is the EP not the regular, and the price was too good to pass up, so even though it was not 10W30 I grabbed all 4 bottles. And taking a calculated risk of also utilizing at the same time 20% ester synthetic (for fear that too much PAO fluid may be adverse to engine seals), I blended the aforesaid 4 qts M1 EP 5W30 (from the SM era) with 1 qt bottle SM (this one not "Energy Conserving") G-Oil 5W30, to wit, the more desirable version #2 of the G-Oil. Start the engine, and no unusual valve train clatter, and the low oil pressure light went off much faster; however, when I drove into the highway, somewhere past about 50 MPH, a low frequency noise through the firewall, which I had never heard when operating this car, I heard, an audible tick, maybe every 2 to 4 seconds, as I accelerated as high as 70 to 75 MPH. Same thing happened at every subsequent high speed driving for a few days, whether in acceleration or in staying steady at any highway speed past 50-55 MPH, and then that slightly disturbing ticking went away (coming somewhere from the engine, audible through the firewall, all windows up), and I felt confident about really doing the intended 10K OCI, that was last year, and I am continuing with the same in the sump at this time, having reached past 6K miles. So far, no oil leak, the same as previously, but oil consumption wise, a bit higher than it used to be with PP 10W30, and I've topped up during current OCI of 4 qt M1 EP SM + 1 qt G-Oil with more than 1/2 qt Chevron Supreme 10W30 SN but an amount less than 1 qt top up oil. An interestingly new phenomenon noticed during this OCI is that on the dipstick, the level tends to stabilize at about half way between the full mark and the low mark. And I did not utilize of my current stash of LM MoS2 cans.

This slight, temporary manifestation of unusual valve train acoustics using mostly M1 EP SM 5W30 could arguably be attributed to me blending in a different oil, aforesaid ester G-Oil of 1 qt, but I tend to interpret what I have experienced personally as that even during the SM era something must have been amiss with the PAO and the Group III fluids of both the EP and the regular versions of the USA-Canada Mobil 1 5W30. Gonna operate a little bit past 10K miles on this OCI; after that, gonna run a blend of 3 qts G-Oil version #2 5W30 and 2 qts PU 10W30 SN for a minimum of 10K miles, hopefully more than 11K miles (I do not anticipate any weird valve train noise on this planned fill, but that's only a guess for now, we'll see); for thereafter, I have already lined up 5 qt MS5K to be driven 6K to 7K.

 

[steve20]

#1 QS Green Bottle 5-30 for quietness
but
you want a syn
#2 QSUD 5-30

 

[Verminator]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure I want to start "blending" different grades of oils. I think I can use the M1 up elswhere (like the ex-wife's car where I don't care if it's noisey

).

You are not the first person to mention this MoS2 stuff. I'm not clear really on what it is and what its purpose is? I don't have any leaks with regular M1 and it uses mayby half a litre/quart per OCI. I'm also not really intersted in extended OCI, I'm happy sticking with the manufacturers OCI of 5,00km, and I'm getting excellent gas milega right now so my ONLY issue is the noise.

I seem to have read on BITOG many times that the ONLY thing that should go in the crank-case is oil. But I'm interested to learn more about what exactly this MoS2 is supposed to do and why it is used.

 

[tswm]

Speaking as a somewhat experienced consumer (also having long considered the various arguments put forth in BITOG),
and knowing that synthetic motor oils were originally intended for cold weather operation, and having been very recently apprised of scientific evidence that PAO is even less desirable than I previously had supposed (although Group IV-PAO based oils are believed to better combat the harmful effects of engine running with blown head gasket) because of thinner oil film than mineral oil film, well okay, yet stronger oil film than mineral oil film, more than ever I tend to be more fond of the Group III pseudo synthetics (no derision intended) especially the SOPUS products (they do work pretty much as advertised, are usually convenient to purchase), and the ester versions of the Group V full synthetic, and because you drive in a cold weather region but not in one that is subject to "polar vortex", neither Arctic climate, I think it is safest for your motor overall (and easy on your wallet too) running a 100% 10W30 Group III/III+ motor oil, especially either QSUD 10W30 or PP 10W30, yes, year round in your circumstance.

I say, wait for New PP with GTL 5W30 UOA to show up in BITOG. I THINK I recently saw in person that very bottle, and it said ACEA A5/B5, but my recollection is not clear on that point. Of course, you can visit the Pennzoil site for Internet verification.

If there were only one version of the old PP 5W30 (now being displaced by New PP with GTL PurePlus), it would be one thing, but there were at least two versions prior to New PP with GTL being introduced this year in Jan/Feb. The earlier of the two Old PP 5W30, was rated at both A1/B1 and A5/B5, and it seems to me this is what really made the reputation of greatness for SOPUS synthetic oil products in general. I have never read of any UOA of that oil, that was poor. But recently I have seen at least one poor PP 5W30 UOA, and I'm afraid that car was speced at 10W30, and also that PP 5W30 was the latest of the two Old PP 5W30, the one whereon it is printed 1 dexos APPROVED: on the back of that Dexos1 bottle, it says only A1/B1 a Mainline lubricants spec, but not the high performance engine Upper Mainline lubricants spec of A5/B5. I'm afraid the same pattern holds for the QSUD. And because you almost certainly will not be able to find enough quantities of the old PP 5W30 carrying the A5/B5 spec, for all these reasons plus the fact that you are not afflicted with "polar vortex", even though you drive in Canada, I strongly believe that you are good to go with QSUD/PP 10W30, the tried and proven stuff. My opinion, in part based on personal experience.

Now if we are talking about a 2013/2014 Honda Civic, for example, which is speced in the USA market for 0W20, and I suppose in Canada too, then absolutely you are safe to run the Old PP 5W30 bearing the Dexos1 message, only rated at A1/B1.

Originally Posted By: Verminator

You are not the first person to mention this MoS2 stuff. I'm not clear really on what it is and what its purpose is? I don't have any leaks with regular M1 and it uses mayby half a litre/quart per OCI. I'm also not really intersted in extended OCI, I'm happy sticking with the manufacturers OCI of 5,00km, and I'm getting excellent gas milega right now so my ONLY issue is the noise.

I seem to have read on BITOG many times that the ONLY thing that should go in the crank-case is oil. But I'm interested to learn more about what exactly this MoS2 is supposed to do and why it is used.



My research has yielded a finding that MoS2 molybdenum disulfide has been known, its benefits as lubricant, for a long time, I mean several decades on both sides of the Atlantic, used in greases, but for the more fluid motor oil, it seems there was much difficulty in keeping the MoS2 molecules suspended in the base oil, but Liqui Moly (also known as Lubro Moly) sells a civilian product that has solved that problem. It is believed that, I am paraphrasing what I have read, the MoS2 protects surfaces subject to extreme pressures by bonding to the metal on top of the phosphorus layers that come from ZDDP family of compounds. Btw there are other moly additives more soluble in oil, such as what is contained in PP/QSUD. I know from personal experience that LM MoS2 allows an engine to run more smoothly, as long as the engine oil is NOT formulated with the titanium additive, such Mobil Super 5000, Toyota 5W30 conventional, Kendall with Ti, Castrol with Ti. The original Mobil Super Synthetic also carried Ti, but the newer version of the same product line does not.

Not sure if any version of Mobil Super HM was formulated with the Ti additive. Probably, and probably there was only one version, the same way there's only one version of MS5K. MS5K has a different name in Canada, I think it's called Mobil Super 1000? 2000?
Clevy is the leading advocate of LM MoS2 in BITOG, he's had great success with it, and so have many others including myself, except I empirically discovered to my grief that there is indeed as taught in BITOG that there is such a thing as additive clash, for example, MoS2 additive clashing with Ti additive: I know for a fact that this clash causes drivability problems, no engine knocking/detonation, but you can immediately feel something is faulty with engine lubrication, therefore the transmission transmits power yes, but not in a smooth, normal way.

It sounds like you need MoS2 for your somewhat aged motor, if using your regular M1 5W30 SN GF-5.

You may or may not need MoS2, if using the THINNER versions of QSUD/Old PP 5W30 SN GF-5.

If using the New PP 5W30 PurePlus SN GF-5, I don't know what to anticipate, you should at least Internet verify that it is speced at A5/B5; if so, you probably don't need MoS2.

You do not need MoS2 for all practical purposes (but doesn't hurt to use it either), if using PP/QSUD 10W30 SN GF-5, as I know for a fact PP 10W30 is speced at A5.

The probability of that dreaded valve train acoustics not returning, is highest if you run any 10W30 oil. And in your situation, with cold (but not extremely cold) weather and the car being on the older side, to be friendly to the engine seals, at the same time to retard the rate of oil oxidation, a Group III synthetic that is easy to find and cost effective, the most exemplary type of this in North America is the SOPUS line of Group III synthetic oils as many in BITOG claim. They also produce the Shell synthetic, but harder to find. Therefore, either PP or QSUD.

Hope this helps. Gather information, then make an informed decision,
that your afflictions may cease.