You need to get a C4 or C5 Corvette up off the ground to change the oil. Lift, custom ramps or jack and stands. I'm retired and change my own oil. Extended change intervals are a good thing on a Corvette, even if your labor is free.
I think I'm a stick in the mud... :(
- Thread starter fuel tanker man
- Start date
- Status
Makes sense to me.
The folks who have to make a profit every day understand the cost/value relationship. That's why the big fleets don't use syns.
To further elaborate on the dino oil use in the large fleet trucking companies...
Most of these companies don't keep their trucks on the road any longer than 600 to 750 thousand miles. Many (like us) change out at 500K miles.
I feel sure that if one were to plan on getting a million or more miles on an engine that synthetic would be the way to go (even though there are many million mile engines out there which have been run on dino only).
By the time a road tractor has about 700K on the odometer it's pretty much ragged out (unless it has been meticulously maintained by a single owner). The doors seals are shot, the windows won't seal or operate in many cases, the dashboard and controls are broken and loose, the seats are totally gone unless they've been replaced. Things rattle and vibrate and shake and squeak and pop... you get the picture. So even if the engine is still in great shape the cab and chassis system is on its last leg. And as mentioned by someone earlier, a well maintained engine with 400 dollar oil changes throughout its life won't help the trade value of the truck one iota in most cases. So dino gets the nod here...
Dan
Most of these companies don't keep their trucks on the road any longer than 600 to 750 thousand miles. Many (like us) change out at 500K miles.
I feel sure that if one were to plan on getting a million or more miles on an engine that synthetic would be the way to go (even though there are many million mile engines out there which have been run on dino only).
By the time a road tractor has about 700K on the odometer it's pretty much ragged out (unless it has been meticulously maintained by a single owner). The doors seals are shot, the windows won't seal or operate in many cases, the dashboard and controls are broken and loose, the seats are totally gone unless they've been replaced. Things rattle and vibrate and shake and squeak and pop... you get the picture. So even if the engine is still in great shape the cab and chassis system is on its last leg. And as mentioned by someone earlier, a well maintained engine with 400 dollar oil changes throughout its life won't help the trade value of the truck one iota in most cases. So dino gets the nod here...
Dan
3 quick points:
You can manipulate the ocis of syn and dino to prove whatever cost-effectivesness you want. The only way to compare is to count up the ppm of wear metals in multiple changes of dino and see how long that corresponds with for syn. That would pretty much show no benefit and additional cost.
If GM required any particular oil for Corvette, it would have to be supplied free during warranty as per Moss-Magnusen Act.
If Ground Chuck is $1.29 a pound and Fillet Mignon is $4.99, the Fillet Mignon needs to taste WAY better to the average person to make them want it, not a taste a 'lil better.
[ September 09, 2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
You can manipulate the ocis of syn and dino to prove whatever cost-effectivesness you want. The only way to compare is to count up the ppm of wear metals in multiple changes of dino and see how long that corresponds with for syn. That would pretty much show no benefit and additional cost.
If GM required any particular oil for Corvette, it would have to be supplied free during warranty as per Moss-Magnusen Act.
If Ground Chuck is $1.29 a pound and Fillet Mignon is $4.99, the Fillet Mignon needs to taste WAY better to the average person to make them want it, not a taste a 'lil better.
[ September 09, 2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
AJ -- I guess I'm picking on you today. . .
As to your second comment, alas that should be true, but as always, there's a key exception. Although I am an attorney, I feel hobbled since I've temporarily suspended my Westlaw subscription while I'm back on active duty (it's around $200 per month for the basic package
Hey AJ, no fair, you added a third point while I was tearing into your initial two. Since there's blood in the water, I ain't stoppin'. . .
Neighbor A calls over the fence and says, "Hey AJ, we're doing filets on the barbie tonight, come on over and join us!" The light fragrance of quality beef over open flame sweetens the air.
Neighbor B calls over the fence and says, "Hey AJ, we're tasting motor oil over here tonight, come on over and join us!" An odd odor, somewhere between oil refinery and sticky, animal-shaped candy makes its appearance in your nose.
Pretending for a moment that your not a BITOG member (who uses GC no less), where are you going? OK, I admit, it's not the most logical question ever posed, but the point is, we are talking different commodities used for different purposes. I can handle an occasional lump of cheap protein, but when it comes to protecting my expensive, high-performance engine, I'm just not playing with dino to save less than $20 per oil change.
EDIT -- I overlooked the obvious. Generally, the filet is way, way better than the cheap chuck.
[ September 09, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
Neighbor A calls over the fence and says, "Hey AJ, we're doing filets on the barbie tonight, come on over and join us!" The light fragrance of quality beef over open flame sweetens the air.
Neighbor B calls over the fence and says, "Hey AJ, we're tasting motor oil over here tonight, come on over and join us!" An odd odor, somewhere between oil refinery and sticky, animal-shaped candy makes its appearance in your nose.
Pretending for a moment that your not a BITOG member (who uses GC no less), where are you going? OK, I admit, it's not the most logical question ever posed, but the point is, we are talking different commodities used for different purposes. I can handle an occasional lump of cheap protein, but when it comes to protecting my expensive, high-performance engine, I'm just not playing with dino to save less than $20 per oil change.
EDIT -- I overlooked the obvious. Generally, the filet is way, way better than the cheap chuck.
[ September 09, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
I realize that the joys of this board consist of getting to express one's opinion or generate debate or just engage in cameraderie, but I have to admit I really don't see the point of this thread that some seem to think should qualify for an "Oil Can" or whatever oil board academy award or Pulitzer equivalents are called. If you don't think syn is worth it don't use it; if you don't like to order things off the internet, then don't do it. It's that simple.
PS Drew99GT: thank you.
PS Drew99GT: thank you.
Well, this one certainly veered into an uncommon level of detail. On the other hand, if it is that simple, then, ummmmm, why bother having such a forum in the first place??? When I joined here six months ago, I used synthetic oils in everything and considered those who didn't to be simple-minded luddites. Both the discussions ( especially the colorful ones) and the objective data found here have moderated my view. And if certain debates (such as syn vs. dino) must, after a certain time
end, then ultimately won't the forum necessarily die out? We can't let that happen.
Second, as I sit here confined to my quarters by a malicious virus of some sort, and undoubtedly impaired by the medication meant to ease my suffering, I'm finding myself thinking, "hmmmmm, isn't pscholte raising this particular issue virtually a poster child case of the pot calling the kettle . . . green."
ek...quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
Well, this one certainly veered into an uncommon level of detail. On the other hand, if it is that simple, then, ummmmm, why bother having such a forum in the first place??? When I joined here six months ago, I used synthetic oils in everything and considered those who didn't to be simple-minded luddites. Both the discussions ( especially the colorful ones) and the objective data found here have moderated my view. And if certain debates (such as syn vs. dino) must, after a certain time
end, then ultimately won't the forum necessarily die out? We can't let that happen.
Second, as I sit here confined to my quarters by a malicious virus of some sort, and undoubtedly impaired by the medication meant to ease my suffering, I'm finding myself thinking, "hmmmmm, isn't pscholte raising this particular issue virtually a poster child case of the pot calling the kettle . . . green.". You know what I mean. . . But of course, you're right, this one has probably gone far enough.
Point taken...but invoking the Elixer of Peaceful, Creative and Colorful dialogue against me...ouch...
wait a minute there..bad example..That's the thing, we are not Corvette owners. how many of the board members drive corvettes, vipers, Hummers, and typical high end luxury cars??quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
[QUOTE
A question for you dino believers: should a Corvette owner, whose manual requires the use of synthetic oil just blow that off and use cheap dino since he can save a few bucks in the short term by doing so??? Were the 'vette engineers just huffing gas fumes when they came up with the syn requirement? Please, everyone, use whatever makes you feel right about your car, but you'll need ice skates in he!! before you catch me putting $0.36 per qt coupon dino oil in my G35 that I drive hard in the hot, hot deep south.
the original poster drives a 1993 Ford escort with 163k miles. I view this thread more as the working class thread (not a put down)where they put their hard earned money elsewhere instead of boutique syn oils. they have less money to splurge especially for a luxury make
I'll give you another viewpoint. 20 extra oil changes sounds alot more doesn't it? ya, one extra oil change a year for 20 years. one extra a year. not unreasonable to mequote:
Originally posted by jsharp:
Interesting thread -
With a 5 quart system using $1 a quart dino changed at 3000 miles using a $3 filter, the cost of oil and filters for 200K miles = 67 changes at $8 each for $536 total.
Same 5 quart system, same $3 filter, but using $5 a quart synthetic changed at 10K miles. Going 200K miles = 20 changes at $28 each for $560.
Anyone want to come over and change my oil 47 extra times for the $24 difference? I'll buy the oil and filter, all you have to do is change it.
Ok, so maybe I should extend the dino interval to 5000 miles. In 200K miles I'd now be looking at 40 changes at $8 each for a total of $320. Wow, I've "saved" $240. Again, anyone want to come over and do 20 extra oil changes for me for $240? Hey, you'll be "making" $12 per change. Is that OK money to you?
Hold on AJ -- are you saying that for a synthetic to be "worth it" it has to deliver miracles??? Personally, I'd just settle for some additional performance. In my case, I'm presently driving almost 40k miles per year. Typical dino OCIs would result in me visiting an oil change place (or the dealer) almost every other weekend. For the time I get back from using moderately extended OCIs alone, the syns are worth it. Then of course, there's the added margin for safety if my car should overheat. And so forth.
I guess the problem I've got is that, with all due respect, I think your being unfair to the syns. You set up an impossible standard (delivery of miracles) which no product can satisfy at any price (except Synlube, of course, which you never have to change. . .
Maybe the most frustrating thing about this otherwise great site is how everyone has their opinion about what oil/type of oil is best, and then they seem to feel that everyone else who doesn't share that same opinion is a moron. A question for you dino believers: should a Corvette owner, whose manual requires the use of synthetic oil just blow that off and use cheap dino since he can save a few bucks in the short term by doing so??? Were the 'vette engineers just huffing gas fumes when they came up with the syn requirement? Please, everyone, use whatever makes you feel right about your car, but you'll need ice skates in he!! before you catch me putting $0.36 per qt coupon dino oil in my G35 that I drive hard in the hot, hot deep south.
I still don't understand the 'ONLY synthetic or dino' choice when a blend seems to be the ticket for most people. If you want to use a synthetic but don't want to pay 4x to 5x the price for an oil change, especially if you need to change at fixed intervals for warranty purposes regardless of oil type, try a blend. I use 25% Mobil 1 Truck & SUV in my diesel as it helps to quieten the minor engine ticks and such, and have been using a 20% synthetic blend in both sedans for awhile now. I'll go to 33% in the truck and 40% (2 qts instead of 1) in both sedans this winter. The synthetic blend made a noticeable difference in how the older car runs, so I'll keep it up.
From what I've seen so far an ideal oil for the cars might be a blend of Mobil 1 Truck & SUV 5W-40 with Delvac 10W-30.
From what I've seen so far an ideal oil for the cars might be a blend of Mobil 1 Truck & SUV 5W-40 with Delvac 10W-30.
Ive certainly learned a lot since coming here and beginning the journey of learning about how motor oil affects vehicles.
It would be an interesting debate as to whether or not or not a premium oil helps a vehicle over a premium filter.
A good question for the stick in the muds would be the ethical reasoning behind motor oil changes.
Many times I hear people say that they dont care what motor oil they are going to use because they plan on trading in their car after the warranty expires or before the car hits the 100K level.
Somehow, it bothers me to not take care of things. We live in a disposable world and a disposable society. If something breaks then we buy a new one or try and pawn the old one off on an unsuspecting buyer.
My sister thinks that cars are meant to be traded in at 3 years or 50K miles and wasting money on oil changes or topoffs is a bad idea. She can save that money towards the purchase of a new car. Her cars are lucky to get 3 oil changes between purchase and 50K miles and those usually happen when Dad comes by for a visit. The problems are compounded because she drives like a wounded banshee. 100K miles for her is a target I doubt she will ever achieve on a vehicle.
I doubt that it costs more than $500 extra to go with a quality synthetics and filters over dino / fram oil changes over the course of a 100K interval. Many here find they can save money by doing the oil changes themselves and spending the extra money on parts by saving on labor rather than going to jiffy lube.
A good question is whether a vehicle thats been properly maintained will hold an extra $500 - $1000 of value when sold at the 100K mile level. Her 50K and out plan works but I feel sorry for the purchasers of her used cars.
Sometimes sadly cars get totalled by insurance adjusters and those guys go right by the blue book value and they wont give you a penny extra if youve been running Royal Purple in your car exclusively. Synthetic oil changes dont matter to insurance adjusters. Most consumers or purchasers of used cars dont care about oil and will look askance if you show them records of used oil analysis. They often seem to prefer $1000 in pocket rather than paying extra for a truck with pristine maintenance records. It angers me that my cars value is reduced by others that just dont care about their own cars. Sometimes you dont have a choice in when, where or how you sell your car. Accidents happen. Life throws unexpected events your way. And you adapt.
Ive reached the point where I cringe at buying new vehicles. The price seems to go up every year and the trend doesnt want to stop. I cringe more at the thought of buying a used car. There are too many people like my sister that trade off cars rather than let it become a problem. Id rather put money in a stealerships pocket than to buy a car with a history that I dont know. There is a reason that the used car industry is regarded as being shady.
What is to do? For me the answer is to buy a car and try and get 15-20 years out of it. My current vehicle is 11 years old (soon to be 12) and its time to make it a second vehicle and purchase a new #1. I know my #2 will have 50K - 100K miles left in its lifespan and I dont plan on owning the car that long but finding someone to give me even $1500 for the thing is difficult. At least I might get 3 years and 30K out of it before I part with it for $500. For me the cutoff point becomes the day the value of the car is lower than the price to insure it (liability only). When that happens the car goes away even if the wheels havent fallen off of it.
I dont know how much new cars will be in another 12 years when I look to replace the vehicle I soon intend to buy but Im guessing they wont be cheap.
People who dont maintain cars and lower the mileage expectations because of poor service and rough driving conditions certainly help to drag down life expectancy of cars and the blue book used car values of them. If my sisters cars only last 100K miles before they hit the junkyard then she destroys the value of a BITOG members car that makes it to 200K so the actuarial life span of an "average" car holds steady at 150K. For every BITOG member there are 10 drivers like my sister.
I dont fault those uninformed about the merits of oil / filters and other maintanence as it takes time and money to educate yourself as to the merits of service.
I am bothered by the lack of morality and respect by those that just dont care and are eager and willing to pass along problems that they contributed to by not caring for their cars.
If someone says that their car has 100K plus miles and they are going to drive the thing until the wheels fall off and they dont want to put extra money into higher priced oils then Im ok with it. Its their car and they have to make the decisions they feel works for them.
If someone buys a new car and says they plan on infrequent oil changes and then with the cheapest oil they can buy then its a problem. They are planning on pawning off their problems to others and it hurts the resale value and bluebook value of cars because the adjusters and actuaries who establish value consider the "average" expected lifespan of a car when establishing value and thats the value that holds in the used car market.
In other words, if I buy a new car and drive it for 3-4 years and keep it perfectly maintained and a drunk drives into me and totals my car. Then the value of my car is reduced by a large amount by those that didnt maintain their cars and didnt care.
Maybe cars are cheap and disposable like razor blades to some. I think in 10 years it will be a privelage to own a new car. I can remember the days when everyone in my neighborhood bought a new car about once every 2-3 years. Now we see a new car on my street about once per 5 years. We see maybe a couple of purchased used cars every 2-3 years but there are a lot of 10 year old vehicles in driveways. I live in a typical middle class neighborhood with 2 neighbors behind and next to me owning pools.
I dont have the answer to all the questions of morality. I imagine that as car prices rise that more people will drive used cars. I imagine that people who dont take care of their cars will drive down the prices of used cars at the detriment of those of us who care about cars. I imagine that as modern cars improve that more cars will die from wrecks than "wearing out".
In my own world of being a stick in the mud. I want to keep a car in perfect condition. I owe it to others who need high resale values for their cars. I owe it to the next guy that buys or drives my car after I move on to my next car. If I sell a car after 5 / 10 / 15 years then I want the guy who purchases the car to get a good deal. I want him to remember me fondly as a guy he can trust and a good guy. I dont want to sell a lemon and lick my greedy chops and think that I got away with ripping off somebody uninformed.
We are talking oil and not holding up liquor stores but I just feel that if one is blessed to have something nice such as a car or truck they love that they have a moral responsibility to take care of it rather than needing to determine when the best time is to find a fool willing to buy it from them.
Even so, I had one friend whose engine died at 46K miles and who got caught with his pants down having had his engine die during the time after his warranty expired and before he planned to trade it in. Im glad that Ive never had this problem. Ive only had one car die from engine failure and it went 100K past its expected engine life.
I hope others feel the same and car care improves. It benefits us all even if we never sell or total a car and drive them until the wheels fall off.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
It would be an interesting debate as to whether or not or not a premium oil helps a vehicle over a premium filter.
A good question for the stick in the muds would be the ethical reasoning behind motor oil changes.
Many times I hear people say that they dont care what motor oil they are going to use because they plan on trading in their car after the warranty expires or before the car hits the 100K level.
Somehow, it bothers me to not take care of things. We live in a disposable world and a disposable society. If something breaks then we buy a new one or try and pawn the old one off on an unsuspecting buyer.
My sister thinks that cars are meant to be traded in at 3 years or 50K miles and wasting money on oil changes or topoffs is a bad idea. She can save that money towards the purchase of a new car. Her cars are lucky to get 3 oil changes between purchase and 50K miles and those usually happen when Dad comes by for a visit. The problems are compounded because she drives like a wounded banshee. 100K miles for her is a target I doubt she will ever achieve on a vehicle.
I doubt that it costs more than $500 extra to go with a quality synthetics and filters over dino / fram oil changes over the course of a 100K interval. Many here find they can save money by doing the oil changes themselves and spending the extra money on parts by saving on labor rather than going to jiffy lube.
A good question is whether a vehicle thats been properly maintained will hold an extra $500 - $1000 of value when sold at the 100K mile level. Her 50K and out plan works but I feel sorry for the purchasers of her used cars.
Sometimes sadly cars get totalled by insurance adjusters and those guys go right by the blue book value and they wont give you a penny extra if youve been running Royal Purple in your car exclusively. Synthetic oil changes dont matter to insurance adjusters. Most consumers or purchasers of used cars dont care about oil and will look askance if you show them records of used oil analysis. They often seem to prefer $1000 in pocket rather than paying extra for a truck with pristine maintenance records. It angers me that my cars value is reduced by others that just dont care about their own cars. Sometimes you dont have a choice in when, where or how you sell your car. Accidents happen. Life throws unexpected events your way. And you adapt.
Ive reached the point where I cringe at buying new vehicles. The price seems to go up every year and the trend doesnt want to stop. I cringe more at the thought of buying a used car. There are too many people like my sister that trade off cars rather than let it become a problem. Id rather put money in a stealerships pocket than to buy a car with a history that I dont know. There is a reason that the used car industry is regarded as being shady.
What is to do? For me the answer is to buy a car and try and get 15-20 years out of it. My current vehicle is 11 years old (soon to be 12) and its time to make it a second vehicle and purchase a new #1. I know my #2 will have 50K - 100K miles left in its lifespan and I dont plan on owning the car that long but finding someone to give me even $1500 for the thing is difficult. At least I might get 3 years and 30K out of it before I part with it for $500. For me the cutoff point becomes the day the value of the car is lower than the price to insure it (liability only). When that happens the car goes away even if the wheels havent fallen off of it.
I dont know how much new cars will be in another 12 years when I look to replace the vehicle I soon intend to buy but Im guessing they wont be cheap.
People who dont maintain cars and lower the mileage expectations because of poor service and rough driving conditions certainly help to drag down life expectancy of cars and the blue book used car values of them. If my sisters cars only last 100K miles before they hit the junkyard then she destroys the value of a BITOG members car that makes it to 200K so the actuarial life span of an "average" car holds steady at 150K. For every BITOG member there are 10 drivers like my sister.
I dont fault those uninformed about the merits of oil / filters and other maintanence as it takes time and money to educate yourself as to the merits of service.
I am bothered by the lack of morality and respect by those that just dont care and are eager and willing to pass along problems that they contributed to by not caring for their cars.
If someone says that their car has 100K plus miles and they are going to drive the thing until the wheels fall off and they dont want to put extra money into higher priced oils then Im ok with it. Its their car and they have to make the decisions they feel works for them.
If someone buys a new car and says they plan on infrequent oil changes and then with the cheapest oil they can buy then its a problem. They are planning on pawning off their problems to others and it hurts the resale value and bluebook value of cars because the adjusters and actuaries who establish value consider the "average" expected lifespan of a car when establishing value and thats the value that holds in the used car market.
In other words, if I buy a new car and drive it for 3-4 years and keep it perfectly maintained and a drunk drives into me and totals my car. Then the value of my car is reduced by a large amount by those that didnt maintain their cars and didnt care.
Maybe cars are cheap and disposable like razor blades to some. I think in 10 years it will be a privelage to own a new car. I can remember the days when everyone in my neighborhood bought a new car about once every 2-3 years. Now we see a new car on my street about once per 5 years. We see maybe a couple of purchased used cars every 2-3 years but there are a lot of 10 year old vehicles in driveways. I live in a typical middle class neighborhood with 2 neighbors behind and next to me owning pools.
I dont have the answer to all the questions of morality. I imagine that as car prices rise that more people will drive used cars. I imagine that people who dont take care of their cars will drive down the prices of used cars at the detriment of those of us who care about cars. I imagine that as modern cars improve that more cars will die from wrecks than "wearing out".
In my own world of being a stick in the mud. I want to keep a car in perfect condition. I owe it to others who need high resale values for their cars. I owe it to the next guy that buys or drives my car after I move on to my next car. If I sell a car after 5 / 10 / 15 years then I want the guy who purchases the car to get a good deal. I want him to remember me fondly as a guy he can trust and a good guy. I dont want to sell a lemon and lick my greedy chops and think that I got away with ripping off somebody uninformed.
We are talking oil and not holding up liquor stores but I just feel that if one is blessed to have something nice such as a car or truck they love that they have a moral responsibility to take care of it rather than needing to determine when the best time is to find a fool willing to buy it from them.
Even so, I had one friend whose engine died at 46K miles and who got caught with his pants down having had his engine die during the time after his warranty expired and before he planned to trade it in. Im glad that Ive never had this problem. Ive only had one car die from engine failure and it went 100K past its expected engine life.
I hope others feel the same and car care improves. It benefits us all even if we never sell or total a car and drive them until the wheels fall off.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
TOE, with all due respect, your post has more holes in it than an airy block of swiss cheese. First, yes, one can always get screwed engaging in e-commerce. That said, security has improved greatly in the last few years. I've ordered all manner of things on-line, including oil, and saved a huge amount of time doing so. Knock on wood, I've not been victimized yet. And yes, the restaurant waiter is a much bigger threat to your credit card.
Second, getting oil on-line, and then delivered to my front door is a tremendous convenience. I do about 1/3 of my oil changes myself. By combining to-home delivery with a DIY change, I reduce the total time expended on an oil change to, oh, about ten minutes, TOTAL.
Third, you can not legitimately generalize that some member, "proved Chevron Supreme out performed Mobil 1" from one UOA (or any other test for that matter). Check out these two UOAs taken from Toyota 4.7L V-8 engines:
From my 2001 Sequoia, using Mobil-1
From another member's 4.7L V-8, this with Chevron Supreme
I guess I've "proven" that Mobil-1 outperforms Chevron Supreme!!! Look at those superior Mobil-1 numbers from the same type engine.
Sorry for piling on... Welcome to the forum.
Hey, I never said that! My opinion on that is new dino/HC oil can be used where engineers once specified low-grade synthetic. I can think of only a few instances where synthetic is required by the mfg. Usually there are mfg specs to cover the oil and the product itself is supplied for free during warranty period. Is that the case with 'Vette or is M1 simply factory-fill? Either way it is a specialty enthusisiat car where performance can be affected drasticly by poor oil and cost is less of an object.
15w-40 Delvac in a 'Vette? Bring it on, I use in it my 30v Audi. It's probally better than the old SG synthetics from the owners' manual. I would not use it in an S4 twin-turbo though. Different products for different cars and owners.
I did not set an impossibly high standard with the "miracles" thing, that is what average Joe expects from commercials etc.. I have a close family member who screwed up her 1.8t on dino oil at irregular intervals and a friend who did the same thing on Mobil 1 at 1/yr intervals. Who knows the shop probally gagged her for the money. No sluge, that would be a miracle. These engines WILL run on dino at 3000 miles and "dino" is getting better all the time.
I don't agree that it's a bad example, just a particular one. It was offered in response to often-seen argument to the effect that it's foolish to use expensive synthetics, period. My point is that while dino may be the best choice for certain situations, synthetics are better for others, and actually mandatory in some. M1 has been installed in 'vettes for over ten years now, so there are plenty of "working class" guys out there who've saved up for their dream 'vette, and now have it, so this particular situation is something they ought to be considering too. One poster in this thread even mentioned a customer of his who elected to use Wolf's Head in his 'vette, and apparently got away with it. All the more relevance.
Well, cute, by approximately doubling my OCI with the synthetics I cut the roughly 10 - 12 oil changes I would have done in a year on dino, down to 4 - 5 changes. Over twenty years, we're talking almost 100 changes saved. Crunch the #s any way you like, but when you're driving almost 40k miles per year, extending OCIs reasonably becomes a very attractive and sensible option. Moreover, I really don't care what percentage of BITOG members are going with 10k changes, the data right here in our UOA section demonstrates that for a healthy engine with good oil, that's very do-able.quote:
Originally posted by Cutehumor:
I'll give you another viewpoint. 20 extra oil changes sounds alot more doesn't it? ya, one extra oil change a year for 20 years. one extra a year. not unreasonable to meyour theory on syn is based on 10k OCI, I'll believe it when I see it. I've been a member now for almost two years. I've seen maybe 5% of the uoa's on this board over 10k OCI intervals. most are syn at 5k interval. serious overkill
I've actually come from the exact opposite side of the fence. When I ran into bobs (linked from another site), i knew nothing about oil, fluids, oil, or air filters. I figured, oh what the hey, this is on sale, I'll use this.
After about a month of reading, I was absolutely mortified at my treatment of my first car (currently in pieces being "upgraded"). I didn't even keep a schedule on the oil changes...kinda of a "hmm when was the last time I changed the oil? Guess I should probably change it". I even...used the orange death for about a year.
Poor car. Luckily I started reading bobs right after I got my first new car (the first one is a 1974 Grand Am Pontiac with a 6.6 Liter V8), the 2003 Mazda 6s. As you've probably known, now I've gotten an entire community obsessed with UOA's and oils (via the almost weekly, "Hey its time for another boring Mazda 6 uoa!!"
Now having recently gotten into racing (autox/track) I'm looking for the maximum protection feasible under harsh conditions and will be going a step further and getting some dyson analysis goodness to further my obsession with my cars internals.
Why do all this? Why spend money on expensive synthetics? Whats the point of a UOA on a new car?
One thing many have left out of this discussion is power and mileage. These are two aspects of a car which most of us want more of. What do synthetic fluids give you? More mileage, and more power. Is it alot more power? No. Is it alot more mileage? No. Is there SOME gain in mileage and power moving to a synthetic? YES.
On my first Mazda 6s, I kept excellent mileage records for the life of the vehicle (which is still happily being driven around, but not by me). My mileage spiked about 2 mpg higher average when I went from 5w-20 motorcraft to 0w-20 mobil1. Some owners have reported as high as a 3 mpg increase (average). Now this isn't just the "mileage after the oil change check" this is the "overall average" mileage.
Conversly, before I traded in the car, I had to remove my futamov oil change valve (another bobs thanks) and reverted back to standard semi-synthetic 5w-20 (forget which one exactly). My mileage instantly dropped. (Changed the oil about four weeks before I traded it in).
I'm not very good at math, but I'm sure the syn owners will have some fun calculating how much money you save with an extra 2 mpg when gas costs almost 2 bucks a gallon in DC/MD/VA. That adds up REALLY fast. And since most dealers are charging 40-50 USD for a standard change, even with a K&N oil filter, I'm still saving money over having the dealer to my oil changes. (And I'm using syn).
Of course you could argue I could do the same thing with dino...so that point is kinda of mute.
Back to the power issue. All the mazda 6's which have been dyno'd, WITH synthetic, have had higher baseline numbers, then those running standard oils or semi-synthetics. Of course nobody was changing their oil while on the dyno and doing a direct comparison between two blends...I'm just saying "overall" the syn dyno's have higher baseline scores then non syn. One fellow on the mazda3forums actually did a comparison vs the motorcraft semi-syn vs royal purple 5w-20 and he gained about 3-4 whp (don't remember exact number). In an age of aftermarket where a simple cold air intake (4 cylinder NA) adds about 6 whp for 250 bucks...its easy to see where the small power benefit from syn can be cost effective.
I haven't gotten into the additives yet, but will be soon, most likely with auto-rx on the old pont, and possibly LC and FP on the Mazda.
Now off to the UOA's. I see UOA's as blood tests for an engine. Like a blood test, not everything is covered (unless you pay extra) and many times the information recieved is utterly useless "All your scores and counts look fine Mr. Hess, thanks for paying me 250 an Hour to run your blood through a large machine," but when the information contains a hint of a problem...the cost is suddenly VERY worth it. "Your cholesterol seems a bit...high"
How do you know if there is a problem? Well you could always just wait until one of your arms falls off, or your engine seizes, sprays white smoke out the rear like spy hunter, or snaps your crank in half. Or you could just do a UOA everyonce in awhile to make sure everything is hunky dory. Of course you don't have to...you don't have to get an annual checkup either...but if you spot something early enough, it sure makes up for any of the "additional" cost
In a day and age where a kidney stone blasting costs 7,000 USD, I sure would have liked to have known to just cut back on some foods and drink more money, then pass that $#@!$ out. (Or car case, intake manifold gasket anyone?)
Now UOA's on a new car...when its a new car, its your baby. A baby that costs 20-30k usually (unless you get one of those cool cars that actually DOESN't cost 20k after all the taxes n crap are thrown on it), you want to make sure she's gonna last you for the long haul. But if you've had any type of online forum experience with your make or model, you'll always find some sort of pecuilar instance with engine failures on your particular model. Someone, somewhere, somehow, has had an engine failure, before the warranty is up. Usually these are manufacturer defects, which happen from time to time. Doing a UOA early on makes sure your car isn't one of these "defects" and allows you to happily invest thousands of dollars into modifications to make the car...er...safer..yes safer. To make the car "safer".
Plus a sudden onset of UOA's into a community that has never seen, heard, nor known of UOA's before is amazing. Suddenly everyone wants to do one. Hows my engine doing? I wonder how this oil does..etc etc. There are even slight competitions in the Mazda 6 community to see who has the lowest wearing 6i and 6s engine. LOL
Anyway thats my little blurb. Enjoy.
After about a month of reading, I was absolutely mortified at my treatment of my first car (currently in pieces being "upgraded"). I didn't even keep a schedule on the oil changes...kinda of a "hmm when was the last time I changed the oil? Guess I should probably change it". I even...used the orange death for about a year.
Poor car. Luckily I started reading bobs right after I got my first new car (the first one is a 1974 Grand Am Pontiac with a 6.6 Liter V8), the 2003 Mazda 6s. As you've probably known, now I've gotten an entire community obsessed with UOA's and oils (via the almost weekly, "Hey its time for another boring Mazda 6 uoa!!"
Now having recently gotten into racing (autox/track) I'm looking for the maximum protection feasible under harsh conditions and will be going a step further and getting some dyson analysis goodness to further my obsession with my cars internals.
Why do all this? Why spend money on expensive synthetics? Whats the point of a UOA on a new car?
One thing many have left out of this discussion is power and mileage. These are two aspects of a car which most of us want more of. What do synthetic fluids give you? More mileage, and more power. Is it alot more power? No. Is it alot more mileage? No. Is there SOME gain in mileage and power moving to a synthetic? YES.
On my first Mazda 6s, I kept excellent mileage records for the life of the vehicle (which is still happily being driven around, but not by me). My mileage spiked about 2 mpg higher average when I went from 5w-20 motorcraft to 0w-20 mobil1. Some owners have reported as high as a 3 mpg increase (average). Now this isn't just the "mileage after the oil change check" this is the "overall average" mileage.
Conversly, before I traded in the car, I had to remove my futamov oil change valve (another bobs thanks) and reverted back to standard semi-synthetic 5w-20 (forget which one exactly). My mileage instantly dropped. (Changed the oil about four weeks before I traded it in).
I'm not very good at math, but I'm sure the syn owners will have some fun calculating how much money you save with an extra 2 mpg when gas costs almost 2 bucks a gallon in DC/MD/VA. That adds up REALLY fast. And since most dealers are charging 40-50 USD for a standard change, even with a K&N oil filter, I'm still saving money over having the dealer to my oil changes. (And I'm using syn).
Of course you could argue I could do the same thing with dino...so that point is kinda of mute.
Back to the power issue. All the mazda 6's which have been dyno'd, WITH synthetic, have had higher baseline numbers, then those running standard oils or semi-synthetics. Of course nobody was changing their oil while on the dyno and doing a direct comparison between two blends...I'm just saying "overall" the syn dyno's have higher baseline scores then non syn. One fellow on the mazda3forums actually did a comparison vs the motorcraft semi-syn vs royal purple 5w-20 and he gained about 3-4 whp (don't remember exact number). In an age of aftermarket where a simple cold air intake (4 cylinder NA) adds about 6 whp for 250 bucks...its easy to see where the small power benefit from syn can be cost effective.
I haven't gotten into the additives yet, but will be soon, most likely with auto-rx on the old pont, and possibly LC and FP on the Mazda.
Now off to the UOA's. I see UOA's as blood tests for an engine. Like a blood test, not everything is covered (unless you pay extra) and many times the information recieved is utterly useless "All your scores and counts look fine Mr. Hess, thanks for paying me 250 an Hour to run your blood through a large machine," but when the information contains a hint of a problem...the cost is suddenly VERY worth it. "Your cholesterol seems a bit...high"
How do you know if there is a problem? Well you could always just wait until one of your arms falls off, or your engine seizes, sprays white smoke out the rear like spy hunter, or snaps your crank in half. Or you could just do a UOA everyonce in awhile to make sure everything is hunky dory. Of course you don't have to...you don't have to get an annual checkup either...but if you spot something early enough, it sure makes up for any of the "additional" cost
In a day and age where a kidney stone blasting costs 7,000 USD, I sure would have liked to have known to just cut back on some foods and drink more money, then pass that $#@!$ out. (Or car case, intake manifold gasket anyone?)
Now UOA's on a new car...when its a new car, its your baby. A baby that costs 20-30k usually (unless you get one of those cool cars that actually DOESN't cost 20k after all the taxes n crap are thrown on it), you want to make sure she's gonna last you for the long haul. But if you've had any type of online forum experience with your make or model, you'll always find some sort of pecuilar instance with engine failures on your particular model. Someone, somewhere, somehow, has had an engine failure, before the warranty is up. Usually these are manufacturer defects, which happen from time to time. Doing a UOA early on makes sure your car isn't one of these "defects" and allows you to happily invest thousands of dollars into modifications to make the car...er...safer..yes safer. To make the car "safer".
Plus a sudden onset of UOA's into a community that has never seen, heard, nor known of UOA's before is amazing. Suddenly everyone wants to do one. Hows my engine doing? I wonder how this oil does..etc etc. There are even slight competitions in the Mazda 6 community to see who has the lowest wearing 6i and 6s engine. LOL
Anyway thats my little blurb. Enjoy.
- Status
Similar threads
