Is Salt Really Necessary ?

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
This will be surprising to many but CO does use salt on the roadways in the mountains. Here is CDOT:

https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/faqs.html

They also allow for studded tires for the winter months.
They also have a bunch of yuppies in AWD SUVs who insist on driving to the ski areas at speeds in excess of posted limits.

That is why salt is used---because people don't want their schedules hampered in any way by being forced to modify driving habits.

The issue with CO/WY/MT is that roadway exposed to sunlight melts clear down to asphalt but where the trees or geography create shaded areas then the snow remains and also creates black ice. Strategic sanding at these transitions as well asat grade is standard practice for these crews.

WY and AK do not use salt but the sand/gravel mix results in a high incidence of cracked windshields.


I thought you lived in Florida???

 

[Andrew1972]

Our state depends on tax dollars from out of state folks to buy meals out, liquor, cigarettes, and lodging to keep coffers of state flowing.

They turn ice and snow covered roads into black asphalt in incredible time if the road has tourist traffic. This is why I have not bothered with winter tires except one set in 25 years driving New England and skiing.

The oldest car I own is 12 years old and it has some rust but I think it die before rot gets it.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
This will be surprising to many but CO does use salt on the roadways in the mountains. Here is CDOT:

https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/faqs.html

They also allow for studded tires for the winter months.
They also have a bunch of yuppies in AWD SUVs who insist on driving to the ski areas at speeds in excess of posted limits.

That is why salt is used---because people don't want their schedules hampered in any way by being forced to modify driving habits.

The issue with CO/WY/MT is that roadway exposed to sunlight melts clear down to asphalt but where the trees or geography create shaded areas then the snow remains and also creates black ice. Strategic sanding at these transitions as well asat grade is standard practice for these crews.

WY and AK do not use salt but the sand/gravel mix results in a high incidence of cracked windshields.


I thought you lived in Florida???

I don't know what your connection is to that other OH oddball cdfg27 but both of you guys have a bit too much personal interest in me. You make posts that don't even pretend to have interest in the topic but only me (like your post above). I just want to make it clear to you two that I am happily married.

I do have residences in FL and elsewhere.

I also work throughout North America and offshore waters and a few destinations in Asia & SE Asia.

This travel combined with my being sn automotive enthusiast allows me a fairly good knowledge of various DOT practices in regions that receive measurable snowfall.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: 02SE


I've considered moving to another locale where Salt or even snow is only a memory. Every time I do consider it, I remember the negatives of those places, and the current home wins out. That may change someday.


This! Houses here are 1/4 the price of houses in nicer climates.

When you have "more" money, due to cars lasting 30 years or whatever, something will suck it up... real estate prices, gas prices, something, and you'll be in the same hole as I am.

The benefit (gah) of salt is I can buy a car tomorrow for $400 that needs $50 in brake lines and 8 hours of work. It'll run perfectly for several years and I can dump it for more than I paid when I got bored. If I were not mechanically inclined this would be an issue but instead it's an opportunity!

On topic, I run snow tires and prefer just a snowy road to a salty, slushy one. But I don't get what I want. There's approx 7 hours of daylight in winter and the sun just doesn't hit the asphalt good enough to clear the ditches. Then the snow banks melt and refreeze daily. We need a permanent slime of salt to mitigate this.

The Maine turnpike has temp sensors on the trucks and in the pavement so they use "just enough" salt. This is sketchy though as it half-freezes when they guess wrong.

I do NOTHING in-season about salt except keep my windows and lights clean for safety. Spring comes and bring substantial rains that combine with the potholes to make excellent splashy undercarriage washes. I do take care of holes in rocker panels etc both to pass inspection and to keep the slurry out from the inner layers of the structure of my car. And I rustproof with fluid film every Octember.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
It's called a car wash and undercarriage wash. You take it there a couple times after a snow storm. No salt means ice on the road. That's worse. Hit black ice once coming up to a stop sign. Car didn't stop, ABS was on all the way, went through the stop sign and turned right. Good thing no one was coming the other way and that the car had ABS, would have gone straight if the tires were locked and probably hit a parked car.


Yeah, great idea...wash the car when it is 20 degrees, so you now have a block of ice. Then discover the doors are frozen closed!

Salt on the road should be prohibited, and the use of snow/ice tires compulsory.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Salt only matters if you want to keep your car past 10 years. Most people don't do that.

There are coping mechanisms besides washing. Leave the hot rod in the garage when the salt trucks are out, and drive the beater to work. There's Krown. Back in the 80's, my friends in New England got "hot oil" sprays every Fall. They've been discussed here as well.


I have seen 3-5 year old vehicles with serious rust. I saw a 7-year-old truck get scrapped...it was rotted beyond reasonable repair, with both rockers totally GONE.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
It's called a car wash and undercarriage wash. You take it there a couple times after a snow storm. No salt means ice on the road. That's worse. Hit black ice once coming up to a stop sign. Car didn't stop, ABS was on all the way, went through the stop sign and turned right. Good thing no one was coming the other way and that the car had ABS, would have gone straight if the tires were locked and probably hit a parked car.


Yeah, great idea...wash the car when it is 20 degrees, so you now have a block of ice. Then discover the doors are frozen closed!

Salt on the road should be prohibited, and the use of snow/ice tires compulsory.


Not only that, but most car washes recycle their water, so when you think you're rinsing with clean water, you're most likely spraying your car with salt water rinsed off of everyone else's vehicles, making your situation even worse...

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
I don't know what your connection is to that other OH oddball cdfg27 but both of you guys have a bit too much personal interest in me. I just want to make it clear to you two that I am happily married. Sorry.

I do have residences in FL and elsewhere.

I also work throughout North America and offshore waters and a few destinations in Asia & SE Asia.

This travel allows me a fairly good knowledge of various DOT practices in regions that receive measurable snowfall.

Should I type this slower so you can get up to speed?

Wow, what a reply that was. Sorry to see you so agitated. I didn't feel like replying back to your numerous private messages since there was no reason for them. On the public forum is fine. That's good you're all over the place. Kind of confirmed what I thought about you in the first place.


Like I said earlier, I don't have time for your [censored] games. Yours or your pal fdgc27.
BTW, lets make it clear. There were 2 PM's. One was politely responding to your original question on another thread and the second after I realized your connection with fdgc27.
Now you are on Ignore so the final word is yours you strange little man.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Guess I will chime in, as I live in the municipality with the highest salt use of any region of the world.

Yes, salt is required, yes it will destroy the car. If you want to drive it year round, should get a German car. BMW, MB, Audi, VW etc all have 12 year corrosion warranties, and are the only cars that actually last body wise. Most people with nice cars will also buy a winter beater they don't care about.

You can not use only Magnesium/Calcium salt. It does not work well if you just apply it on top of snow, it can only be used as a pretreatment. Once there is snow on the ground, you have to switch to good ole regular salt.

Sucks being a tech here, everything is seized. We do rear shocks on 1 year old MDX and the lower shock bolts are already seized.


Down East and and parts of out west primarily use sand from what I've heard, which is definitely easier on vehicles, FWIW.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
It is needed because people are too stupid to buy snow tires or learn how to drive.

I've driven in a foot of snow on uncleared roads, as well as roads that were glare ice without problems. I just needed to adjust my driving accordingly. Both of these conditions were not just in my 4x4 Jeep either.


Hear, Hear!

 

[bbhero]

Yeah I believe that we are using this MgCl formulation down here to pretreat our roads in the Williamsburg area. It does help a fair amount after the snow is done falling.

 

[Nick1994]

I think salt is necessary. Can't imagine eating some foods without it

 

[Rolla07]

Mandatory snow tires up here, and you think because you have snow tires that salt isnt necessary?! Ha! Problem is that ppl choose to not adjust their driving habits. Instead of encouraging ppl to slow down and be careful, we tell them mandatory winter tires and tons of salt. False sense of security, but if salt was removed, alot of ppl would die in accidents. The way ppl drive, im ok with the salt down, it might be the protection needed from other drivers.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
I'm not sure what they're using at the car wash. All I know is that after I wash it, the water isn't frozen and if I take 5-10 minutes to wipe it all off, it's still not frozen...

Maybe the car wash is using a brine rinse solution with a lower freezing point than 32*F.

Taste it.

 

[Kestas]

Sand can't be used in many municipalities because it'll clog the sewer system.

 

[MNgopher]

Always interesting reading when this comes up.

Again, as someone involved in what we apply, when we apply it, and how much we apply: We could use substantially less salt. Period. It isn't an opinion, it is a fact.

The only thing driving our insatiable appetite for the use of salt is driver demand for the use of all season tires, down to nearly bald tread, on bare pavement as soon as is possible. For our "core" roads, that is within 2-4 hours of the end of a minor snow event, depending on classification. For others, it is 8 hours. Other systems are similar. Driver expectation demands it (to the point some people feel that the road should be nearly bare during a snow event, but that's another story). Drivers demand it of our politicians... And thus we, doing our jobs, deliver the level of service requested.

In our area, the lakes and streams are becoming polluted from salt. Not an opinion. Fact. Many areas are being forced to reduce salt application rates to lessen the impact on our water resources. The only way to reduce the input of chlorides in the system is to lessen their use. All of them... And when the EPA/MPCA puts its foot down and says you can't use salt or can use so little, this area is in for a rude awakening.

As others have pointed out, there are actually situations where our use of salt makes road conditions worse in the winter - blowing snow is one of them. Where dry, untreated pavement will allow snow to blow across it and not catch on the road surface, salt creates damp and wet areas, the snow sticks to it when blowing, and presto, another growing drift of snow...

On the car washing front, I'm always amazed when I read how many people in warmer climates than ours claim that you can't wash a car at temps 20 or below. Car washes here generally are open until it hits 0 to 5 degrees. And they work fine, all winter long. My cars don't turn into "blocks of ice" even in the undercarriage wash. The only time I've ever had difficulties with frozen doors are when I've washed it and then it gets colder than 5 or so at night. Granted, I park in an attached garage, but being honest, so do most people here. I'm also of the opinion that rust etc... is worse on vehicles in warmer climates with repeated temps going up and down above freezing. To me, it certainly seems as if the colder the climate, the less rust problems I see (to a point - reality is they all rust eventually).

I could go on an on about chemical selection, pretreatment, removal and premptive strategies, etc... but I'll leave it at that.

The use of salt is driven by convenience. Our choice are catching up to us, and it will be interesting to see where this goes when the law comes down us...