Low T that's right I said it

[wander2039]

Originally Posted By: NothingNew
Originally Posted By: Eric Smith
I'm on a 200mg shot every 12 days.


Is that T cypionate, T enanthate or? A shot every 12 days is less than ideal given their half-life. You might do better with a 100mg shot every 6 or 7 days. More stable T levels with less of a roller coaster effect.


T cypionate... The doc wanted to bump it down to 10 days but I told him I'd hold off and see how it adjusts over time. After this one today may just do a 6 days 1/2ml injection. Hormones are so finicky.

 

[andrewg]

Having a lowering testosterone count is a very normal part of aging. Men are not supposed to feel like they are 25 and ready to breed at any moment..... as you enter your later years. The majority of cases of having a lower sex drive, stamina, energy, etc. is a case of not eating and exercising properly. In my opinion these clinics that advertise about it as well as some doctors, are about capitalizing financially on a new fad. Just a look at any of the "questionnaires" to determine if you could be a candidate for so called low-T treatments is ridiculous. Of course, the questions are designed to get you to answer yes to many of them as it's about getting you into the medical office. While some folks, especially younger guys, may have sound medical reason to seek low-T help, the majority of it is hogwash (my opinion). The real issue to me is that today people are discouraged from accepting the aging process as though it's to be feared or disdained. It's, for some reason, supposed to be sought that men should remain virile, muscular, and have a full head of hair until we are 95. The FDA is reassessing the controversy concerning the detrimental effects of testosterone treatments because not enough data has been collected. Many independent studies have shown some types of low-T treatments to have negative effects on the rate of heart attacks and even cancer rates. But I know what those supporting this new craze will say to that....PROVE IT! Well, it can't be proven....yet. But one should definitely consider all the possible risks involved when you are talking about any kind of hormone therapy. A lot of medical history where any sort of hormone treatments has connections to negative health concerns.

 

[wander2039]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Our government news broadcaster has a show called Doc-Zone and they did a story on something called the Disappearing Male due to external factors in our environment like certain chemicals. It was quite interesting to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL02C9C8DD93C1B16A

Interesting


It was really interesting and I started thinking of all the folks I know who are millennial / sandwich generation and they more often times than not have female kids. Very few had males. Scary!


In my family I was only boy out of seven girls on the Smith side. This generation iss all boys on both my and wife's side. The last (her) generation on her side was all girls. Seems to be opposite in our case.

 

[Rock_Hudstone]

Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Originally Posted By: Eric Smith
! The more I exercise the faster the numbers drop.

That's crazy. They exercise helps but your case it didnt.

Depends on the type of exercise. Long punishing jogs and marathons for example actually lowers T.

Short high intensity workouts and weight lifting with heavy weights/low reps raises T levels.

I shake my head when I drive by these old guys jogging in the summer heat, wheezing and sweating.

They could get better results in less time with a 1/2 hour high intensity workout

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Originally Posted By: Eric Smith
! The more I exercise the faster the numbers drop.

That's crazy. They exercise helps but your case it didnt.

Depends on the type of exercise. Long punishing jogs and marathons for example actually lowers T.

Short high intensity workouts and weight lifting with heavy weights/low reps raises T levels.

I shake my head when I drive by these old guys jogging in the summer heat, wheezing and sweating.

They could get better results in less time with a 1/2 hour high intensity workout


Wasn't there some mention earlier that low T is a fake diagnose and it's just used to market more drugs?

Anyway, as for the old guys jogging, it depends what results they're looking for. If they're training for a 10k or half marathon, no high intensity workout is going to help. I've done both, but when you take a break from one or the other, performance suffers either way.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Having a lowering testosterone count is a very normal part of aging. Men are not supposed to feel like they are 25 and ready to breed at any moment..... as you enter your later years. The majority of cases of having a lower sex drive, stamina, energy, etc. is a case of not eating and exercising properly.


What you've implied is just not so. Period.

Let's pick apart what you've said. First you claimed that lower T is a normal part of aging. True, as men age, T levels decline slowly. HOWEVER, NOT to the extent we are seeing it today. Today's middle aged fit and healthy man has less than half the T levels his great grandfather did at end of life. We know of no way to increase T levels naturally. In fact, exercise often drives it down. AND I promise grandpa was not doing squats and deadlifts at the local gym every day.

Low T levels ARE associated with obesity, lack of energy and libido. It seems the low T epidemic is largely responsible for the "look" of the modern American male. Short of abject starvation, American men cannot look like their great grandfathers with 26-28 inch waists and 145-160 pound frames.

 

[andrewg]

Cujet,

First off....a sample black and white photo of rather trim men younger men from the early 20th century has no bearing on the discussion. You know as well as I do I could post a photo from the same time period of fat guys. This proves nothing either way and is pretty silly.

And the odd statement you make that my "implication" and "claim" (that as men age we naturally have reductions in testosterone) as not true is a real conundrum. You do realize that that IS a proven biological/medical fact, right? You also realize that as we age, men lose testosterone (about 1% per year after middle age), until the day we die....right? This are facts, not my "claim" or that we have some higher T level reductions than before. The human body and it's biological functions have not altered dramatically in a generation. What has changed is our daily levels of activity and leisure time.

As for men of yesteryear having substantially higher levels of testosterone when compared to todays men of the same age? Do you have some medical studies showing this? From what I have gathered, VERY little data exists showing testosterone levels of average males back in the 1930's-1960's to compare to testosterone levels of today.

As for lower T levels being "associated" (very obscure and loses term) with modern male obesity, etc.? One does not equate the other. But the biggest factor in lower T levels most likely has to do with less active lifestyle changes...not some mysterious lessoning of testosterone or as you call it, an "epidemic". It sounds to me like you've fallen prey to advertising.

And your statement that exercise will not improve T levels is astoundingly misguided.

To NATURALLY increase testosterone:

1. Lose weight.
2. High intensity exercise.
3. Strength training.
4. Proper and healthy diet.
5. Reduce stress.

Bomm! Done. Other than that....accept aging and be graceful about it. It's part of being a man.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Cujet,

Bomm! Done. Other than that....accept aging and be graceful about it. It's part of being a man.


Always respectful.

However, I believe you are incorrect. There is a substantial rise in Autoimmune disease in America. The endocrine system is among the first systems to be attacked by Autoimmune dysfunction. Thyroid and testosterone are among the first hormones to go. I have Hashimoto's and MCTD. Both are Autoimmune diseases. I also have low T. These and similar Autoimmune diseases such as Lupus, UCTD, RA and many, many others are dramatically on the rise.

Let's disregard the fact that 1 in 7 people have an Autoimmune disease. Let's instead consider some possibilities as to why this is so. Our food supply contains chemicals such as insecticides, weed killers, and synthetic fertilizers, PLUS our meats are chock-a-block full of hormones. Even the majority of organic foods test positive for various added compounds.

Our young girls are maturing at 7 and 8 years old, we've never seen that before.

What you don't know about me is that I have always been a fit guy. An avid bicyclist and gym regular. I eat extremely carefully, don't consume man made foods and go organic when ever possible. Veggies and fish, salads, organic, etc. Despite extreme effort, I've lost the battle. The Autoimmune disease is doing me in. Sorry, but eating right and exercise is not a cure all. It never has been. I fell ill to the EB virus at age 33 and never recovered. Autoimmune problems ever since. I'm hardly alone.

Ya know what works? T replacement, and if necessary, Immunosuppressant drugs and steroids.

I make no claims T replacement is for every middle aged man. However, done properly, middle aged men with low to very low T will respond rather favorably. Furthermore, those men are not likely to see improvements in T levels with diet and exercise.

 

[SZR48207]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
I have opted for testorone optimization. My levels were low normal range around 400ppm. Now my testorone is around 800ppm now its in the higher normal range. It has been more then a half a decade since I felt this good. For some reason vets are experiencing low T at a higher rate then General population. I know more then a few 28-30 males there levels before treatment was 200-300ppm range.


There is a book called "Tribe" by Sebastian Junger that had some insights into the various phenomenon that vets experience after coming home.

 

[StevieC]

Cujet,

That is interesting my Thyroid doesn't work either, I also have lot "T" and really bad Rosacea on my face which I'm told can be related to immune system disorders.

 

[JimPghPA]

Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Going through it right now with my doctor... Trying everything before we get to the shots / topical treatments. So far nothing has worked. I don't feel any different other than I seem to get tired more easily and I don't have the strength in my hands like I used to.

Hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel.


As long as it's not a train.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Cujet,

That is interesting my Thyroid doesn't work either, I also have low "T" and really bad Rosacea on my face which I'm told can be related to immune system disorders.


I hope you find success with your issues. If you believe you have Autoimmune issues, see the correct medical team for your area. Here it's probably a Dermatologist (skin shows problems early) , Endocrinologist followed by a Rheumatologist. I'd have been dead for decades now without modern medicine. Again, diet and exercise are a must. But that will not fix real problems.

There are specific tests performed for Autoimmune disease that provide reliable and accurate results. Positive test results coupled with specific symptoms will be required to be diagnosed.

Unfortunately, if one has an Autoimmune disease, the risk for developing other Autoimmune diseases increases. Even with treatment.

https://www.questdiagnostics.com/dms/Doc...ne-Diseases.pdf

 

[emg]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
It seems the low T epidemic is largely responsible for the "look" of the modern American male.


Actually, there was a recent study that claimed the opposite: men becoming fat and lazy as they age isn't the result of low testosterone, but low testosterone is the result of men becoming fat and lazy as they age. It goes down slowly with age anyway, but the obesity epidemic and sedentary lifestyle seem to be the cause of the much more rapid decline that we're seeing today.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If anyone is inclined to do the research, the level of testosterone and level of estrogen in men can be influenced by what you eat. You can also get natural supplements that help promote the production of testosterone and reduce the production of estrogen. And as said by many, exercise and staying in shape is part of that equation too.

 

[gfh77665]

Men ARE definitively fatter and out of shape compared to 3-4 generations ago. That said, I think women are even more fatter in the same time frame. Its less about any hormonal changes and more about sedentary lifestyle, for everyone.

People mostly work in the air conditioned indoors (if they work at all!), and drive everywhere they go, usually with a Slurpee in hand. Leisure time is surfing their electronic device and watching movies. For comparison as kids we played "sandlot football" year round in the 70's, and no computers or cell phones. Lean and mean back then!

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Cujet,

Bomm! Done. Other than that....accept aging and be graceful about it. It's part of being a man.


Always respectful.

However, I believe you are incorrect. There is a substantial rise in Autoimmune disease in America. The endocrine system is among the first systems to be attacked by Autoimmune dysfunction. Thyroid and testosterone are among the first hormones to go. I have Hashimoto's and MCTD. Both are Autoimmune diseases. I also have low T. These and similar Autoimmune diseases such as Lupus, UCTD, RA and many, many others are dramatically on the rise.

Let's disregard the fact that 1 in 7 people have an Autoimmune disease. Let's instead consider some possibilities as to why this is so. Our food supply contains chemicals such as insecticides, weed killers, and synthetic fertilizers, PLUS our meats are chock-a-block full of hormones. Even the majority of organic foods test positive for various added compounds.

Our young girls are maturing at 7 and 8 years old, we've never seen that before.

What you don't know about me is that I have always been a fit guy. An avid bicyclist and gym regular. I eat extremely carefully, don't consume man made foods and go organic when ever possible. Veggies and fish, salads, organic, etc. Despite extreme effort, I've lost the battle. The Autoimmune disease is doing me in. Sorry, but eating right and exercise is not a cure all. It never has been. I fell ill to the EB virus at age 33 and never recovered. Autoimmune problems ever since. I'm hardly alone.

Ya know what works? T replacement, and if necessary, Immunosuppressant drugs and steroids.

I make no claims T replacement is for every middle aged man. However, done properly, middle aged men with low to very low T will respond rather favorably. Furthermore, those men are not likely to see improvements in T levels with diet and exercise.


Cujet,

Sorry about your autoimmune issues. That must be a real challenge. From what I understand, there exists more than 100 different autoimmunity diseases. But I think my posts on the low T subject and your particular medical problem are different topics. I would have no doubt that testosterone treatments and hormone therapy would help you. My area of disagreement is that most of the issues associated with men aging isn't so much a cause of low T, but one of becoming out of proper condition and poor eating/lifestyle habits and age.....and that the cure-all isn't having testosterone treatments.

And now back to the autoimmune disease (AI). The causes of AI are not known yet. Your assumption (based in part, on some theories), is that AI has risen because of chemicals in the environment. This COULD have something to do with....or not. Science has not determined that. It could also have something to do with the worldwide expanse of the western diet that is high in fat, sugar, and processed foods. But once again....not proven. One theory that I would subscribe to is called the Hygiene Hypothesis. That is, AI is caused from excessive vaccines and antiseptic use. Children are not as exposed to as many germs as in the past and this lack of exposure could lead to their immune system overreacting to harmless substances. But....not proven.

One thing about the 'good 'ole days' is to remember that while most folks were less obese, they were also not actually as healthy as they would appear. Life expectancies were very low. In 1900 your average male could be expected to make it to 46 years old. 1935 it was up to about 60. 1957, 67 years. And now?? It's WAY up to 78.8 years! Another thing about the past was because of the lack of food preservatives....you could expect to have many more issues of food-borne illnesses (many lethal). And because of chemicals, starvation has also decreased dramatically in the world (per capita). So...the very things that you abhor (and somewhat justified), have also increased human lifespan and growth.

As for young girls maturing sooner now? Very true. But once again, like the causes of AI....science does not know exactly why this is occurring. The theory that I tend to agree with (and many studies also concur), is that this is due to childhood obesity, not chemicals in the environment.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: emg
Originally Posted By: Cujet
It seems the low T epidemic is largely responsible for the "look" of the modern American male.
Actually, there was a recent study that claimed the opposite: men becoming fat and lazy as they age isn't the result of low testosterone, but low testosterone is the result of men becoming fat and lazy as they age. It goes down slowly with age anyway, but the obesity epidemic and sedentary lifestyle seem to be the cause of the much more rapid decline that we're seeing today.
My own experience confirms this.

Several years ago, I replaced the roof on my house. In addition, many of the miter & rake joints also needed fixing as the original builder didn't call for any metal flashing.

Though I had done this type of work before, getting my body "up to it" was quite a process. First I began in May due to Spring showers. Heat & humidity comes early to central Tx. In the beginning, I'd get nauseaus from it, have sit down, put my head between my knees and cool off. Over time I acclimated.

I was constantly up & down on ladders (much steeper than any staircase), hauling lumber & plywood up, setting up and taking down metal scaffolding, and sweating like crazy.

However, I soon became energized by the work & effort. I also began to eat a lot. When it came time to reshingle, my house was too far from the street for the boom to deliver shingles on the roof. Therefore, I had to carry them.

Each bundle weighed 85 pounds. Finishing the job took about 75 bundles. To prevent wrecking my back & knees, I rigged a sled riding on a ladder with a 4:1 purchase to lift 3 bundles at a time onto the roof.

I'd go to the distributer with a borrowed HD truck, load 1800 pounds of shingles by hand into it, drive home, unload those shingles onto a platform,, then onto the sled, haul them up to the roof, then haul them up to the ridge.

I noticed I was quickly losing fat, my mood was improving, and so was the libido. Soon the belly fat was about gone. I was drinking about 3 liters/day of water. I'd soak multiple shirts with sweat, then just remove them all together.

It took me about 3 months working 6-7hrs/day. All of this was not shingling though as redecking a section + all the miter work meant up/down the ladder & scaffolding several times a day.

No doubt my bodies OWN T-production GREATLY INCREASED due to this amount of work. I could feel it. However, it took this amount of work, day-in/day-out, for these changes to occur.

After the job was done, the work was over, and I'd lifted my last torn off shingle from the ground into the trash, I was fit as a fiddle.

Over time though, the effects diminished, mood dropped, fat came back, etc. Though I'd lifted weights for many years before, I'd never worked out like I did on the roof.

It dawned on me that our easy, sedentary lifestyles may be bad for us guys. Some more than others. I still have a head full of hair (no "male pattern baldness" here), no performance problems either. I've always believed that physical work does me good. I enjoy being outdoors, doing adventurous things and "fighting gravity". Too much indoors, not doing anything physical, over-eating, laying around makes me restless and quickly bored.

Obviously I need to return to weight lifting!

 

[andrewg]

sleddriver,

I concur with what you are explaining 100%. I've done loads of landscaping and wood splitting, etc. and always come to enjoy how I feel afterward. Especially if it's been a week or two of intense physical labor, my libido and general well being increases greatly. I think us men are meant to live this way.