Owen Lucas
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Honda Dual Pump Fluid II vs Acura's All-Wheel Drive Fluid (DPSF)
- Thread starter The Critic
- Start date
Sure.
Thanks Sir…I’ve got a CRV and a RDX. I wanted a definitive answer!!
Thanks for doing this. I’m sure a few of us would be more than happy to contribute towards the cost of these. Let us know where to send the $.
Looks like ATF frankly.
At one point, the Acura SH-AWD rear differentials called for ATF-Z1.
Thanks Critic. Actually. I did this before reading the post. I’ve been curious for some time!!
That's kind of what it is....
Honda products aren't picky on their fluids. As said they used to spec atf in their diffs and the design hasn't really changed much thru the years.
I've seen people run the vtm4 fluid instead of the spec'd dual pump with no issues (not recommending but as long as there's something in there they seem happy)
I've seen people run the vtm4 fluid instead of the spec'd dual pump with no issues (not recommending but as long as there's something in there they seem happy)
I tried VTM4 and noticed the difference from Dual Pump II fluid I could feel what felt like locking and unlocking of something at cruise speeds.
I changed it out right away.
Interesting result just based on my experience (not doubting), the diff is just kind of along for the ride on Hondas, there's no rear end engagement unless the front wheels/one wheel is spinning faster.
After a little digging on here it seems many dealers are actually using the fluids as interchangable (not saying that's correct to do on the dealer level)
One of my new lube techs forgot to fill a crv diff on a service once (doh!), It went like two weeks and around 600 miles and the only symptom was the AWD light finally came on for low pump pressure, flushed and filled and still going fine a couple years later.
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I don't believe so.
In a Gen2 Ridgeline the rears are always overdriven by 2.7% which is regulated by the clutch packs slipping constantly.
This requires slightly different fluid to work properly.
I’ve been around crvs and mdxs since about 1999. I’ve read the literature, spoken with the dealer guys, and even participated in receiving and passing it on here on bitog through the years. I can’t argue with the lab results, but dang. this wrecks me.
Nolan65 a god among men.
Now, there could be unobtanium in there that Blackstone doesn't test for. But I would guess Honda's just using the whole dual-bottling effort to exhort more money from us Acura folks - a common tactic among OEMs with premium brands.
I understand Honda was shipping Acura to Honda and vice versa for service. Now, that could be an indication that they're interchangeable. Or Honda knows they're "good enough" and they have service records of the swap and can warranty diffs that expire should the need arise.
Honda holds all the cards here, and without a TSB or similar from them, we'll never truly know.
A smoking gun communication from Honda is about the only thing that would do it for me (me as in highly paranoid guy who is being unnecessarily conservative).
Now, there could be unobtanium in there that Blackstone doesn't test for. But I would guess Honda's just using the whole dual-bottling effort to exhort more money from us Acura folks - a common tactic among OEMs with premium brands.
I understand Honda was shipping Acura to Honda and vice versa for service. Now, that could be an indication that they're interchangeable. Or Honda knows they're "good enough" and they have service records of the swap and can warranty diffs that expire should the need arise.
Honda holds all the cards here, and without a TSB or similar from them, we'll never truly know.
A smoking gun communication from Honda is about the only thing that would do it for me (me as in highly paranoid guy who is being unnecessarily conservative).
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I found a Safety Data Sheet for Honda DPF II. https://www.collegehillshonda.com/sds/08200-9007sds.pdf
It's made by JX Nippon Oil & Energy USA Inc. That company also sells this: https://www.eneos.us/product/eneos-import-dps-fluid/ which they market as being sufficient for both DPF II and DPSF. I quote:
I could not find an SDS for Acura DPSF, and since companies legally have to post SDSs, I'm going to guess a regulator who calls Honda asking about DPSF gets a letter from Honda Legal certifying that they're the same, and a copy of the DPF II SDS.
I was looking for the CAS number for both so I could compare the two and see if they had the same CAS number, but the CAS number only says, "trade secret".
Wait, now that I compare the SDS of the Honda DPF II and the SDS of the Eneos, I see that the density, flashpoint and some other factors are slightly different between them. So at least those two are somehow different. Maybe DPF II and DPSF are different, and the Eneos splits the baby so that they can market a single option to indy shops. But it's telling that the company that makes the fluid for Honda (Honda and Acura) also sell their own, and says it's good for both. We're probably boiling the ocean here.
Of course if your diff blows up you can't exactly send anyone a bill. Again I revert to the idea - I should just put the Acura spec. in my Acura and not eat a cheeseburger that week.
It's made by JX Nippon Oil & Energy USA Inc. That company also sells this: https://www.eneos.us/product/eneos-import-dps-fluid/ which they market as being sufficient for both DPF II and DPSF. I quote:
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that all 3 are the sam tang.
I could not find an SDS for Acura DPSF, and since companies legally have to post SDSs, I'm going to guess a regulator who calls Honda asking about DPSF gets a letter from Honda Legal certifying that they're the same, and a copy of the DPF II SDS.
I was looking for the CAS number for both so I could compare the two and see if they had the same CAS number, but the CAS number only says, "trade secret".
Wait, now that I compare the SDS of the Honda DPF II and the SDS of the Eneos, I see that the density, flashpoint and some other factors are slightly different between them. So at least those two are somehow different. Maybe DPF II and DPSF are different, and the Eneos splits the baby so that they can market a single option to indy shops. But it's telling that the company that makes the fluid for Honda (Honda and Acura) also sell their own, and says it's good for both. We're probably boiling the ocean here.
Of course if your diff blows up you can't exactly send anyone a bill. Again I revert to the idea - I should just put the Acura spec. in my Acura and not eat a cheeseburger that week.
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Honda had two different AWD systems - RT4WD which uses DPSF and is an in-house design, and VTM-4 which uses VTM-4 fluid(it originally called for ATF-Z1) and is made by Borg-Warner for Honda. The VTM-4 system is electromechanical with wet clutches not unlike an automatic transmission or a Haldex rear end on a VW 4Motion/Audi quattro, Volvo or a Buick/Opel. RT4WD is all hydromechanical. VTM-4 engages when the controller based on ABS inputs senses the car will lose traction. RT4WD engages when there’s a difference in speed between the front and rear wheels - the oil pumps in the diff are in a state of equilibrium otherwise.
From what I know, Acura’s SH-AWD is either RT4WD or VTM-4 with torque vectoring. VTM-4 fluid has friction modifiers for the wet clutches.
Thats why I useu OEM fluid for the rear diff...CVT and coolant...
It's whats Honda calls iVTM-4.
The VTM-4 system used electromagnets to force balls up ramps to apply the left and right clutches.
The fluid functioned as a lubricant for the moving parts and coolant for the clutches.
The iVTM-4 system uses an electrically-powered hydraulic pump, solenoids, valves, and pistons to apply the left and right clutches. iVTM-4 has a much more aggressive overdrive ratio (2.7% vs. 0.8%) that results in more clutch slip, iVTM-4 is designed to constantly slip.
Because Dual Pump Fluid II also functions as a hydraulic fluid and has to withstand more and constant clutch slip, I suspect it is formulated quite differently than older VTM-4 fluid.
It was noticeable when I subbed them for a short time.
Ivtm-4 is capable of transferring far more power, and does so much more quickly, and without nearly as much generated heat as earlier gen vtm-4. It is a fantastic drivetrain right up there with the exotic euro haldex and others top line AWD systems.
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Just to add more confusion, I used to use ATF in my '99 CRV's Real-Time AWD diff without a problem. Our '08 4WD was due for a diff fluid change, evidenced by a shudder during tight turns on dry pavement. I used MaxLife and all was good for about 10k kms, now it's shuddering again and the shifts from the A/T are intermittently not as precise as they used to be. It's time to swap out the MaxLife for some DPF-II.
global.honda
Honda Global | Real Time AWD - Picture Book
Driving on slippery surfaces, such as snowy roads, is safer and more secure if the engine’s power is conveyed to the road by all four tires, as even if the front tires slip, the rear tires can push the car forward.
global.honda
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My dealer uses BG fluid instead of Honda dual pump fluid in my Ridgeline.
