Honda Factory Fill UOAs

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C

Cicero

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Care to guess what oil mirrors Honda FF? These are some FF UOA's from various Hondas/Acuras. Most from BITOG, All Blackstone Labs. The very first is my new Si UOA I got today. I will post it seperately in the UOA forum. This could have gone on another thread, but it's turned into a cam "debate". Forgive the lack of "alignment". I tried. If a mod could "fix" this somehow then it would be appreciated.

Mod Si Si TSX CivDx Acrd Si TL TL TL TL

Oil ? 5w20 5w30 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20
Eng 2.0L 2.0L 2.4L 1.7L 3.0L 2.0L 3.2L 3.2L 3.2L 3.2L
Miles 2180 1931 2902 10K 466 5040 2950 3400 2900 3300
Date 11/06 04/06 08/06 02/06 11/05 08/05 03/05 03/05 03/05 11/04

Al 6 13 6 7 3 8 6 6 4 6
Cr 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 1
Fe 10 13 26 22 16 16 35 33 36 25
Cu 9 12 21 12 24 16 157 187 127 148
Pb 2 3 5 13 4 5 5 4 7
Sn 0 1 0 5 3 0 1 1 0
Md 337 292 334 347 328 329 281 277 308 276
Ni 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
Mn 0 1 0 2 38 3 3 3 0 3
Ag 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Ti 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
K 0 0 4 0 3 4 5 0 3 4
B 195 148 201 124 201 24 31 24 35 36
Sc 57 58 63 51 86 93 73 77 76 78
Na 8 9 10 9 8 29 12 7 10 9
Ca 1707 1579 1751 1750 1591 1648 1508 1523 1659 1804
Mg 14 10 8 11 10 6 13 0 13 15
P 587 565 664 641 620 708 717 685 759 805
Zn 707 669 737 759 710 856 739 722 834 918
Ba 6 4 7 7 1 5 4 4

V/210 54.0 50.2 50.5 52.2 51.0 49.7 50.0 50.7 50.1
Insol .3 .4 .2 .4 .2 .4 .5 .4 .6 .5
Flash 410 380 365 365 380 400 380 360

I'll start this off and then let everyone have their say.

(1)Is the factory fill for these cars 0W20 or 5W20? Does Honda want a "thin" oil to break in these high performance engines? If one dumps the Factory Fill "early" would it be wise to put back a XW20 and would the Mo be more important then the B?

The first two are UOA's of 8th Gen. Civic Si's and the next an Acura TSX. The Si spec is 5w30s or 10w30s according to the owners manual. I don't know about the TSX but the report header for this UOA said 5W30. Blackstone said the Factory Fills were either 0w20 or 5W20s for the Si*s. The TSX vis. was 50.5.

(2) The Honda's, except for the oldest tested, all have "high" boron levels. The Acuras all are in the 30'ish range. ALL show the high Mo numbers always "debated" as assembly lube and so on. What oils with this high level of boron could Honda be using? Mobil 1? Is the Mo just the assembly lube? What oil might have both high B and high Mo?

(3)Is it possible that Honda might want the FF left in because these oils are THINNER then the oil that is specified as the oil for all later changes? Specifically, since my Si UOA said the oil was a XW20, should I use a XW20 to continue the "break-in miles" now that I have flushed out the early wear? I have Havoline 5W30 in now.
 
Code:


Mod Si Si TSX CivDx Acrd Si TL TL TL TL

Oil ? 5w20 5w30 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20

Eng 2.0L 2.0L 2.4L 1.7L 3.0L 2.0L 3.2L 3.2L 3.2L 3.2L

Miles 2180 1931 2902 10K 466 5040 2950 3400 2900 3300

Date 11/06 04/06 08/06 02/06 11/05 08/05 03/05 03/05 03/05 11/04



Al 6 13 6 7 3 8 6 6 4 6

Cr 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 1

Fe 10 13 26 22 16 16 35 33 36 25

Cu 9 12 21 12 24 16 157 187 127 148

Pb 2 3 5 13 4 5 5 4 7

Sn 0 1 0 5 3 0 1 1 0

Md 337 292 334 347 328 329 281 277 308 276

Ni 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0

Mn 0 1 0 2 38 3 3 3 0 3

Ag 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Ti 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

K 0 0 4 0 3 4 5 0 3 4

B 195 148 201 124 201 24 31 24 35 36

Sc 57 58 63 51 86 93 73 77 76 78

Na 8 9 10 9 8 29 12 7 10 9

Ca 1707 1579 1751 1750 1591 1648 1508 1523 1659 1804

Mg 14 10 8 11 10 6 13 0 13 15

P 587 565 664 641 620 708 717 685 759 805

Zn 707 669 737 759 710 856 739 722 834 918

Ba 6 4 7 7 1 5 4 4



V/210 54.0 50.2 50.5 52.2 51.0 49.7 50.0 50.7 50.1

Insol 0.3 0.4 0.2 0.4 0.2 0.4 0.5 0.4 0.6 0.5

Flash 410 380 365 365 380 400 380 360


 
that's a little easier on the eyes
wink.gif
 
5W-20 VOA's from this thread: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post473336

Code:


M-1 Honda Castrol Pennz. M-C Valv. Honda

0W20 5W20 5W20 5W20 5W20 5W20 Fact.

GF3/SL GF3/SL GF4/SM GF3/SL GF4/SM GF4/SM Fill



Iron 1 1 1 0 0 1 8

Moly 56 102 42 182 30 0 298

Pota 1 1 2 1 0 0 4

Boro 161 63 20 53 1 11 49

Sili 3 3 7 4 3 2 57

Sodi 6 243 148 1 0 1 6

Calc 2864 1467 1453 1686 1477 1782 1939

Magn 13 6 6 6 5 6 7

Phos 831 590 546 607 487 561 835

Zinc 920 675 619 711 695 738 886




The factory fill listed in the table was taken from an '05 Acura 2.4L with 350 miles
 
Last edited:
The viscosities ranged from 7.2-8.5 cSt, so it looks like Honda/Acura believes that Xw20s are appropriate for break-in duties.

My conjecture is that the Boron is from the oil used, and may point to a particular preferred addpack. The Moly, if one believes Honda, is from the assembly lube.
 
427Z06,
That's what it looks like, doesn't it. So now I wonder if I should use a 0-5W20 of some kind for some additional XW20 "break-in" work. Mobil 1 0W20 might be good. Maybe Motorcraft syn/blend? Or Havoline 5W20? (I was at 60% MM at 2,180miles.)
 
Let me make this clear. The Si and TSX are both factory filled with 5w30, and the TL is filled with 5w20.

Your 5w30 may thin to 8-9 cst after 1-2k miles, more if there was fuel dilution. 5w20 oils may stay between 7-8cst, as they are often have a more stable viscosity.

So I still believe that the Si came with 5w30 originally.
 
Critic....
Well, I guess that has to be considered. It well could be as you say. Now I will have to figure out a way to get a virgin sample form a Si or TSX.
 
Quote:

5W-20 VOA's from this thread: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post473336
The factory fill listed in the table was taken from an '05 Acura 2.4L with 350 miles

Click to expand...

Went to check that Acura to see if the VISCOSITY was listed since it only had 350 miles on it. (No time to shear down I figure). The thread you refer to shows the Honda FF sample was from a '05 ACCORD 2.4L and that would be a 5W20 engine.

*****************************
Critic,
After a good night's sleep, I'm not comfortable with the explination that these Si*s and the TSX sheared down their 5W30s. (Maybe some TSX UOAs might have some clues).
 
Quote:

accord vice acura...

pardon my slip-up Cicero - it was late and I'm geting old
wink.gif


Click to expand...

I know what you mean! I could use the edit feature all the time myself. The VOAs are nice to have posted on this thread for others to find easily.

Thanks again for the chart fix...but the "?" at the top oil line should be over my Si and everything moved one over. Not that that makes much difference. The important question to me still is....JUST WHAT IS HONDA FF? Some TSX UOA's suggest oil shearing on the W30s used and most are top tier synthetics using long OCIs. I'm not sure I'm getting any help there at all. Got to find a VOA or fresh sample of a Honda 5W30 vehicle.
 
updated table info (oil grade info tabbed over one column):

Code:


Mod Si Si TSX CivDx Acrd Si TL TL TL TL

Oil ? 5w20 5w30 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20 5w20

Eng 2.0L 2.0L 2.4L 1.7L 3.0L 2.0L 3.2L 3.2L 3.2L 3.2L

Miles 2180 1931 2902 10K 466 5040 2950 3400 2900 3300

Date 11/06 04/06 08/06 02/06 11/05 08/05 03/05 03/05 03/05 11/04



Al 6 13 6 7 3 8 6 6 4 6

Cr 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 1

Fe 10 13 26 22 16 16 35 33 36 25

Cu 9 12 21 12 24 16 157 187 127 148

Pb 2 3 5 13 4 5 5 4 7

Sn 0 1 0 5 3 0 1 1 0

Md 337 292 334 347 328 329 281 277 308 276

Ni 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0

Mn 0 1 0 2 38 3 3 3 0 3

Ag 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Ti 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

K 0 0 4 0 3 4 5 0 3 4

B 195 148 201 124 201 24 31 24 35 36

Sc 57 58 63 51 86 93 73 77 76 78

Na 8 9 10 9 8 29 12 7 10 9

Ca 1707 1579 1751 1750 1591 1648 1508 1523 1659 1804

Mg 14 10 8 11 10 6 13 0 13 15

P 587 565 664 641 620 708 717 685 759 805

Zn 707 669 737 759 710 856 739 722 834 918

Ba 6 4 7 7 1 5 4 4



V/210 54.0 50.2 50.5 52.2 51.0 49.7 50.0 50.7 50.1

Insol 0.3 0.4 0.2 0.4 0.2 0.4 0.5 0.4 0.6 0.5

Flash 410 380 365 365 380 400 380 360
 
I only have the owner's manual to back me up. Unfortunately, I don't have copies of the manuals for the TSX, Si, or TL, but Amsoil's reference guide will verify the recommended grades for those listed vehicles.
 
Quote:

...for the TSX, Si, or TL, but Amsoil's reference guide will verify the recommended grades for those listed vehicles.

Click to expand...


I agree, the TSX and Si use 5-10W/30 but the TL uses 5W/20, doesn't it? In your last link I don't think any Vis was really known at first..."BTW oil used in the Acura is 5W-20." If these engines are oil shredders then really shear resistant oil like GC might be a good choice.

It's not the oil used AFTER the first change that I'm intrigued about. Its the nature and make-up of the Holy Honda FF and all the vaporous myth surronding it. The hook is in me now and I want to know. I'm getting a Fit for my youngest son next Spring and this time I want to know what's up with this stuff.

The only two Si FF UOAs I have read BOTH state in the comments that the oil tested was either a 0W/20 or a 5W/20. I'm trying to prove OR disprove that a 0-5W/20 is being used in the Si and maybe even the TSX as break-in viscosity. So far the evidence from Blackstone suggests a 0-5W/20 of some kind.
 
The easiest way to tell would be to test multiple brands of 5w-30 mineral oil after 2k miles, and compare their viscosities to your factory fill.

Why FIT? You can pick-up a Civic LX for $1000 more and have better fuel economy. It's amazing that the Civic actually obtains better fuel economy than the FIT.
 
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