The salt used in MN seems to have changed for the worst. The mechanics at our school bus garage have had an increase in fuel tanks requiring replacement due to the tops corroding and leaking. They say it is from new salt formulas used in the state. The last two years, fuel tank replacement has quadrupled. There are less corrosive, but more expensive options for road chemicals out there. I have wondered about mechanical failures due to salt exposure; brake lines, frames, ect. and what percent of accidents may be caused by them.
Is Salt Really Necessary ?
- Thread starter Merkava_4
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I've lived in the Buffalo NY area all my life. The rust sucks, but we know how to keep the roads open. Some of the steep hills where I live would be impossible to navigate on anything less than tank treads if some type of ice melting compound, along with sand and grit wasn't used. For environmental reasons, they do seem to use more sand and grit in the mix as the years go on.
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
Like said, I'll deal with cars that "only" last 10yrs vs. floods, hurricanes, wild fires, droughts and earth quakes. We do get the occasional tornado!
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
Like said, I'll deal with cars that "only" last 10yrs vs. floods, hurricanes, wild fires, droughts and earth quakes. We do get the occasional tornado!
Salt is cheap, and it works. Municipalities don't care about your car, the cost to repair it if it rusts, or the cost of a replacement vehicle. It's all on you.
Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
It's my experience as well.
Plus, most of the car wash stations have to recycle their waste water to some extent, so unless they use reverse osmosis to filter their water, which is quite costly, salt is already diluted in the "clean" water.
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
It's my experience as well.
Plus, most of the car wash stations have to recycle their waste water to some extent, so unless they use reverse osmosis to filter their water, which is quite costly, salt is already diluted in the "clean" water.
I am obsessed with this topic. I am a California native, transferred to the Midwest 2 years ago for work. I never knew what a real winter was until I moved out here. I had never seen rusty cars either. California cars are in total different leagues than rust belt cars. People out here cannot even picture 90s cars on the roads, and I understand why. Salt really does destroy cars out here. Is it necessary? Yes, but only up to a point. Salt lowers the melting point of the ice by 20 or so degrees, but if it gets colder, than it offers no advantage. You can imagine the salt melting the snow, and turning into dirty ocean water. It is really that bad.
I work on my own cars, and rust can make the simplest jobs 4x as long. As mightymouse said, it is a terrible reality up here. Anything can be replaced in a car, except the body. My remedy is Fluid film, but even that is not perfect. It's impossible to get every nook and cranny, and the spray of wheels washes off a lot of fluid film. But I use it because it is non-toxic, so I don't contribute to natural destruction. Ultimately, what I do is use a winter beater, and keep the nicer car unused all winter long. It is a necessity up here for the car enthusiast.
That being said, I love the Midwest. And I don't have a desire to go back to CA. All seasons except winter here are far better than CA. I will tell you, moving from a drought infested landscape to the temperate Midwest was an eye opener for me. I have never seen so much green grass and trees. It is like the garden of eden up here all summer long. As a California native, I had no idea how beautiful lush green landscapes could be. It all makes it worth it to me. Pay more for a winter beater, sure, but live as an enthusiast without guilt in the winter.
I work on my own cars, and rust can make the simplest jobs 4x as long. As mightymouse said, it is a terrible reality up here. Anything can be replaced in a car, except the body. My remedy is Fluid film, but even that is not perfect. It's impossible to get every nook and cranny, and the spray of wheels washes off a lot of fluid film. But I use it because it is non-toxic, so I don't contribute to natural destruction. Ultimately, what I do is use a winter beater, and keep the nicer car unused all winter long. It is a necessity up here for the car enthusiast.
That being said, I love the Midwest. And I don't have a desire to go back to CA. All seasons except winter here are far better than CA. I will tell you, moving from a drought infested landscape to the temperate Midwest was an eye opener for me. I have never seen so much green grass and trees. It is like the garden of eden up here all summer long. As a California native, I had no idea how beautiful lush green landscapes could be. It all makes it worth it to me. Pay more for a winter beater, sure, but live as an enthusiast without guilt in the winter.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
It's my experience as well.
Plus, most of the car wash stations have to recycle their waste water to some extent, so unless they use reverse osmosis to filter their water, which is quite costly, salt is already diluted in the "clean" water.
+1 All washing does is reactivate the dried salt and calcium chloride that's stuck to the bottom of the car. If we have a week or two of above average weather and it's rained enough to "wash" the roads off, I might run my cars through an automatic. Other than that, wait until spring and give them a good cleaning. My first vehicle was a '93 Toyota pickup 4x4. It was driven all year long (it's all I had and great in the snow). I washed it religiously every week or two. It had holes rusted through the frame after 7 years and was perfect when I got it.
Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
It's my experience as well.
Plus, most of the car wash stations have to recycle their waste water to some extent, so unless they use reverse osmosis to filter their water, which is quite costly, salt is already diluted in the "clean" water.
+1 All washing does is reactivate the dried salt and calcium chloride that's stuck to the bottom of the car. If we have a week or two of above average weather and it's rained enough to "wash" the roads off, I might run my cars through an automatic. Other than that, wait until spring and give them a good cleaning. My first vehicle was a '93 Toyota pickup 4x4. It was driven all year long (it's all I had and great in the snow). I washed it religiously every week or two. It had holes rusted through the frame after 7 years and was perfect when I got it.
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Bubbling on the lower rocker panel near the back wheel well. Being over 10 years old, im not too concerned. I will probably try to sand it and repaint to slow the rust as Id like to keep this car going another 5 years if i can.
This is what I thought I was going to do on my Buick until I actually started sanding and figured out it was coming from the other side and ended up poking a hole all the way thru. YMMV
There are many reasons I won't buy a brand new car and salt is one of them.
Bubbling on the lower rocker panel near the back wheel well. Being over 10 years old, im not too concerned. I will probably try to sand it and repaint to slow the rust as Id like to keep this car going another 5 years if i can.
This is what I thought I was going to do on my Buick until I actually started sanding and figured out it was coming from the other side and ended up poking a hole all the way thru. YMMV
There are many reasons I won't buy a brand new car and salt is one of them.
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Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again.
That's why I wash my cars at home, as often as necessary. Even if that means every day. Is it a pain? Absolutely. My winter driver is a vehicle I've owned for 20 years, it has spent every winter on heavily salted roads. It is rust free, with the exception of some light surface rust on the exhaust system.
I've considered moving to another locale where Salt or even snow is only a memory. Every time I do consider it, I remember the negatives of those places, and the current home wins out. That may change someday.
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again.
That's why I wash my cars at home, as often as necessary. Even if that means every day. Is it a pain? Absolutely. My winter driver is a vehicle I've owned for 20 years, it has spent every winter on heavily salted roads. It is rust free, with the exception of some light surface rust on the exhaust system.
I've considered moving to another locale where Salt or even snow is only a memory. Every time I do consider it, I remember the negatives of those places, and the current home wins out. That may change someday.
Originally Posted By: fenixguy
+1 All washing does is reactivate the dried salt and calcium chloride that's stuck to the bottom of the car. If we have a week or two of above average weather and it's rained enough to "wash" the roads off, I might run my cars through an automatic. Other than that, wait until spring and give them a good cleaning. My first vehicle was a '93 Toyota pickup 4x4. It was driven all year long (it's all I had and great in the snow). I washed it religiously every week or two. It had holes rusted through the frame after 7 years and was perfect when I got it.
While all that may be somewhat true, I don't just wash my car once in the winter, typically a couple of times after a storm for the reasons mentioned earlier. The first wash will probably get 80-90% of the salt off and then it gets salted up again when you're driving afterwards but it still takes a few days. After a couple days, the roads are usually dry enough that the 2nd wash gets rid of the rest of the salt. And yes I try to wait til it's warmer before getting it washed. They use hot water so it's fine washing it even when it's below freezing. The key is to wipe it down afterwards as it gets colder afterwards. If you don't then the doors end up frozen the next day. The car wash I use has some rust inhibitor for their undercarriage wash. One car I had lasted 15 years, never got the rusted wheel wells other cars of the same vintage had. So in the winter I probably wash it 2-4 times a month so it's more like a half a dozen to a dozen washes in the winter. One or two after the winter probably doesn't do as much. The local car wash does a free wash after 4 days so it's not as expensive as you think.
+1 All washing does is reactivate the dried salt and calcium chloride that's stuck to the bottom of the car. If we have a week or two of above average weather and it's rained enough to "wash" the roads off, I might run my cars through an automatic. Other than that, wait until spring and give them a good cleaning. My first vehicle was a '93 Toyota pickup 4x4. It was driven all year long (it's all I had and great in the snow). I washed it religiously every week or two. It had holes rusted through the frame after 7 years and was perfect when I got it.
While all that may be somewhat true, I don't just wash my car once in the winter, typically a couple of times after a storm for the reasons mentioned earlier. The first wash will probably get 80-90% of the salt off and then it gets salted up again when you're driving afterwards but it still takes a few days. After a couple days, the roads are usually dry enough that the 2nd wash gets rid of the rest of the salt. And yes I try to wait til it's warmer before getting it washed. They use hot water so it's fine washing it even when it's below freezing. The key is to wipe it down afterwards as it gets colder afterwards. If you don't then the doors end up frozen the next day. The car wash I use has some rust inhibitor for their undercarriage wash. One car I had lasted 15 years, never got the rusted wheel wells other cars of the same vintage had. So in the winter I probably wash it 2-4 times a month so it's more like a half a dozen to a dozen washes in the winter. One or two after the winter probably doesn't do as much. The local car wash does a free wash after 4 days so it's not as expensive as you think.
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again.
That's why I wash my cars at home, as often as necessary. Even if that means every day. Is it a pain? Absolutely. My winter driver is a vehicle I've owned for 20 years, it has spent every winter on heavily salted roads. It is rust free, with the exception of some light surface rust on the exhaust system.
I've considered moving to another locale where Salt or even snow is only a memory. Every time I do consider it, I remember the negatives of those places, and the current home wins out. That may change someday.
Where are the Canyons?
Sounds more Western than rust belt.
Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again.
That's why I wash my cars at home, as often as necessary. Even if that means every day. Is it a pain? Absolutely. My winter driver is a vehicle I've owned for 20 years, it has spent every winter on heavily salted roads. It is rust free, with the exception of some light surface rust on the exhaust system.
I've considered moving to another locale where Salt or even snow is only a memory. Every time I do consider it, I remember the negatives of those places, and the current home wins out. That may change someday.
Where are the Canyons?
Sounds more Western than rust belt.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: fenixguy
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
It's my experience as well.
Plus, most of the car wash stations have to recycle their waste water to some extent, so unless they use reverse osmosis to filter their water, which is quite costly, salt is already diluted in the "clean" water.
+1 All washing does is reactivate the dried salt and calcium chloride that's stuck to the bottom of the car. If we have a week or two of above average weather and it's rained enough to "wash" the roads off, I might run my cars through an automatic. Other than that, wait until spring and give them a good cleaning. My first vehicle was a '93 Toyota pickup 4x4. It was driven all year long (it's all I had and great in the snow). I washed it religiously every week or two. It had holes rusted through the frame after 7 years and was perfect when I got it.
While all that may be somewhat true, I don't just wash my car once in the winter, typically a couple of times after a storm for the reasons mentioned earlier. The first wash will probably get 80-90% of the salt off and then it gets salted up again when you're driving afterwards but it still takes a few days. After a couple days, the roads are usually dry enough that the 2nd wash gets rid of the rest of the salt. And yes I try to wait til it's warmer before getting it washed. They use hot water so it's fine washing it even when it's below freezing. The key is to wipe it down afterwards as it gets colder afterwards. If you don't then the doors end up frozen the next day. The car wash I use has some rust inhibitor for their undercarriage wash. One car I had lasted 15 years, never got the rusted wheel wells other cars of the same vintage had. So in the winter I probably wash it 2-4 times a month so it's more like a half a dozen to a dozen washes in the winter. One or two after the winter probably doesn't do as much. The local car wash does a free wash after 4 days so it's not as expensive as you think.
They were not using Mag Chloride 15 years ago or whenever your old car lasted 15 years.
The new "salts" are much worse oxidizers.
And hot water speeds up that process. The proper method to wash off salt is cold water.
I am just hazarding a guess here but rinsing in a high pH water would be beneficial.
Having a garage is about the only way to prolong the life of a vehicle in the rust belt other than parking it til Spring.
Originally Posted By: fenixguy
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: JTK
In regards to washing your vehicle in the winter time, I've found that to be completely useless. By the time you get home, the car is covered top/bottom again. All you can do is keep it in the cold and hope for the best. Clean it real well in the spring.
It's my experience as well.
Plus, most of the car wash stations have to recycle their waste water to some extent, so unless they use reverse osmosis to filter their water, which is quite costly, salt is already diluted in the "clean" water.
+1 All washing does is reactivate the dried salt and calcium chloride that's stuck to the bottom of the car. If we have a week or two of above average weather and it's rained enough to "wash" the roads off, I might run my cars through an automatic. Other than that, wait until spring and give them a good cleaning. My first vehicle was a '93 Toyota pickup 4x4. It was driven all year long (it's all I had and great in the snow). I washed it religiously every week or two. It had holes rusted through the frame after 7 years and was perfect when I got it.
While all that may be somewhat true, I don't just wash my car once in the winter, typically a couple of times after a storm for the reasons mentioned earlier. The first wash will probably get 80-90% of the salt off and then it gets salted up again when you're driving afterwards but it still takes a few days. After a couple days, the roads are usually dry enough that the 2nd wash gets rid of the rest of the salt. And yes I try to wait til it's warmer before getting it washed. They use hot water so it's fine washing it even when it's below freezing. The key is to wipe it down afterwards as it gets colder afterwards. If you don't then the doors end up frozen the next day. The car wash I use has some rust inhibitor for their undercarriage wash. One car I had lasted 15 years, never got the rusted wheel wells other cars of the same vintage had. So in the winter I probably wash it 2-4 times a month so it's more like a half a dozen to a dozen washes in the winter. One or two after the winter probably doesn't do as much. The local car wash does a free wash after 4 days so it's not as expensive as you think.
They were not using Mag Chloride 15 years ago or whenever your old car lasted 15 years.
The new "salts" are much worse oxidizers.
And hot water speeds up that process. The proper method to wash off salt is cold water.
I am just hazarding a guess here but rinsing in a high pH water would be beneficial.
Having a garage is about the only way to prolong the life of a vehicle in the rust belt other than parking it til Spring.
x2 on using sand. Use sand and require people to have either 4WD or snow tires (when there's X amount of snow). Don't know exactly how they monitor it, but I'd assume if you wrecked and weren't in compliance, that wouldn't be pretty. Works good out in the High Country in Colorado. Don't see why my vehicles should be subject to salt because someone bought a vehicle that can't handle snow or ice.
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Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
They were not using Mag Chloride 15 years ago or whenever your old car lasted 15 years.
The new "salts" are much worse oxidizers.
And hot water speeds up that process. The proper method to wash off salt is cold water.
I am just hazarding a guess here but rinsing in a high pH water would be beneficial.
Having a garage is about the only way to prolong the life of a vehicle in the rust belt other than parking it til Spring.
I'm not sure what they're using at the car wash. All I know is that after I wash it, the water isn't frozen and if I take 5-10 minutes to wipe it all off, it's still not frozen so it's still warmer than the ambient air temperature. Also the current car has lots of aluminum panels and hasn't started rusting badly yet. Always had some surface rust on previous cars, but usually the car wore out before it rusted out.
They were not using Mag Chloride 15 years ago or whenever your old car lasted 15 years.
The new "salts" are much worse oxidizers.
And hot water speeds up that process. The proper method to wash off salt is cold water.
I am just hazarding a guess here but rinsing in a high pH water would be beneficial.
Having a garage is about the only way to prolong the life of a vehicle in the rust belt other than parking it til Spring.
I'm not sure what they're using at the car wash. All I know is that after I wash it, the water isn't frozen and if I take 5-10 minutes to wipe it all off, it's still not frozen so it's still warmer than the ambient air temperature. Also the current car has lots of aluminum panels and hasn't started rusting badly yet. Always had some surface rust on previous cars, but usually the car wore out before it rusted out.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
You guys that live in the rust belt, I don't know what keeps you people from being flaming mad. I see a lot of cars on YouTube while watching mechanic videos and what's underneath those cars is disturbing. Layers upon layers of thick rust. When I lived on the USS Tripoli, there was a lot of rust and the tax payers paid me to run a pneumatic needle gun all day, but it was an iron boat on a saltwater ocean! I'd flip out if my car looked like that. You people really should get together and complain to your state big-wigs. Why don't they put salt on the runways ? What's keeping the airports from icing up and letting the planes slide off the runway ?
If people used proper winter tires in the rust belt, there would be less of a need for it for salt. In PA, they use crushed rock cinders, so your car gets blasted by rocks.
There is also beet juice deicers also, indicated by its more purple color.
Airports uses deicing agents on the runways as well as on the airplanes themselves.
You guys that live in the rust belt, I don't know what keeps you people from being flaming mad. I see a lot of cars on YouTube while watching mechanic videos and what's underneath those cars is disturbing. Layers upon layers of thick rust. When I lived on the USS Tripoli, there was a lot of rust and the tax payers paid me to run a pneumatic needle gun all day, but it was an iron boat on a saltwater ocean! I'd flip out if my car looked like that. You people really should get together and complain to your state big-wigs. Why don't they put salt on the runways ? What's keeping the airports from icing up and letting the planes slide off the runway ?
If people used proper winter tires in the rust belt, there would be less of a need for it for salt. In PA, they use crushed rock cinders, so your car gets blasted by rocks.
There is also beet juice deicers also, indicated by its more purple color.
Airports uses deicing agents on the runways as well as on the airplanes themselves.
Back when I started driving in 1969 when everyone had rear drive sedan we got along fine with very little salt compared to today. We didn't drive trucks, all-wheel drives, radials, ABS, stability, and on, and on. Why is it so hard for people to drive in the snow. I love driving in the snow, but they always ruin my fun by endlessly salting and salting the roads. I have seen many times when salt has iced up the roads instead. Instead of cold snow blowing off the road, it melts, then starts turn to glare ice. If they didn't pretreat all the time the roads would be snow instead of ice. I use to sometimes get up an hour before work, just for fun to drive around in fresh powder, before they turned it into salty slush.
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Originally Posted By: Wolf359
I'm not sure what they're using at the car wash. All I know is that after I wash it, the water isn't frozen and if I take 5-10 minutes to wipe it all off, it's still not frozen...
Maybe the car wash is using a brine rinse solution with a lower freezing point than 32*F.
I'm not sure what they're using at the car wash. All I know is that after I wash it, the water isn't frozen and if I take 5-10 minutes to wipe it all off, it's still not frozen...
Maybe the car wash is using a brine rinse solution with a lower freezing point than 32*F.
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: Chris142
How much more per hour do shops charge when working on a rusty mess? Some jobs may take 4x as long as they should due to rusted and damaged bolts etc.
This is normal life for us, rates are the same.
That's too bad for you.
Local shops charge us extra time for stuck or frozen bolts, nuts, alignment components, etc.
Most of the time they just want to replace the whole thing instead of mess with it. That's big $$$. Maybe that's all part of normal life. It is all part of why I got back into fixing my own, after I busted a few loose myself after the mechanic wanted extra $$$.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
How much more per hour do shops charge when working on a rusty mess? Some jobs may take 4x as long as they should due to rusted and damaged bolts etc.
This is normal life for us, rates are the same.
That's too bad for you.
Local shops charge us extra time for stuck or frozen bolts, nuts, alignment components, etc.
Most of the time they just want to replace the whole thing instead of mess with it. That's big $$$. Maybe that's all part of normal life. It is all part of why I got back into fixing my own, after I busted a few loose myself after the mechanic wanted extra $$$.
Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
x2 on using sand. Use sand and require people to have either 4WD or snow tires (when there's X amount of snow). Don't know exactly how they monitor it, but I'd assume if you wrecked and weren't in compliance, that wouldn't be pretty. Works good out in the High Country in Colorado. Don't see why my vehicles should be subject to salt because someone bought a vehicle that can't handle snow or ice.
This will be surprising to many but CO does use salt on the roadways in the mountains. Here is CDOT:
https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/faqs.html
They also allow for studded tires for the winter months.
They also have a bunch of yuppies in AWD SUVs who insist on driving to the ski areas at speeds in excess of posted limits.
That is why salt is used---because people don't want their schedules hampered in any way by being forced to modify driving habits.
The issue with CO/WY/MT is that roadway exposed to sunlight melts clear down to asphalt but where the trees or geography create shaded areas then the snow remains and also creates black ice. Strategic sanding at these transitions as well asat grade is standard practice for these crews.
WY and AK do not use salt but the sand/gravel mix results in a high incidence of cracked windshields.
x2 on using sand. Use sand and require people to have either 4WD or snow tires (when there's X amount of snow). Don't know exactly how they monitor it, but I'd assume if you wrecked and weren't in compliance, that wouldn't be pretty. Works good out in the High Country in Colorado. Don't see why my vehicles should be subject to salt because someone bought a vehicle that can't handle snow or ice.
This will be surprising to many but CO does use salt on the roadways in the mountains. Here is CDOT:
https://www.codot.gov/travel/winter-driving/faqs.html
They also allow for studded tires for the winter months.
They also have a bunch of yuppies in AWD SUVs who insist on driving to the ski areas at speeds in excess of posted limits.
That is why salt is used---because people don't want their schedules hampered in any way by being forced to modify driving habits.
The issue with CO/WY/MT is that roadway exposed to sunlight melts clear down to asphalt but where the trees or geography create shaded areas then the snow remains and also creates black ice. Strategic sanding at these transitions as well asat grade is standard practice for these crews.
WY and AK do not use salt but the sand/gravel mix results in a high incidence of cracked windshields.
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