I use a Gold plug and a Filter Mag. Does it work? Absolutely, I always have some greyish ferrous particles. It comes down to personal preference. "Different strokes for different folks."
Respectfully,
Pajero
Respectfully,
Pajero
how many of you are using magnets to monitor wear?
- Thread starter friendly_jacek
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Sounds like moly. Is molybdenum magnetic? I found one source that says it is paramagnetic. That's a new term for me so I had to look it up. I'll stick with moly as the answer.
no, it's iron.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Interesting,but wouldn't the filter have caught that stuff?
like it was explained above, those particles are too small to be caught in a filter. once i looked at them under microscope and they were in micrometer range.
Originally Posted By: CR94
I don't use magnetic plugs or filter magnets. I usually can't find anything shiny in used filters, can't pick up anything stirring the drained oil with a magnet, and see nothing in the drained oil, which is surprisingly clean-looking from the Prius. Where are all those ferrous particles hiding, or do they simply not exist?
One of my cars is prius too. It has little of that fuzz considering about 10,000 miles I do in per OCI in that car. However, if you suspend that small amount in over 4qts of oil, it will not be visible. Also, putting a magnet in it for a few minutes (with no oil moving) doesn’t compare to magnet sitting in moving oil for full OCI. The ferrous particles are there, this is what’s detected by UOA.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I thought magnetic drain plugs sounded like an experiment with no downside until somebody raised the specter of a ferrous particle becoming magnetized and sticking to a critical engine component instead of being filtered out or just circulating harmlessly.
Sounds extremely unlikely, but I think it's also quite unlikely that there's much of a possible benefit.
Here is why this is not an issue here. Of course ferrous particles wil get magnetized in the magnetic field near magnet. But, as soon as that happens they will get stuck on the magnet. The only way for those to get released is by saturating magnets with thick layer/mashroom cap that is loosely adherent and pulled away by turbulent oil flow. I never see that magnet saturation in my cars. The only situation I saw like that was diff fluid in subaru that had magnets overwhelmed and the fluids were all silver from the particles.
Originally Posted By: Pajero
It comes down to personal preference. "Different strokes for different folks."
Exactly. While I started doing it for potential “extra protection,” there is little benefit judging by the amount of it. This is why the industry is dropping those magnetic drains, I guess. This now more a curiosity thing for me.
Sounds like moly. Is molybdenum magnetic? I found one source that says it is paramagnetic. That's a new term for me so I had to look it up. I'll stick with moly as the answer.
no, it's iron.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Interesting,but wouldn't the filter have caught that stuff?
like it was explained above, those particles are too small to be caught in a filter. once i looked at them under microscope and they were in micrometer range.
Originally Posted By: CR94
I don't use magnetic plugs or filter magnets. I usually can't find anything shiny in used filters, can't pick up anything stirring the drained oil with a magnet, and see nothing in the drained oil, which is surprisingly clean-looking from the Prius. Where are all those ferrous particles hiding, or do they simply not exist?
One of my cars is prius too. It has little of that fuzz considering about 10,000 miles I do in per OCI in that car. However, if you suspend that small amount in over 4qts of oil, it will not be visible. Also, putting a magnet in it for a few minutes (with no oil moving) doesn’t compare to magnet sitting in moving oil for full OCI. The ferrous particles are there, this is what’s detected by UOA.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I thought magnetic drain plugs sounded like an experiment with no downside until somebody raised the specter of a ferrous particle becoming magnetized and sticking to a critical engine component instead of being filtered out or just circulating harmlessly.
Sounds extremely unlikely, but I think it's also quite unlikely that there's much of a possible benefit.
Here is why this is not an issue here. Of course ferrous particles wil get magnetized in the magnetic field near magnet. But, as soon as that happens they will get stuck on the magnet. The only way for those to get released is by saturating magnets with thick layer/mashroom cap that is loosely adherent and pulled away by turbulent oil flow. I never see that magnet saturation in my cars. The only situation I saw like that was diff fluid in subaru that had magnets overwhelmed and the fluids were all silver from the particles.
Originally Posted By: Pajero
It comes down to personal preference. "Different strokes for different folks."
Exactly. While I started doing it for potential “extra protection,” there is little benefit judging by the amount of it. This is why the industry is dropping those magnetic drains, I guess. This now more a curiosity thing for me.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
... In your lack of adequate detection methods.
And why wouldn't a magnet in the drained oil be an adequate detection method (leaving aside that it's admittedly not an adequate method of timely removal), if such particles are suspended in the oil? They don't show up in piles at the bottom of the drain pan.
... In your lack of adequate detection methods.
And why wouldn't a magnet in the drained oil be an adequate detection method (leaving aside that it's admittedly not an adequate method of timely removal), if such particles are suspended in the oil? They don't show up in piles at the bottom of the drain pan.
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: Ducked
... In your lack of adequate detection methods.
And why wouldn't a magnet in the drained oil be an adequate detection method (leaving aside that it's admittedly not an adequate method of timely removal), if such particles are suspended in the oil?
Already explained by someone above. You need long residence times and multiple passes to accumulate much unless you've got big chunks there which are either indicative of failure or assembly debris
Wear particles that have passed the filter will be small, so the magnetic force on them is small relative to the frictional resistance of the oil. They are trapped very inefficiently by a magnetic drain plug, and hardly at all by a quick swish with a magnet.
Originally Posted By: CR94
They don't show up in piles at the bottom of the drain pan.
They do in mine, which is stationary for weeks at a time. Also on the upper surface of the tilted dip stick.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
... In your lack of adequate detection methods.
And why wouldn't a magnet in the drained oil be an adequate detection method (leaving aside that it's admittedly not an adequate method of timely removal), if such particles are suspended in the oil?
Already explained by someone above. You need long residence times and multiple passes to accumulate much unless you've got big chunks there which are either indicative of failure or assembly debris
Wear particles that have passed the filter will be small, so the magnetic force on them is small relative to the frictional resistance of the oil. They are trapped very inefficiently by a magnetic drain plug, and hardly at all by a quick swish with a magnet.
Originally Posted By: CR94
They don't show up in piles at the bottom of the drain pan.
They do in mine, which is stationary for weeks at a time. Also on the upper surface of the tilted dip stick.
The BMC front wheel drive engines had magnetic drain plugs...we knew we should tell the customer when we found a gear tooth on the drain plug magnet...but usually didn't.
+1 to monitor wear. Gives you a quick visual insight to what maybe going on in the internals, i.e. mmmm time to sell it/or keep it.
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Anyway, just my feelings.. I never really much thought about it, maybe your right, yet all I know, it wont matter much in the life of the engine, any properly designed engine should last 200,000 + miles without a lubrication caused failure if using the recommended oil and OCI (or better)
Why so conservative I feel if I don't get 300,000 plus out of my Toyota I made a bad purchase?
I feel 300,000+ is realistic but maybe not in the minds of some people in here so I thought i would be conservative.
)
My work place gives me a Ford Transit work truck, its a 2012 now has 184,000 miles on it.
Due to my companies horrible managing of the fleet, it goes anywhere from 7000 miles to 15000 miles on oil changes using the cheapest conventional fast oil change lube. Still has original spark plugs, brakes, and, get this, I had the air filter replaced for the first time, around 182,000 miles, on the last oil change. It was the OEM!
Anyway, yes, todays vehicles are made so well that if a lubrication failure occurs it is the design of the engine, not the oil. Im amazed that this truck still doesnt burn oil, yes, it will use up to 1/2 a quart every 7 to 8000 miles or so.
Honestly, if you covered up the odometer and had a stranger drive the truck, they would never guess the mileage is so high, easy miles for sure, mostly all interstate all the time at 78 MPH> and still rides smooth and straight with no pulling or shaking at those speeds.
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Anyway, just my feelings.. I never really much thought about it, maybe your right, yet all I know, it wont matter much in the life of the engine, any properly designed engine should last 200,000 + miles without a lubrication caused failure if using the recommended oil and OCI (or better)
Why so conservative I feel if I don't get 300,000 plus out of my Toyota I made a bad purchase?
I feel 300,000+ is realistic but maybe not in the minds of some people in here so I thought i would be conservative.
)My work place gives me a Ford Transit work truck, its a 2012 now has 184,000 miles on it.
Due to my companies horrible managing of the fleet, it goes anywhere from 7000 miles to 15000 miles on oil changes using the cheapest conventional fast oil change lube. Still has original spark plugs, brakes, and, get this, I had the air filter replaced for the first time, around 182,000 miles, on the last oil change. It was the OEM!
Anyway, yes, todays vehicles are made so well that if a lubrication failure occurs it is the design of the engine, not the oil. Im amazed that this truck still doesnt burn oil, yes, it will use up to 1/2 a quart every 7 to 8000 miles or so.
Honestly, if you covered up the odometer and had a stranger drive the truck, they would never guess the mileage is so high, easy miles for sure, mostly all interstate all the time at 78 MPH> and still rides smooth and straight with no pulling or shaking at those speeds.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I guess I don't see what a magnet does besides feed curiosity. What exactly is a lot of metal particles on an engine? One may see a nice OCI to OCI comparison if they take photos, but that's about it. You would also need to compare this to OTHER engines under similar conditions with similar miles, daily usage, maintenance history etc. A UOA is the only real way to monitor oil and engine wear. They also have the universal averages on file too.
Also, without the magnet, the particles just go into the filter.
1. An oil filter can only realistically filter particles down to 10 microns and in most cases the particles have to be much larger then that for the filter to catch it. To understand this, look at it this way, if a filter caught everything the oil would not flow through it!
2. A Magnetic plug (lets call it a secondary filter) will catch any magnetic particle of ANY size, no matter how small, an oil filter can not and will not..
Is this necessary?
No, of course not, its not anymore necessary then a Fram Ultra oil filter, KN filter, Bosch or any oil filter that cost more then $3. at your local Walmart. However some people take pride in taking care of things and want what they feel best and it is for those people I would suggest for a one time cost of $20 or less they can add an extra filter that lasts for the life of the vehicle that will filter down to the smallest microns.
Its really that simple and no more thought required.
There are manufacturers that of course use magnetic plugs in vehicles, the manufacturers would not be spending a penny more of anything if they didnt think it was wise to do so. Those same manufacturers do not spend an extra penny on oil filters.
You can google and bing all day long to find out who, here are some, Mercury Marine and most marine engine outdrives,
automobile manufacturers in transmissions and gear cases.
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
Harley Davidson uses Magnetic oil drain plugs in its heavy weight touring class bikes and in the transmission and primary (and I think most other models too)
Almost all small aircraft piston engines use magnetic drain plugs (not my field, maybe more then small aircraft)
Polaris industries uses them in their ATVs and Snowmobiles and quiet possibly their bikes but can not confirm.
Its easy to confirm the above but most of all their are many more examples, thing is if the part title doesnt have the word magnet in it, it doesnt show up in search results.
I guess I don't see what a magnet does besides feed curiosity. What exactly is a lot of metal particles on an engine? One may see a nice OCI to OCI comparison if they take photos, but that's about it. You would also need to compare this to OTHER engines under similar conditions with similar miles, daily usage, maintenance history etc. A UOA is the only real way to monitor oil and engine wear. They also have the universal averages on file too.
Also, without the magnet, the particles just go into the filter.
1. An oil filter can only realistically filter particles down to 10 microns and in most cases the particles have to be much larger then that for the filter to catch it. To understand this, look at it this way, if a filter caught everything the oil would not flow through it!
2. A Magnetic plug (lets call it a secondary filter) will catch any magnetic particle of ANY size, no matter how small, an oil filter can not and will not..
Is this necessary?
No, of course not, its not anymore necessary then a Fram Ultra oil filter, KN filter, Bosch or any oil filter that cost more then $3. at your local Walmart. However some people take pride in taking care of things and want what they feel best and it is for those people I would suggest for a one time cost of $20 or less they can add an extra filter that lasts for the life of the vehicle that will filter down to the smallest microns.
Its really that simple and no more thought required.
There are manufacturers that of course use magnetic plugs in vehicles, the manufacturers would not be spending a penny more of anything if they didnt think it was wise to do so. Those same manufacturers do not spend an extra penny on oil filters.
You can google and bing all day long to find out who, here are some, Mercury Marine and most marine engine outdrives,
automobile manufacturers in transmissions and gear cases.
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
Harley Davidson uses Magnetic oil drain plugs in its heavy weight touring class bikes and in the transmission and primary (and I think most other models too)
Almost all small aircraft piston engines use magnetic drain plugs (not my field, maybe more then small aircraft)
Polaris industries uses them in their ATVs and Snowmobiles and quiet possibly their bikes but can not confirm.
Its easy to confirm the above but most of all their are many more examples, thing is if the part title doesnt have the word magnet in it, it doesnt show up in search results.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
...
Looks like the only current Subaru that plug will fit is the WRX STI.
My Forester XT came with a much smaller non-magnetic plug.
I'm not completely sure, but I think that plug shown was not original equipment despite being Subaru branded...maybe somebody with a Subie of the appropriate age could contradict me here.
...
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
...
Looks like the only current Subaru that plug will fit is the WRX STI.
My Forester XT came with a much smaller non-magnetic plug.
I'm not completely sure, but I think that plug shown was not original equipment despite being Subaru branded...maybe somebody with a Subie of the appropriate age could contradict me here.
This is BITOG. Everything magnifies the OCD.
Originally Posted By: GeoW
Just thinking out loud but does seeing something on the magnet intensify ones OCD concerning something floating around in ones engine when that is perfectly normal but if it is more than normal it won't be long before it becomes obvious?
geo
I'm a curious person and like to know things. Same with other BITOGers and this is why VOA/UOA is popular here. If knowledge makes your OCD worse, well, there are effective treatments available. And like Garak said, BITOG is not good for OCD.
Just thinking out loud but does seeing something on the magnet intensify ones OCD concerning something floating around in ones engine when that is perfectly normal but if it is more than normal it won't be long before it becomes obvious?
geo
I'm a curious person and like to know things. Same with other BITOGers and this is why VOA/UOA is popular here. If knowledge makes your OCD worse, well, there are effective treatments available. And like Garak said, BITOG is not good for OCD.
All the time.
They are a great filtration "helper" and diagnostic tool to make sure everything is working as it should be.
Passenger autos are very lightly loaded devices, and dont usually show much accumulation after break in, but I always find some on a plug and some against the wall of a filter if I bother to cut them.
Filtermag suggest their product is good for at least one full iso code drop which if true is a significant measurable and meaningful amount.
As you up the ante with vehicles subjected to serious loads, like pickup trucks that tow heavy loads, motorhomes, and marine engines their inherent value become more meaningful and their worth in an en engines ecosystem becomes greater.
Only on Bitog vehicle exist that dont wear out, but I sure see them all over the place out in the real world.
An auto attaining high mileage isn't meaningful unless you know how tight it is at that mileage, and how its performed over time.
In Cali we get to see wear effect firsthand because every two years we have to smog check our vehicles and you can see firsthand the effect of 1-2-300K on the tailpipe emission. The printout doesn't lie.
Ive seen lots of sub 10 year old autos labelled as "gross polluters" and declined a ticket every time I go, crying women trying to negotiate with the guy as to what to do next.
Were these cars neglected, maybe. One guy I talked to said he changed oil with the cheapest oil and filter possible every 15K- in his case it didnt work out for him. I can't help but believe a bit more loving and attention would have pushed out the time where these auto engine are destined to meet their makers.
Necessary- of course not. Helpful absolutely. For the 20 bucks they cost - it isn't even a decision.
I lose more money in change between the seats every 6 months.
Worked for Grandpa on the farm, worked for dad, works for me.
UD
They are a great filtration "helper" and diagnostic tool to make sure everything is working as it should be.
Passenger autos are very lightly loaded devices, and dont usually show much accumulation after break in, but I always find some on a plug and some against the wall of a filter if I bother to cut them.
Filtermag suggest their product is good for at least one full iso code drop which if true is a significant measurable and meaningful amount.
As you up the ante with vehicles subjected to serious loads, like pickup trucks that tow heavy loads, motorhomes, and marine engines their inherent value become more meaningful and their worth in an en engines ecosystem becomes greater.
Only on Bitog vehicle exist that dont wear out, but I sure see them all over the place out in the real world.
An auto attaining high mileage isn't meaningful unless you know how tight it is at that mileage, and how its performed over time.
In Cali we get to see wear effect firsthand because every two years we have to smog check our vehicles and you can see firsthand the effect of 1-2-300K on the tailpipe emission. The printout doesn't lie.
Ive seen lots of sub 10 year old autos labelled as "gross polluters" and declined a ticket every time I go, crying women trying to negotiate with the guy as to what to do next.
Were these cars neglected, maybe. One guy I talked to said he changed oil with the cheapest oil and filter possible every 15K- in his case it didnt work out for him. I can't help but believe a bit more loving and attention would have pushed out the time where these auto engine are destined to meet their makers.
Necessary- of course not. Helpful absolutely. For the 20 bucks they cost - it isn't even a decision.
I lose more money in change between the seats every 6 months.
Worked for Grandpa on the farm, worked for dad, works for me.
UD
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
...
Looks like the only current Subaru that plug will fit is the WRX STI.
My Forester XT came with a much smaller non-magnetic plug.
I'm not completely sure, but I think that plug shown was not original equipment despite being Subaru branded...maybe somebody with a Subie of the appropriate age could contradict me here.
My 2010 subaru didn't have a magnetic plug. I just ordered one on amazon for $9 and will put it in at next interval. I like the idea of them.
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
...
Looks like the only current Subaru that plug will fit is the WRX STI.
My Forester XT came with a much smaller non-magnetic plug.
I'm not completely sure, but I think that plug shown was not original equipment despite being Subaru branded...maybe somebody with a Subie of the appropriate age could contradict me here.
My 2010 subaru didn't have a magnetic plug. I just ordered one on amazon for $9 and will put it in at next interval. I like the idea of them.
Originally Posted By: mcwilly
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
...
Looks like the only current Subaru that plug will fit is the WRX STI.
My Forester XT came with a much smaller non-magnetic plug.
I'm not completely sure, but I think that plug shown was not original equipment despite being Subaru branded...maybe somebody with a Subie of the appropriate age could contradict me here.
My 2010 subaru didn't have a magnetic plug. I just ordered one on amazon for $9 and will put it in at next interval. I like the idea of them.
My 2011 Outback 3.6R came with a non-magnetic plug. Installed a Gold Plug in the engine and transmission (which also did not have a magnetic drain plug). My old 99 Impreza Outback Sport 2.2 also did not have a magnetic drain plug (a GP went into that one as well).
The first few OCI's of the 2011 Outback 3.6R (which had been dealer maintained until I bought it at 90k), the goldplug had quite a bit of ferrous material on it. However, after the first 3 changes, it's essentially clean. Fram Ultra XG3593A filters were used since I bought it.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...
Suburu uses a OEM Magnetic oil drain plug in all its vechicles or most of them for the last 11 years.
Is this why 98% of its vehicles are still on the road after 10 years? No, but it maybe the design mentality to do all they can do that achieves these results.
You can click here
...
Looks like the only current Subaru that plug will fit is the WRX STI.
My Forester XT came with a much smaller non-magnetic plug.
I'm not completely sure, but I think that plug shown was not original equipment despite being Subaru branded...maybe somebody with a Subie of the appropriate age could contradict me here.
My 2010 subaru didn't have a magnetic plug. I just ordered one on amazon for $9 and will put it in at next interval. I like the idea of them.
My 2011 Outback 3.6R came with a non-magnetic plug. Installed a Gold Plug in the engine and transmission (which also did not have a magnetic drain plug). My old 99 Impreza Outback Sport 2.2 also did not have a magnetic drain plug (a GP went into that one as well).
The first few OCI's of the 2011 Outback 3.6R (which had been dealer maintained until I bought it at 90k), the goldplug had quite a bit of ferrous material on it. However, after the first 3 changes, it's essentially clean. Fram Ultra XG3593A filters were used since I bought it.
I just un-installed my Gold plug yesterday during my oil change
You can read my verified purchase review of the AP-03 on Amazon with pictures.
A portion of the gold tip has chipped off while in service (which hopefully my oil filter caught)
I wish they hadn't done the [censored] gold plating on the magnet.
You can read my verified purchase review of the AP-03 on Amazon with pictures.
A portion of the gold tip has chipped off while in service (which hopefully my oil filter caught)
I wish they hadn't done the [censored] gold plating on the magnet.
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
I just un-installed my Gold plug yesterday during my oil change
You can read my verified purchase review of the AP-03 on Amazon with pictures.
A portion of the gold tip has chipped off while in service (which hopefully my oil filter caught)
I wish they hadn't done the [censored] gold plating on the magnet.
Ugh! What a horror story!
I would suspect that the magnet needed plating for protection, or maybe the plating is there to protect an engine from a crumbling magnet, but how nasty that the plating itself was not durable.
I just un-installed my Gold plug yesterday during my oil change
You can read my verified purchase review of the AP-03 on Amazon with pictures.
A portion of the gold tip has chipped off while in service (which hopefully my oil filter caught)
I wish they hadn't done the [censored] gold plating on the magnet.
Ugh! What a horror story!
I would suspect that the magnet needed plating for protection, or maybe the plating is there to protect an engine from a crumbling magnet, but how nasty that the plating itself was not durable.
- Status
Similar threads
