Laser dry fire and other trainers

[JHZR2]

The range I just joined has a qualification - 10/10 bullets in a 12" diameter at 25 yards, outdoors, standing.

I've practiced and more or less always are 7 or 8/10. I think I'm seeing a trend of first shot miss. I've been shooting entirely SA (9mm Colt 1911).

I've never done dry fire practice. Im thinking that perhaps a laser dry fire would be useful. All these new app-integrated tools seem interesting. Why not use tech to get more practice at home?

I also saw the mantis, which seems more like the accelerometer in a phone or Wii remote. But it captures motions to help assess under real live fire.

So what's useful as a training aid to build upon live fire, and what's just a gimmick?

 

[spasm3]

With flat type top slides, i used to have a buddy put a dime on my slide as i was aiming. I'd dry fire practice to not have the dime fall off as i squeezed the trigger. this worked well with my ruger p-90 .45 as it had a flat top slide.

 

[Leo99]

do you have a consistent miss? There is a wheel of miss and the root cause on the internet if you're missing consistently. How is your vision? I like the dime idea. Maybe shoot at the target from 7 yards and keep moving the target farther away as you master the target 10/10. 10/10 at 25yds within a 12" circle is very good pistol shooting.

 

[Astro14]

We used to use this diagnostic target in the Navy...

In all seriousness, dry fire is incredibly useful. Be certain the pistol is empty/clear. Aim the sights carefully, cock the hammer, and then slowly add pressure to the trigger. WATCH THE SIGHTS! They should stay rock steady as the trigger breaks and the hammer falls.

You have to train the anticipation/jerk out of your habits. 100 rounds every night. For at least a week. You're rebuilding muscle memory.

No tools needed. Your gun. Same feel. Very worthwhile.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

Wish I could help you with training aids but I don't have any experience with them. The following may help with qualification if they don't give you the results you want.

When I was doing a lot of practice shooting my range instructor had us do tactical drills against multiple silhouette targets at ranges primarily of 7, 10 and 15 yards. Usually two shots per target center mass with a head shot failure drill on random targets.
He discouraged head shots at the maximum range of 15 yards because he considered them unreliable.
I picked up a Crimson Trace 1911 laser grip and tried it out at one of these sessions in a .45 ACP Colt Commander. Spent some time chasing the laser dot around and getting used to it. No trouble seeing the dot in the bright Las Vegas desert sun. At the end of the session went out to the 15 yard mark just to sequence fire (not a tactical scenario) 9 rounds into the head area. 8 hits inside about a 2.5" circle, with one "flyer" about 1" from the edge of the paper. My instructor, who had previously distained lasers as gimmicks, changed his opinion.

The dot gives you immediate feedback if you aren't keeping your sight steady, if you are pulling the sight off with a hard trigger pull, or are pushing the firearm anticipating recoil (which of course, you don't get with a trainer). 9mm range ammo is so inexpensive now I would be hard pressed to practice with anything but live ammo if I could get to a range.

Sorry I didn't address your question, but hope you consider trying out laser grips.

 

[AZjeff]

While Astro's target is to the point, the one mentioned above gives you something to work on if you miss the same.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by ArrestMeRedZ
Wish I could help you with training aids but I don't have any experience with them. The following may help with qualification if they don't give you the results you want.

When I was doing a lot of practice shooting my range instructor had us do tactical drills against multiple silhouette targets at ranges primarily of 7, 10 and 15 yards. Usually two shots per target center mass with a head shot failure drill on random targets.
He discouraged head shots at the maximum range of 15 yards because he considered them unreliable.
I picked up a Crimson Trace 1911 laser grip and tried it out at one of these sessions in a .45 ACP Colt Commander. Spent some time chasing the laser dot around and getting used to it. No trouble seeing the dot in the bright Las Vegas desert sun. At the end of the session went out to the 15 yard mark just to sequence fire (not a tactical scenario) 9 rounds into the head area. 8 hits inside about a 2.5" circle, with one "flyer" about 1" from the edge of the paper. My instructor, who had previously distained lasers as gimmicks, changed his opinion.

The dot gives you immediate feedback if you aren't keeping your sight steady, if you are pulling the sight off with a hard trigger pull, or are pushing the firearm anticipating recoil (which of course, you don't get with a trainer). 9mm range ammo is so inexpensive now I would be hard pressed to practice with anything but live ammo if I could get to a range.

Sorry I didn't address your question, but hope you consider trying out laser grips.


That's good stuff. Was thinking of playing with the laser bore sight as the cheapest solution, but that's why the integrated solutions seemed better. Rather than trying to watch the laser bouncing along the wall, it seems these systems track the motion as the laser pulses with the gun firing.

The mantis goes into the Picatinny rail and can be used while dry and live firing with sensor feedback.

I agree 9mm range ammo is cheap. Even Cabelas is selling single boxes at $8.79-8.99 each. Getting into 22LR is cheaper yet. But neither can be done in my home, on my time.

I joined the new range because it's closer than my preferred outdoor range, and allows shooting from 6am-11pm... but it's still a time commitment to go and shoot...

I will look into those lasers though!


Originally Posted by AZjeff
While Astro's target is to the point, the one mentioned above gives you something to work on if you miss the same.


I'm a fan of that target and recently got some.

Originally Posted by Leo99
do you have a consistent miss? There is a wheel of miss and the root cause on the internet if you're missing consistently. How is your vision? I like the dime idea. Maybe shoot at the target from 7 yards and keep moving the target farther away as you master the target 10/10. 10/10 at 25yds within a 12" circle is very good pistol shooting.


Good question. When I was shooting more routinely, it would generally look like this:

Today was the third time I've shot in the last month, but before that it was a year and a half. Recently it has been much more all over. And I think if there is a matter, it's more vertically spread on the left side.

Vision is probably degrading with age, but I still don't wear glasses and can see perfectly. No issues with front sight focus or resolving the target sufficiently to aim.

Starting closer is fine, I can/will do so, but I do stil need to work on skill and technique. 10/10 at 25 in a 12" circle is the minimum at this range. Ive got a long way to go...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by Astro14
In all seriousness, dry fire is incredibly useful. Be certain the pistol is empty/clear. Aim the sights carefully, cock the hammer, and then slowly add pressure to the trigger. WATCH THE SIGHTS! They should stay rock steady as the trigger breaks and the hammer falls.

You have to train the anticipation/jerk out of your habits. 100 rounds every night. For at least a week. You're rebuilding muscle memory.

No tools needed. Your gun. Same feel. Very worthwhile.


Yeah, I've never done it. I will. Need to get snap caps as I'm thinking doing it first in my 617 is prudent. Master the .22 at this distance and group size, then move up. I'd anticipate it will be cheaper that way...

 

[Astro14]

Depends on the gun - some are OK dry fired, some need snap caps. Snap cap won't hurt.

When I first went through training with my H&K (issued, USP Compact in .40S&W) they said that dry firing wouldn't hurt it, and dry fire was recommended for practice. They recommended several thousand times. Just like developing a draw from a holster, it takes 2,000+ repetitions to develop (or unlearn) muscle memory.

As one instructor recently put it - sights aligned, then add a pound of pressure to the trigger, add another pound, add another pound, add another pound, keep focusing on that sight alignment as as you add each incremental pound, and when it breaks, you should be surprised.

If the sights jerk, or move, during your slow, steady rearward movement of the trigger, you 've found your problem. Keep working on steady pressure increase, on rearward movement, while keeping the sights dead on. A couple hundred rounds each night for a week - again, it's 2,000+ repetitions to get a new muscle memory.

Another drill that really helps - add one of those 9mm snap caps randomly into your magazine with live ammo. Helps if you have someone load it for you. As you're shooting live ammo - that dud round will really highlight any jerk/anticipation you may have developed. I was shooting with a good friend who kept throwing them low and center. He was anticipating recoil, though he denied doing it. I put a snap cap in his magazine. When his muzzle jerked down at trigger squeeze on the dud round, you could see the lightbulb come on!

One important point - don't forget the cardinal firearm safety rules when dry firing. Treat the gun as if it's loaded live, and have an appropriate target. You can do this at home, but do it in a place that if a live round went off there, no injuries would occur. You want to avoid developing the habit of aiming your gun at any target of opportunity in your house - it desensitizes you to the "treat every gun as if it were loaded" rule and to the "never point a gun at something you're not willing to shoot" rule. Hang a target somewhere reasonable - use only that.

Finally, 10/10 in a 12 inch circle at 25 yards with a pistol is a high standard of accuracy. The gun itself probably has 2-3" of variation at that range, so you're asking a lot of the shooter. I would choose the most accurate gun I own (your S&W .22 is a good choice, I would think) for that test.

 

[JHZR2]

Agree. I have a corridor in my basement that I can use that is out of sight, out of mind, and safe. I like the snap caps because rim fires can do more damage dry firing, and because notionally my 617 is the most accurate... thanks!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by JHZR2
I like the snap caps because rim fires can do more damage dry firing, and because notionally my 617 is the most accurate... thanks!


Fired 22 cases can also be used instead of "snap caps", especially in a revolver where it's easy to get them in & out.

 

[JHZR2]

I was under the impression that snap caps were made of a material with more give. When used brass is compressed, it's compressed, while snap caps come back...

I had ten, so I started practice using my 617. I'm not a small or weak guy, but the 617 with 6" full lug is heavy after a while. I can definitely point my M1917 better.

Ive found that I point the muzzle up and to the right as I pull the trigger.

 

[Astro14]

Day one of dry fire and you've already uncovered something! Work on getting rid of that...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by JHZR2
Ive found that I point the muzzle up and to the right as I pull the trigger.


And verified by the target you posted earlier.