injen cold air intake
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Hi.
An engine is only able to take in as much as it needs. When you open the throttle more, more air comes in. When you open the throttle less, less air comes in. A throttle by definition limits fluid flow - the movement of liquids and gases. So in either case, you will still experience throttling losses due to the interference of the throttle and the opening of the intake valve. A cold air intake draws cold air by extending itself downwards and away from the engine. Why? The engine produces higher-than-ambient underhood temperatures. The theory is that a colder air intake charge is denser, which means there are more molecules of oxygen available for combustion. However, colder molecules also collide at a lower rate, according to the kinetic molecular theory. So, hotter gases move faster. That is why the intake of automobiles are designed in a way to balance the movement of gases according to the throttle applied. If the intake holes are too big, then the gases will not move fast enough to produce efficient combustion at low throttle openings. If they are too small, then the gases cannot move fast enough to produce efficient combustion at higher throttle openings. Anyways, back to cold air intakes. Believe it or not, most vehicles sold on the market currently have cold air intakes. If you open up the box and remove the filter, you will see an opening that leads to a duct directed to the wheel well. This is ideal for cold air induction. A cold air intake produced by aftermarket companies are usually the same design, but introduce an open element air filter along with flashy looking tube designs. It's mainly for cosmetics. But even if you have an open element air filter, what is that going to do for you at low throttle openings? The advantages are almost nil. However, at higher throttle openings, when induction is aggressive, an open element air filter will potentially provide less restrictive air flow, thereby potentially increasing power production. However, like I said, intake design plays a larger role than a tube and a filter. Also, an aftermarket air intake may also produce a change in the resonance observed in the induction tract. This causes a change in the induction sound, usually producing a deeper sound to please the consumer. Whether it provides significant performance or not is up for grabs.
I think open element air filters provide less restrictive airflow at higher throttle openings. However, you must take into account the other factors that contribute to observable increases in performance. Intake tube materials should be composite or plastic because they have a thermal conductivity much less than shiny aluminum or steel or whatever. The ideal material, one that we see on racing motors, is carbon fiber reinforced plastic. However, it is not economically feasible for many consumers.
Anyways, if you want a significant increase in performance, I suggest you look into forced induction such as a supercharger. Unfortunately, all I really see when air intakes are changed are an increase in sound. This usually translates into a droning noise inside the cabin, which I do not like.
However, a great addition to any car is the open element air filter, which I am sure the intake comes with.
An engine is only able to take in as much as it needs. When you open the throttle more, more air comes in. When you open the throttle less, less air comes in. A throttle by definition limits fluid flow - the movement of liquids and gases. So in either case, you will still experience throttling losses due to the interference of the throttle and the opening of the intake valve. A cold air intake draws cold air by extending itself downwards and away from the engine. Why? The engine produces higher-than-ambient underhood temperatures. The theory is that a colder air intake charge is denser, which means there are more molecules of oxygen available for combustion. However, colder molecules also collide at a lower rate, according to the kinetic molecular theory. So, hotter gases move faster. That is why the intake of automobiles are designed in a way to balance the movement of gases according to the throttle applied. If the intake holes are too big, then the gases will not move fast enough to produce efficient combustion at low throttle openings. If they are too small, then the gases cannot move fast enough to produce efficient combustion at higher throttle openings. Anyways, back to cold air intakes. Believe it or not, most vehicles sold on the market currently have cold air intakes. If you open up the box and remove the filter, you will see an opening that leads to a duct directed to the wheel well. This is ideal for cold air induction. A cold air intake produced by aftermarket companies are usually the same design, but introduce an open element air filter along with flashy looking tube designs. It's mainly for cosmetics. But even if you have an open element air filter, what is that going to do for you at low throttle openings? The advantages are almost nil. However, at higher throttle openings, when induction is aggressive, an open element air filter will potentially provide less restrictive air flow, thereby potentially increasing power production. However, like I said, intake design plays a larger role than a tube and a filter. Also, an aftermarket air intake may also produce a change in the resonance observed in the induction tract. This causes a change in the induction sound, usually producing a deeper sound to please the consumer. Whether it provides significant performance or not is up for grabs.
I think open element air filters provide less restrictive airflow at higher throttle openings. However, you must take into account the other factors that contribute to observable increases in performance. Intake tube materials should be composite or plastic because they have a thermal conductivity much less than shiny aluminum or steel or whatever. The ideal material, one that we see on racing motors, is carbon fiber reinforced plastic. However, it is not economically feasible for many consumers.
Anyways, if you want a significant increase in performance, I suggest you look into forced induction such as a supercharger. Unfortunately, all I really see when air intakes are changed are an increase in sound. This usually translates into a droning noise inside the cabin, which I do not like.
However, a great addition to any car is the open element air filter, which I am sure the intake comes with.
I can't speak to the Injen product but I have a cp-e CAI on my Speed3 and I'm very pleased with it. There is plenty of documentation on fanboy sites that this product alone adds ~20hp and 20ft/lbs. The key to this product is the engineering of the MAF attachment area and this is where cp-e ex-cels. This is also why the re- branded Mazda product was problematic and eventually pulled from the market. Research carefully. Not all CAIs are created equal.
sorry, but real world dyno testing has shown me that very few cars gain much at all except noise from a CAI.
My car is rated at 425 hp and can barely get ten more from a CAI AND tuning! So please explain your 10% plus gain, as it is not in line with reality.
My car is rated at 425 hp and can barely get ten more from a CAI AND tuning! So please explain your 10% plus gain, as it is not in line with reality.
dtt004- It's never been said better!
Enough testing has been done here and there to show that many "cold" air intakes aren't. While the potential airflow is increased, actual intake air temp goes up. That may be due to metal tubes, as described above, or the design of the system allows more hot underhood air to be drawn in than did the OE system.
Enough testing has been done here and there to show that many "cold" air intakes aren't. While the potential airflow is increased, actual intake air temp goes up. That may be due to metal tubes, as described above, or the design of the system allows more hot underhood air to be drawn in than did the OE system.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
My car is rated at 425 hp and can barely get ten more from a CAI AND tuning! So please explain your 10% plus gain, as it is not in line with reality.
I'm not familiar with your particular engine. Obviously, a normally aspirated V8 is a much different intake dynamic than a blown four. With manufacturer ratings of 263/280, a 20hp/ftlb increase would be 7.6% and 7.1% respectively, not the 10+ you exaggerate. Not hard to believe at all. Since you seem to believe in dyno results, there are many examples on Mazdaspeed forums of before and after dyno runs with this mod only that produce gains close to those I've stated. I'll let you do the research as you can google as well as I.
My car is rated at 425 hp and can barely get ten more from a CAI AND tuning! So please explain your 10% plus gain, as it is not in line with reality.
I'm not familiar with your particular engine. Obviously, a normally aspirated V8 is a much different intake dynamic than a blown four. With manufacturer ratings of 263/280, a 20hp/ftlb increase would be 7.6% and 7.1% respectively, not the 10+ you exaggerate. Not hard to believe at all. Since you seem to believe in dyno results, there are many examples on Mazdaspeed forums of before and after dyno runs with this mod only that produce gains close to those I've stated. I'll let you do the research as you can google as well as I.
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IF the cold air intake actually does any good (big IF), it is only at high rpm and wide open throttle. The rest of the time it can't do anything, except make noise, as dtt clearly laid out.
The mod that really works is headers, and the longer the tubes, the better. Look at Doug Thorley's design. Send back the cold air intake and the tuner gizmo.
http://www.dougthorley.com/cartgenie/prod-152.htm
The mod that really works is headers, and the longer the tubes, the better. Look at Doug Thorley's design. Send back the cold air intake and the tuner gizmo.
http://www.dougthorley.com/cartgenie/prod-152.htm
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Originally Posted By: jdog
all i can say is i got my injin cold air intake put on and there is quit a bit of diferance at full throttle i think it is whut my titan needed too go along with the gale banks cat back and the superchips cortex that i have
Take it to the track. Try it with and without the "injen". If it goes faster with it, then it helped. If it doesn't, it didn't.
all i can say is i got my injin cold air intake put on and there is quit a bit of diferance at full throttle i think it is whut my titan needed too go along with the gale banks cat back and the superchips cortex that i have
Take it to the track. Try it with and without the "injen". If it goes faster with it, then it helped. If it doesn't, it didn't.
^+1. Great post. Simple, easy way for the layman to discern these things.
FWIW, my friend has a Titan with a nice injen CAI and it's really only helping on top of other mods. Otherwise, simply putting a CAI on an otherwise completely stock car, at least in this case, seems to yield marginal gains instead of the potential for moderate at mid-range/WOT on top of other mods/tuning etc.
FWIW, my friend has a Titan with a nice injen CAI and it's really only helping on top of other mods. Otherwise, simply putting a CAI on an otherwise completely stock car, at least in this case, seems to yield marginal gains instead of the potential for moderate at mid-range/WOT on top of other mods/tuning etc.
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I gained 25 hp at the rear wheels on my 06 Mustang GT with a JLT CAI and a custom dyno tune. This is typical on 05-09 Mustang GT's. Without a tune the increase is much smaller and probably not worth the effort. The tune also improved the throttle response and shift quality (much crisper). My car was out of warranty. We have gone back and forth on whether a tune will jeopardize your warranty but I think yes.
Originally Posted By: Old Mustang Guy
My car was out of warranty. We have gone back and forth on whether a tune will jeopardize your warranty but I think yes.
Yeah if your tune causes something else to go bad then they wont on honor the warranty on that part.
My car was out of warranty. We have gone back and forth on whether a tune will jeopardize your warranty but I think yes.
Yeah if your tune causes something else to go bad then they wont on honor the warranty on that part.
That's why you flash it back to OE program before you take it to the dealer.
I would return the intake (stone catcher)and spend the money on something else.
My understanding is that your whole system needs to match in order for things to work, that means intake, header, cat back, muffler, and maybe cam and tune as well.
Only adding a CAI that suck in air from fender is not very useful, and would add hydro lock risk if you drive in heavy rain and standing water. If you add everything above and a tune, you may get some top end HP at the expense of middle range HP. It is probably fun but won't do you much good in overall performance.
Those under the hood short intake is called ramp air, not cold air, and is totally useless because it suck in hot under hood air.
Only adding a CAI that suck in air from fender is not very useful, and would add hydro lock risk if you drive in heavy rain and standing water. If you add everything above and a tune, you may get some top end HP at the expense of middle range HP. It is probably fun but won't do you much good in overall performance.
Those under the hood short intake is called ramp air, not cold air, and is totally useless because it suck in hot under hood air.
You are correct PandaBear but a good tuner can tailor a tune that gives better power in more than just high end. I had already added a free flow axle back exhaust and then had the CAI and the tune done at the same time. I told the tuner (who is an expert on Mustangs) that I wanted an "89 torque tune". I wanted to be able to run 89 octane or a mix of 89 and 93 with a good margin for error. He tuned it so that the torque starts to come on early (at about 1500 rpm) and then stayed high almost to red line. The car is so much more responsive than before. It chirps the tires on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift (automatic).
I'm actually doing a bit of experimenting with part of this whole "Cold Air Intake" debacle.
I can't remember where, but I'll try and find the results as it's not a good statement without the source, but a lot of the gains from the CAI's seem to be more from the tubing itself than the actual new filter element in its new exposed environment. I'll have to find it, but I know there was a test on a dodge viper that showed that the stock intake tubing robbed 10hp by itself. There was another documented case that the stock air filter has more than enough flow to provide twice the amount of air that the engine demands, the intake size just needs to be changed to allow intake of said amount of air.
Stock intake tubing isn't designed for the best flow. Most of them are designed to baffle intake noise at the cost of flow for functionality. They're designed to be flexible, and dampen noise.
Right now I've taken some tubing and modified my stock air box for testing. In theory, the engine should have less load with a smooth piped intake system than one that creates lots of turbulence.
While the throttle plate is still the limiting factor for flow, removing any other obstacles that the engine has overcome to get the air to the throttle body should help with engine load for a given throttle position, resulting in a more efficient engine. Not necessarily after power here.
Just an experiment. I don't have a dyno or anything, but I will use fuel economy passes to see. Might be too many variables, but It was fun to do anyway. I'm also trying to take the baffle that takes air in from near the headlight and making it so that when at cruising speed, the vehicles movement at 60 mph (Or whatever the speed) can get directly channeled into the airbox. It's basically just making a ram-air intake by cutting the front of the baffle off so that air goes directly into the throat of the baffle and into the airbox. I've already took the dremel to it, It just needs to go back in
I can't remember where, but I'll try and find the results as it's not a good statement without the source, but a lot of the gains from the CAI's seem to be more from the tubing itself than the actual new filter element in its new exposed environment. I'll have to find it, but I know there was a test on a dodge viper that showed that the stock intake tubing robbed 10hp by itself. There was another documented case that the stock air filter has more than enough flow to provide twice the amount of air that the engine demands, the intake size just needs to be changed to allow intake of said amount of air.
Stock intake tubing isn't designed for the best flow. Most of them are designed to baffle intake noise at the cost of flow for functionality. They're designed to be flexible, and dampen noise.
Right now I've taken some tubing and modified my stock air box for testing. In theory, the engine should have less load with a smooth piped intake system than one that creates lots of turbulence.
While the throttle plate is still the limiting factor for flow, removing any other obstacles that the engine has overcome to get the air to the throttle body should help with engine load for a given throttle position, resulting in a more efficient engine. Not necessarily after power here.
Just an experiment. I don't have a dyno or anything, but I will use fuel economy passes to see. Might be too many variables, but It was fun to do anyway. I'm also trying to take the baffle that takes air in from near the headlight and making it so that when at cruising speed, the vehicles movement at 60 mph (Or whatever the speed) can get directly channeled into the airbox. It's basically just making a ram-air intake by cutting the front of the baffle off so that air goes directly into the throat of the baffle and into the airbox. I've already took the dremel to it, It just needs to go back in
Too many generalities being expressed here. It's all application specific. Some stock systems are pretty good, some suck. There are good aftermarket systems out there and bad ones. Some deliver some don't. Some that deliver offer only fractional gains. Advertised testing is usually "best case scenario" results.
PandaBear's situation, IMHO, is one where an improved intake can show gains... rather not show losses. When you increase the VE of an engine, such as from tuning and other mods, the stock system is no longer capable of enough airflow to supply the engine. The intake becomes part of the equation of part necessary necessary for power production and to make the equation deliver the right answer.
IMO, in most cases (and I add to the generalities here), a so called "CAI" is far from the best first power mod. They are next to ineffective on an otherwise stock engine (assuming they are even properly designed... many are not). As it was said above, it's all about the plumbing. Unless we are talking really bad old filters (oil bath for example) you could make any media to work as long as it was sized and sited properly.
PandaBear's situation, IMHO, is one where an improved intake can show gains... rather not show losses. When you increase the VE of an engine, such as from tuning and other mods, the stock system is no longer capable of enough airflow to supply the engine. The intake becomes part of the equation of part necessary necessary for power production and to make the equation deliver the right answer.
IMO, in most cases (and I add to the generalities here), a so called "CAI" is far from the best first power mod. They are next to ineffective on an otherwise stock engine (assuming they are even properly designed... many are not). As it was said above, it's all about the plumbing. Unless we are talking really bad old filters (oil bath for example) you could make any media to work as long as it was sized and sited properly.
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