How angry pilots got the Navy to stop dismissing UFO sightings

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Not opinion, politicos, theologians or anything else. It was and is science that changes wrong-headed beliefs and mistakes and corrects them and forces them to be discarded. That's what science does. That's its reason for being.


Very true.
 
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

Unfortunately with UFO's, the majority of it is all testimonials from various individuals. The Bob Lazar story is interesting.
 
I disagree with that Sagan quote...

If there's a burden of proof required for any regular scientific activity, the "paranormal" should not be required to do anything above and beyond that level of proof to be accepted.
 
Originally Posted by buster
The Bob Lazar story is interesting.

Bob Lazar is nuts or disingenuous, or both. He is confused about some of the most basic precepts of physics, if you go in depth with the things he claims and the things he wrote. Some things, he was absolutely wrong on what a grade 10 science student would know.

Originally Posted by buster
Stanton Friedman

And I can't figure out if he's serious or just out there deliberately stirring the pot.
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I don't think anyone knows for sure except him. All I'm hoping is he has a book ready to be published after his death to let us in on his motives.
 
How did Bob Lazar know when the "UFO's" were going to me flying above Area 51? This was recorded video. Unless that too was top secret military and Lazar was used as a test on the public.

Friedman, posted above, took issue with Lazar and his background. He didn't deny that what Lazar saw wasn't true, but there were holes in Lazar's background.

A recent (2018) film about Bob is out and interestingly enough many things he said back then were proven to be true. He's certainly been consistent in his story.


Someone erased his records.
 
Originally Posted by spasm3
Stanton said Lazar's background did not check out at all.


Maybe, maybe not...

George Knapp seems like an honest guy to me.
 
Originally Posted by buster
How did Bob Lazar know when the "UFO's" were going to me flying above Area 51? This was recorded video. Unless that too was top secret military and Lazar was used as a test on the public.

Friedman, posted above, took issue with Lazar and his background. He didn't deny that what Lazar saw wasn't true, but there were holes in Lazar's background.

Friedman was correct in his concerns with Lazar. Lazar was wrong about the periodic table. He doesn't understand the mathematics of flux or fields. He knows nothing about the history of the supposition and discovery of various subatomic particles and claims the opposite of the historical reality. It's not even the fancy claims he makes, since those can easily befuddle people without some scientific background; it's like technobabble in Star Trek. It sounds just plausible enough. He makes some very elementary mistakes, though.

Friedman and others have pointed out major holes in what he has said over the years and specifically where he is dead wrong about the science. I'm not sure how consistent Lazar is in his stories. He may or not be, but that's really not much of a concern. He's done enough appearances over the years I'm sure I could find some whoppers if I looked hard enough. Consistency doesn't mean correct. Nothing of what he has said about science checks out in the least. In fact, I'm not even convinced you could hand him a grade 11 physics final and have him pass it.
 
Stanton is right there are holes in his background, but some things do check out, Bob is not being totally truthful about everything that's certain.

Some things he claimed to see have been found to be true and later verified - one piece of security equipment he described was found to be real - everyone lambasted him on it.

Bobs most telling piece of information to my mind is the construction of a successful working triangle of element "115". (or whatever he called it)

The method in which he described it was put together was fascinating - the layers were machined out of a cone of stacked disks and interwoven together is something we cant pull off.


UD
 
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Originally Posted by Garak

...Friedman and others have pointed out major holes in what he has said over the years and specifically where he is dead wrong about the science. I'm not sure how consistent Lazar is in his stories. He may or not be, but that's really not much of a concern. He's done enough appearances over the years I'm sure I could find some whoppers if I looked hard enough. Consistency doesn't mean correct. Nothing of what he has said about science checks out in the least. In fact, I'm not even convinced you could hand him a grade 11 physics final and have him pass it.


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Originally Posted by UncleDave
...Bobs most telling piece of information to my mind is the construction of a successful working triangle of element "115". (or whatever he called it)


If Lazar was claiming on or before 1993 (25 years ago) that he knew about Element 115, there is a big problem here. Element 115 wasn't discovered (via transmutational synthesis) until 2003.
 
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Agreed.

Bob didn't seem to know exactly what it was only that it was further on the chart than we had reached at the time. It seems to me he was surmising it was 115.

According to Bob he/ we learned very little about anything he claimed we were trying to reverse engineer.

IF he was picked for a project like this it seems clear it wasn't because of any actual hardcore scientific background but more his innate ability to tinker which he has demonstrated aptitude for.


UD
 
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Agree.

He was and did. He's on record saying it. Read the Reddit post on it. That's what makes it interesting. But other before him, prior to the 80's, speculated about 115.
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Agreed.

Bob didn't seem to know exactly what it was only that it was further on the chart than we had reached at the time. It seems to me he was surmising it was 115.

According to Bob he/ we learned very little about anything he claimed we were trying to reverse engineer.

IF he was picked for a project like this it seems clear it wasn't because of any actual hardcore scientific background but more his innate ability to tinker which he has demonstrated aptitude for.


UD



I think that is probably correct.
 
Friedman actually believes we have and continue to be visited by an ET entity. All he said was there are holes in Lazar's story. He never said what Lazar is saying isn't true. Friedman actually believes Roswell was a real ET crash, something I don't believe. Friedman has a very impressive, legit background too.
 
....anyway there have been enough Navy Pilots to change procedures on this topic now which was the OP.
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Bobs most telling piece of information to my mind is the construction of a successful working triangle of element "115". (or whatever he called it)

The entire element 115 debacle is the one of the most serious nails in his coffin. What he stated about it doesn't match reality. Beyond that, talking about future elements by number on the periodic table has been a staple of science fiction writings for decades. That doesn't mean the authors worked on alien technology.

Lazar has never come up with a reason as to why his "degrees" were erased from history. It never happened to Friedman, who worked on real classified projects. It never happened to John Brandenburg, either. As for Friedman, does he really believe that there was an alien spacecraft crash in Roswell, or is he spreading disinformation intentionally?

I still maintain Lazar couldn't pass a grade 11 physics final. Two masters degrees in engineering, my rump.

Mola: Lazar comically claimed that element 115 could only be found in nature and was impossible to synthesize in the lab. What a freaking fathead. The man couldn't do a Bohr diagram of hydrogen at gunpoint.
 
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Agreed.

Bob didn't seem to know exactly what it was only that it was further on the chart than we had reached at the time. It seems to me he was surmising it was 115.



That doesn't make any sense. How could he surmise anything if it wasn't verified yet or real? It is one thing to speculate and another thing to verify something or some element in a complex lab environment.


Originally Posted by UncleDave
...
IF he was picked for a project like this it seems clear it wasn't because of any actual hardcore scientific background but more his innate ability to tinker which he has demonstrated aptitude for.


UD


The Los Alamos National Labs (LANL) do not work that way. They don't hire "tinkereers, " they hire physicists with advanced degrees and with post doctoral work in specific areas.

Here is another problem: Element 115 has only a half-life of 650 milliseconds. How could an element with such a short half-life continuously eject golf balls and repel other masses?
 
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