High Performance vs Ultra High Performance Tires

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Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I would add that I'm of the opinion that tread pattern plays a larger role than tread compound - but it is hardly a point worth arguing over as whatever the tire is made of and whatever tread pattern is on there is unchangeable and sorting out what is causing the improvement in snow traction is a job for the design engineers.

Until thirty years ago, what distinguished snow tires from other tires definitely was the tread pattern. The "M&S" industry standard and certification mark -- adopted in the 1950s and still in effect -- is defined entirely in terms of geometry: land to void ratio, depth of tread grooves, angle of lugs to the direction of rotation, etc. Incidentally, the rubber compounds for snow tires were generally formulated to stay supple at lower temperatures than the tread compounds of other tires.

The open tread, deep groove, design resulted in tires that were noisy and generally hard-riding, and the tread compounds that were optimized for low temperatures got quite soft and wore rapidly in the summer heat, sometimes even throwing off chunks of tread in hot weather. So people who needed snow tires in the winter usually took them off as soon as they could in the late winter or early spring, and did not put them back on again until around Thanksgiving.

The introduction of the "all-season" tire -- IIRC, the first widely sold model was the Pirelli P4 -- was based upon a reformulation of the tread compound, mainly with the addition of a high quantity of silica, so that, unlike the tires that preceded them, snow could stick to the tread. The mechanism by which this gave snow traction was that the snow that stuck to the tread on the first rotation of the tire, on the second and subsequent rotations of the tire compacted with the snow on the ground in the same manner that snow in your hands does when compacted in a snowball, and snow-to-snow adhesion gave snow traction. What was different about "all-season" tires was that, because they did not depend upon the tread pattern for traction, they could be made with tread patterns that are very similar to regular tires, which ran more quietly and had a more supple ride than snow tires.

But the tire engineers have only two ways to give a tire snow traction: mechanical (deep-lug tread pattern) or chemical (hydrophilic tread compounds). While they can use some of both, and twiddle with the balance between mechanical and chemical, as in most aspects of tire design, there is a trade-off. The more the design veers to the mechanical, the noisier and harsher riding is the tire; and the more the design veers toward the chemical, the more water will stay with the tread on wet roads, impairing braking under those conditions.
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I would add that I'm of the opinion that tread pattern plays a larger role than tread compound - but it is hardly a point worth arguing over as whatever the tire is made of and whatever tread pattern is on there is unchangeable and sorting out what is causing the improvement in snow traction is a job for the design engineers.

Until thirty years ago, what distinguished snow tires from other tires definitely was the tread pattern. The "M&S" industry standard and certification mark -- adopted in the 1950s and still in effect -- is defined entirely in terms of geometry: land to void ratio, depth of tread grooves, angle of lugs to the direction of rotation, etc. Incidentally, the rubber compounds for snow tires were generally formulated to stay supple at lower temperatures than the tread compounds of other tires.

The open tread, deep groove, design resulted in tires that were noisy and generally hard-riding, and the tread compounds that were optimized for low temperatures got quite soft and wore rapidly in the summer heat, sometimes even throwing off chunks of tread in hot weather. So people who needed snow tires in the winter usually took them off as soon as they could in the late winter or early spring, and did not put them back on again until around Thanksgiving.

The introduction of the "all-season" tire -- IIRC, the first widely sold model was the Pirelli P4 -- was based upon a reformulation of the tread compound, mainly with the addition of a high quantity of silica, so that, unlike the tires that preceded them, snow could stick to the tread. The mechanism by which this gave snow traction was that the snow that stuck to the tread on the first rotation of the tire, on the second and subsequent rotations of the tire compacted with the snow on the ground in the same manner that snow in your hands does when compacted in a snowball, and snow-to-snow adhesion gave snow traction. What was different about "all-season" tires was that, because they did not depend upon the tread pattern for traction, they could be made with tread patterns that are very similar to regular tires, which ran more quietly and had a more supple ride than snow tires.

But the tire engineers have only two ways to give a tire snow traction: mechanical (deep-lug tread pattern) or chemical (hydrophilic tread compounds). While they can use some of both, and twiddle with the balance between mechanical and chemical, as in most aspects of tire design, there is a trade-off. The more the design veers to the mechanical, the noisier and harsher riding is the tire; and the more the design veers toward the chemical, the more water will stay with the tread on wet roads, impairing braking under those conditions.

It's 2013 now.

Back in the late 70s, computer aided design was in its infancy. The F-117 was made with simple angles because the computing power to design a smoother shape to disperse radar wasn't available. The newer B-2 showed what advances in computing power could do for a design that was both aerodynamic and stealthy. Similar advances have occurred in tire design technology.

If you take a state of the art performance all-season today, it will likely be quieter and have better wet traction and hydroplaning resistance than a similar summer tire 25 years ago and possibly better than ones just from 10 years ago. There are far better tools to design and make tires and advances in rubber manufacturing.

It gets to a point where it's good enough for those who don't want to deal with rock hard tires on cold days. Likely 95% or more of the cars on the road are on all-seasons. For the most part summer tires are chosen for better dry traction with performance cars. I can't even get a summer tire for my wife's Civic and very few owners of popular family vehicles are going to find summer tires in those sizes. Is it a compromise? Likely yes, but one that's not as critical now than it might have been 25 years ago because the technology has advanced.

I was tempted to get a set of Continental ExtremeContact DW to replace my current set. However, the Michelin Pilot A/S 3 just came out and tests seem to indicate that it's superior in both dry and wet conditions.

http://wot.motortrend.com/michelin-pilot-sport-as-3-tire-test-307753.htm

And this quote states that silica is intentionally added (in large amounts) to Michelin's racing rain tires:

Quote:
If you're thinking this is the wet version of the Pilot Super Sport, you're not far wrong. To increase wet traction, Michelin cooked up an "extreme silica" compound, giving it the highest level of silica ever used in a Michelin all-season tire. You'll be happy to know the compound was derived from those found in the rain tires used at the Le Mans 24 Hours.

To maintain the rubber's flexibility in cold weather, PSA/S3 uses Michelin's Helio Compound with sunflower oil that also retains its grip at higher temperatures.

Additionally, the circumferential grooves were widened for better water evacuation and small vertical teeth were placed within the grooves to increase snow traction.

What Michelin calls 3-D Variable Thickness Sipe Technology (VTS) is razor-thin sipes in the large outer tread blocks that evacuate water and snow. But they lock together when the tire is loaded during hard cornering to increase rigidity and lateral grip.


Sometimes we have to live with what the market provides. What the market provides now are all-seasons that do a little of everything well enough. They're relatively inexpensive, quiet enough, and perform quite well. Tires safety is better today than it's ever been, and that's with all-seasons dominating the marketplace.
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch


The introduction of the "all-season" tire -- IIRC, the first widely sold model was the Pirelli P4 --


The first all-season tire was the Goodyear Tiempo
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
It's 2013 now.

Yes, but the calendar has not altered the physical properties of water.

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Similar advances have occurred in tire design technology.

If you take a state of the art performance all-season today, it will likely be quieter and have better wet traction and hydroplaning resistance than a similar summer tire 25 years ago and possibly better than ones just from 10 years ago. There are far better tools to design and make tires and advances in rubber manufacturing.

But water-to-water interfaces still do not provide good braking traction. A tire that sheds water -- as most rubber compounds do -- can interact with the pavement under wet conditions. A tire that retains water on the tread -- as all all-season tires must do in order to have snow traction -- will have a water-to-water contact patch -- unless the tire locks up so that the water at the point of contact gets scrubbed off. Modern vehicles -- as you note, it is 2013 now -- almost universally employ ABS to prevent wheel/tire lock-up. The NHTSA's Traction test for the UTQG does not acknowledge the existence of ABS, and the test forces wheel lockup, and the coefficient of friction (traction) gets measured only of the tire in locked-up condition; that is the only reason why any all-season tire ever can be rated as A in Traction; without the lock-up condition, they would rate much lower.

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
It gets to a point where it's good enough for those who don't want to deal with rock hard tires on cold days.

There is an almost linear correlation between the hardness of a tire's tread compound and the same tire's UTQG Treadwear rating. Typically, all-season tires have a much higher Treadwear rating than non-all-season tires; that means that the all-season tires have much harder tread compounds at NHTSA-mandated testing temperatures than non-all-season tires do.

The total range of operating temperatures among tires does not differ much, but the center point between the lowest acceptable temperature and the highest acceptable temperature does differ according to the tire's expected service. As a result winter tires can and do get quite soft and gummy at summer temperatures or high speed (which is why even some higher performance winter tires have only Q or T speed ratings); similarly, so-called "Extreme Performance" tires, which are essentially street-legal racing tires, have their median temperature curve moved upward so that they will remain integral at high speeds in hot conditions, which is why those tires may take some time to warm up in moderate temperatures, and get hard at near-freezing temperatures. You seem to have generalized the temperature curve of the "Extreme Performance" specialized subcategory to all non-all-season tires; that is a fundamental conceptual error.

Because the owners of cars equipped with all-season tires may be expected to drive all day long at speeds of 80 mph in Texas or Arizona or Western Montana on hot summer days, the designers of those tires do not adjust the center of the temperature curve downward -- or, if at all, not much -- from the curve for general-purpose non-all-season tires. For that reason, and because (as noted above) all-season tires are also generally designed for a very high Treadwear rating, at near-freezing and even below-freezing temperatures, the tread of most non-all-season tires will be softer and more supple than the tread of most all-season tires will. IOW, you have it just backward as to hardness at low temperatures: the rock-hard tires are the all-seasons.

As others have noted, Nokian has done quite a bit of testing and investigation into this matter, and about a year ago, Nokian posted a video on the web showing relative braking distances of regular tires, all-season tires, and winter tires on clear pavement at very low ambient temperatures (below freezing, IIRC), in which the all-season tires came in a distant third. (The winter tires were the clear winner: no surprise there.) I was going to link to the video, but I cannot find it now; if you can find the link, I ask that you post it.

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I was tempted to get a set of Continental ExtremeContact DW to replace my current set.

You dodged a bullet. Our tire "rotation" on a front-wheel drive car is to buy tires in pairs, which we mount on the rear; when the front tires wear out, we move the tires that have been on the rear to the front, and mount a new pair of tires on the rear. Eighteen months ago, the pair of new tires we mounted were Conti ExtremeContact DW tires. A few months later, when the pair had less than 2,000 miles on them, one of the tires suffered a catastrophic failure (ripped inner sidewall, extending from the bead to the tread); the same tires had been kept within one pound of recommended pressure their entire service life, and had been checked within a day of the catastrophic failure; we were going about 20-25 mph at the time of the failure. Because the tires were still under Conti's warranty, Continental gave me a full refund of the purchase price, including shipping (I had purchased from Tire Rack), for which I give Continental its due credit. Because tires at opposite ends of an axle should be identical, and the remaining tire of the original two was essentially brand new, I replaced the failed tire with another Continental ExtremeContact DW. Five thousand miles later, a second of the tires failed in exactly the same manner. Because by then the tires were out of warranty, I have not bothered to determine whether the second tire that failed was part of the original pair or was the replacement tire. But I have learned a lesson from a 67 percent (so far) failure rate. I will purchase another Continental ExtremeContact DW sometime after the place that BITOG's software prevents me from spelling out -- rhymes with "bell" -- freezes over. I replaced the second failed tire and the remaining intact Continntal tire with a pair of Nokian zLine tires.
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
There is an almost linear correlation between the hardness of a tire's tread compound and the same tire's UTQG Treadwear rating. Typically, all-season tires have a much higher Treadwear rating than non-all-season tires; that means that the all-season tires have much harder tread compounds at NHTSA-mandated testing temperatures than non-all-season tires do.

On what planet?

I remember sitting in the waiting room of a tire shop looking at the display models. One of them was a Continental max-performance summer tire with a treadwear rating of maybe 140. I tried handling it, and the rubber was extremely hard - almost as hard as the surface of a golf ball. This is my experience with a lot of low-wear summer tires. All-seasons on the other hand tend to be softer. I know it sounds a bit counterintuitive, but that's my experience.

You talk about silica being there for snow traction, but all the literature suggests that it improves wet traction and can also improve snow traction. You're the only source I've heard about this "hydrophobic" property of rubber. Maybe you know something that Michelin or Bridgestone don't know since they use copious amounts of silica in their racing rain tires as well as their passenger car winter tires. The main issues I understand about summer tires in the cold is that they're too hard - especially before they've been warmed up by driving.

Quote:
http://www.rubberchemtechnol.org/doi/abs/10.5254/1.3538845?journalCode=rcat

Abstract

Silica is widely used in passenger tire treads to improve the balance between wet traction and rolling resistance, compared to the balance achieved when the filler is strictly carbon black. Improvement in wet traction with silica is attributed to the difference in energy loss encountered at high frequencies. The energy loss difference is deduced from the difference in shift factors, determined by time temperature superposition in viscoelastic testing of silica compounds compared to carbon black compounds. Further investigation indicated that some mineral fillers other than silica showed similar behavior. Thus, some mineral fillers could improve tire wet traction without adverse effects on other tire performance traits.


Quote:
http://www.tirereview.com/article/59410/sand_man_we_see_it_everywhere_but_what_does_silica_do.aspx

Those customers who are shopping for dry handling at higher speeds will be happier with tread compounds using higher levels of carbon black. Those seeking greater snow, wet traction and lower rolling resistance will want silica as a filler. Of course, those in the middle will probably be satisfied with a blended compound that’s part silica, part carbon black.

A trip around the world reveals that 70% of tread compounds produced in Asia and Europe are silica-based, with just 30% of tires using a carbon black filler. In the U.S., simply transpose those numbers. Further, the 30% of tires using a silica compound in the U.S. find a home on ultra-high-performance cars equipped with H or higher speed rated tires. The owners of these vehicles like the wet handling silica delivers, and will pay to get it.

Another note before moving on. It is precisely the rolling resistance of a car tire that is playing a huge role in today’s economy, since it cuts fuel consumption. In addition, lower fuel consumption in a silica-based filler emits fewer CO2 emissions – and that is a benefit to the environment, say the scientists with whom we talked.



Quote:
http://www.rubber-silanes.com/product/rubber-silanes/en/effects/wet-grip/pages/default.aspx


Wet grip

The trend towards faster and saver cars is going on. However, the single contact area to the street is given by the tires. Therefore, tires play a major role in the balance of driving fun and safety demands especially on wet road surfaces. Though the scientific basics of the wet braking phenomenons are still under investigation, one thing is clear: The introduction of the silica silane system in the early 90’s led to an immediate improvement of wet breaking distances by approx. 7 %. The filler silica bears a polar surface. In contrast to the non-polar Carbon Black, Silica containing rubber compounds can easilier penetrate a water film on the road surface. Contacts to the road surface can be guaranteed even under wet conditions. Together with the unique viscoelastic properties of silica-filled rubber compounds the stringent safety requirements of modern passenger car tire treads can be fulfilled. And even here rubber silanes can be seen as key ingredients. The reinforcement of the rubber compound requires the use of silane. Only then the balance between wet grip, wear and rolling resistance is guaranteed.


Quite a few tires are incorporating vegetable oils to help with all sorts of properties, including wet and winter traction. The Michelin Pilot A/S 3 I mentioned claims to use sunflower oil as an ingredient to improve cold weather performance without sacrificing warm weather performance. Nokian has been using similar compounds for several years.

Quote:
http://www.tirereview.com/Article/60055/secrets_of_winter_tires.aspx

Ordinarily used in the same sentence with cooking oils, canola has found a new niche at Nokian Tyre's winter tire plant in Finland. That's where the "low-sat-fat" oil is mixed into Nokian Hakkapeliitta winter tire tread compounds. "It increases the tear resistance of rubber and improves the tire's grip in winter and wet conditions," says Nokian.

Ordinarily used in the same sentence with cooking oils, canola has found a new niche at Nokian Tyre’s winter tire plant in Finland.

That’s where the “low-sat-fat” oil is mixed into Nokian Hakkapeliitta winter tire tread compounds. It increases the tear resistance of rubber and improves the tire's grip in winter and wet conditions, says Nokian.

The Finish tiremaker also says canola oil assists in reducing rolling resistance, which, subsequently, improves fuel savings without compromising the tire’s winter handling properties.
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
It's 2013 now.

Yes, but the calendar has not altered the physical properties of water.

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Similar advances have occurred in tire design technology.

If you take a state of the art performance all-season today, it will likely be quieter and have better wet traction and hydroplaning resistance than a similar summer tire 25 years ago and possibly better than ones just from 10 years ago. There are far better tools to design and make tires and advances in rubber manufacturing.

But water-to-water interfaces still do not provide good braking traction. A tire that sheds water -- as most rubber compounds do -- can interact with the pavement under wet conditions. A tire that retains water on the tread -- as all all-season tires must do in order to have snow traction -- will have a water-to-water contact patch -- unless the tire locks up so that the water at the point of contact gets scrubbed off. Modern vehicles -- as you note, it is 2013 now -- almost universally employ ABS to prevent wheel/tire lock-up. The NHTSA's Traction test for the UTQG does not acknowledge the existence of ABS, and the test forces wheel lockup, and the coefficient of friction (traction) gets measured only of the tire in locked-up condition; that is the only reason why any all-season tire ever can be rated as A in Traction; without the lock-up condition, they would rate much lower.

Just as a follow-up, read the literature on why silica is added to tires. It improves wet traction BECAUSE water adheres to it.

That many summer tires with high silica perform well in the wet is partially because of the high silica and partially because of other factors where the design/materials are superior for wet traction.

This is a pretty good explanation of all the factors that go into wet grip:

http://www.continental-tires.com/www/dow.../CSC_5_grip.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
GC4lunch has been mentioning . . . that all-seasons are designed for water to stick to the tread and that the ideal tire for wet would be rubber designed to shed water.

The first part of what you paraphrase is true; the second part is your own fantasy and quite false.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Just as a follow-up, read the literature on why silica is added to tires. It improves wet traction BECAUSE water adheres to it.

That many summer tires with high silica perform well in the wet is partially because of the high silica and partially because of other factors where the design/materials are superior for wet traction.

You have (deliberately?) taken a single word in one of my earlier posts entirely out of context. Yes, in one sentence of a long post I did write:

Originally Posted By: GC4Lunch
The introduction of the "all-season" tire -- IIRC, the first widely sold model was the Pirelli P4 -- was based upon a reformulation of the tread compound, mainly with the addition of a high quantity of silica, so that, unlike the tires that preceded them, snow could stick to the tread.

You seem to have interpreted that sentence as a screed against silica in general. It was not, nor was it intended to be. Nor did I intend to suggest, as you imply, that the only modification made to the tread compound of the Pirelli P4 was the addition of silica. I wrote "mainly" -- that probably was an overstatement -- but even discounting the overstatement aspect, "mainly" does not mean "exclusively," or any other exaggeration about silica, which is what you seem to want to transmogrify it into.

Please do me the courtesy of answering the following questions; please be honest in your answers.

1. Is hydroplaning/aquaplaning a bad thing -- something that you hope that your tires can avoid?

If you have answered that hydroplaning is good, you may skip the remainder of the questions.

2. If you answered to (1.) that hydroplaning is something that you hope to avoid, why? What about hydroplaning is bad?

3. How does running a tire with a film of water on the contact patch differ from what you regard as bad about hydroplaning?


Originally Posted By: y_p_w
You're the only source I've heard about this "hydrophobic" property of rubber.

When it rains really hard and your taxpayer-supported public servants are out in the streets performing public service, are they wearing any protection from the elements? The policemen and sewage workers and rescue personnel that I have seen usually are wearing yellow slickers. And what are "slickers"? Answer: rubber-coated cloth. Almost invariably, rubber-coated cloth. Slickers are made of rubber-coated cloth because rubber sheds water.

If you served in the Navy, what was government-issue gear to wear out on the deck in a storm? Rubber-coated cloth.

Rubber is flexible and sheds water. That is why it is the important part of rain slickers.
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Just as a follow-up, read the literature on why silica is added to tires. It improves wet traction BECAUSE water adheres to it.

That many summer tires with high silica perform well in the wet is partially because of the high silica and partially because of other factors where the design/materials are superior for wet traction.

You have (deliberately?) taken a single word in one of my earlier posts entirely out of context. Yes, in one sentence of a long post I did write:

Originally Posted By: GC4Lunch
The introduction of the "all-season" tire -- IIRC, the first widely sold model was the Pirelli P4 -- was based upon a reformulation of the tread compound, mainly with the addition of a high quantity of silica, so that, unlike the tires that preceded them, snow could stick to the tread.

You seem to have interpreted that sentence as a screed against silica in general. It was not, nor was it intended to be. Nor did I intend to suggest, as you imply, that the only modification made to the tread compound of the Pirelli P4 was the addition of silica. I wrote "mainly" -- that probably was an overstatement -- but even discounting the overstatement aspect, "mainly" does not mean "exclusively," or any other exaggeration about silica, which is what you seem to want to transmogrify it into.

Please do me the courtesy of answering the following questions; please be honest in your answers.

1. Is hydroplaning/aquaplaning a bad thing -- something that you hope that your tires can avoid?

If you have answered that hydroplaning is good, you may skip the remainder of the questions.

2. If you answered to (1.) that hydroplaning is something that you hope to avoid, why? What about hydroplaning is bad?

3. How does running a tire with a film of water on the contact patch differ from what you regard as bad about hydroplaning?


1. It is generally bad unless I'm specifically trying to hydroplane for effect.
2. Once the tire hydroplanes it is literally no longer in contact with the pavement surface. I know that feeling from sloshing through a large puddle.
3. A thin boundary film of water is not the same as hydroplaning. The various papers and documents I've read suggest that silica helps with wet traction for the very reason that it is polar/hydrophilic and that this boundary film of water helps improve wet traction by improving adhesion with the wet road surface. Water isn't a lubricant and has some adhesive properties. I specifically remember HS chemistry class where the teacher took a negatively charged plastic rod and could get the water coming out of a faucet to bend towards the rod. The same thing happened with a positively charged rod. Water molecules are polar and are attracted to each other as well as other polar substances.

Here's a patent (20030114571) granted by the USPTO for a process to distribute silica into tire compounds. The issue is that the silica tends to clump together, and better processes for dispersing the silica make for a better compound. However, the background goes into why silica is believed to aid with wet traction.

Quote:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20030114571

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

[0004] It has been a long time goal of the tire industry to improve tire wet traction without compromising rolling resistance. The recent use of amorphous precipitated silica as a reinforcing filler has resulted in tire treads having low rolling resistance, while at the same time providing high abrasion resistance. Moreover, tire treads containing silica tend to provide better braking performance than carbon black-containing compounds on wet road surfaces. It has been proposed that the increased wet traction and skid resistance of silica-filled tire tread compounds is due to the polar (hydrophilic) silanol groups on the surface of the silica particles that improve the affinity between the rubber surface and the wet road surface, thereby increasing the coefficient of adhesive friction.


Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
You're the only source I've heard about this "hydrophobic" property of rubber.

When it rains really hard and your taxpayer-supported public servants are out in the streets performing public service, are they wearing any protection from the elements? The policemen and sewage workers and rescue personnel that I have seen usually are wearing yellow slickers. And what are "slickers"? Answer: rubber-coated cloth. Almost invariably, rubber-coated cloth. Slickers are made of rubber-coated cloth because rubber sheds water.

If you served in the Navy, what was government-issue gear to wear out on the deck in a storm? Rubber-coated cloth.

Rubber is flexible and sheds water. That is why it is the important part of rain slickers.

How long ago? I still see some wearing those bulky rubber slickers, but increasingly it's high-tech waterproof breathable membrane fabrics like Gore-Tex or other expanded PFTE or expanded polyurethane linings. The California Highway Patrol winter parka is a traditional police jacket with fur-like linings, but with a Gore-Tex membrane. I know that they typically some form of water repellent is applied to help minimize the nylon soaking in, but it's still waterproof even when the water repellency is compromised. There's nothing worse feeling than being clammy when your sweat just pools back as liquid water because it doesn't escape as vapor.

Isn't technology wonderful?

Quote:
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=59098

The Navy Working Uniform (NWU) now has a matching foul weather trouser made of Gore-Tex for wear during inclement weather, as announced in NAVADMIN 081/11 March 11.

This uniform change is a result of fleet input requesting a waterproof foul weather trouser to match the look and performance of the NWU Type I parka.

The proposal was endorsed by U.S. Fleet Forces Command, recommended by the Navy Uniform Board and approved by the chief of naval operations.

The NWU foul weather trouser is classified as organizational clothing and is intended to be worn with the NWU parka during inclement weather or during the performance of duties requiring protective clothing, as directed by the commanding officer.

This is what a Navy Working Uniform Type I parka looks like:

6659101419_9c3befc937_z.jpg


I know you're thinking of these things in terms that most people can grasp, but technology is far more complicated than these simple metaphors you use.
 
And a piece on the way that Formula 1 rain tires work:

Quote:
Riders on the storm - wet-weather tyres explained
http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2008/9/8459.html

“I cannot remember a race weekend when every session was wet, but even if we did face that situation we would have enough wet-weather tyres for a Grand Prix to take place,” says Hirohide Hamashima, Bridgestone’s director of motorsport tyre development.

There is only half the amount of wet tyres available but this is due to how wet tyres work, and therefore not as many are required.

“A dry compound’s stickiness is similar to packing tape in the way the tyre sticks to the road,” explains Hamashima, “but the way a wet compound works is more like flour - when you add water it gets sticky. The way the wet tyre works means that it lasts longer in pure wet conditions than a dry tyre does in the dry. We also see less wear on a wet tyre. A dry tyre would also last a lot longer in wet conditions, but a dry tyre in the rain does not provide as much grip.”
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Just as a follow-up, read the literature on why silica is added to tires. It improves wet traction BECAUSE water adheres to it.

This is a pretty good explanation of all the factors that go into wet grip:

http://www.continental-tires.com/www/dow.../CSC_5_grip.pdf

Direct quotation from page 6 of the document (above) that you have cited for your novel proposition that water on the tread improves wet traction:

Originally Posted By: ContinentalTire
Lubrication (thin water film) prevents a close contact between rubber and the road surface
o Thin water films restrain adhesion effects and stronger stick/slip-movements.


Q.E.D.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
You're the only source I've heard about this "hydrophobic" property of rubber.

When it rains really hard and your taxpayer-supported public servants are out in the streets performing public service, are they wearing any protection from the elements? The policemen and sewage workers and rescue personnel that I have seen usually are wearing yellow slickers. And what are "slickers"? Answer: rubber-coated cloth. Almost invariably, rubber-coated cloth. Slickers are made of rubber-coated cloth because rubber sheds water.
If you served in the Navy, what was government-issue gear to wear out on the deck in a storm? Rubber-coated cloth.
Rubber is flexible and sheds water. That is why it is the important part of rain slickers.

How long ago? I still see some wearing those bulky rubber slickers, but increasingly it's high-tech waterproof breathable membrane fabrics like Gore-Tex or other expanded PFTE or expanded polyurethane linings.
I know you're thinking of these things in terms that most people can grasp, but technology is far more complicated than these simple metaphors you use.

Apparently. your point appears to be that:
because some organizations now use Gore-Tex in rain slickers ,
it follows logically that:
rubber no longer sheds water
because
technology seems complicated to you.

Go for it.
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Just as a follow-up, read the literature on why silica is added to tires. It improves wet traction BECAUSE water adheres to it.

This is a pretty good explanation of all the factors that go into wet grip:

http://www.continental-tires.com/www/dow.../CSC_5_grip.pdf

Direct quotation from page 6 of the document (above) that you have cited for your novel proposition that water on the tread improves wet traction:

Originally Posted By: ContinentalTire
Lubrication (thin water film) prevents a close contact between rubber and the road surface
o Thin water films restrain adhesion effects and stronger stick/slip-movements.


Q.E.D.

Nothing novel about it. They're not talking about adhesion of water to the tire rubber but enough liquid water to prevent rubber contact with the road surface. Here's another quote:

Quote:
For wet-performance a pattern with edges is necessary to cut the water-film. For dry-grip these soft patterns show a stronger deformation, which causes loss of contact-area.


That wet traction is improved by a tire where the tread holds onto some water and has been known for a long time. Here's an abstract of a technical article from 1956:

Quote:
http://rubberchemtechnol.org/doi/abs/10.5254/1.3542644?journalCode=rcat

After illustrating the interfacial magnitudes with the help of a vector diagram, we shall survey the laws of boundary surface adhesion. Here the great influence of the liquid involved in wet friction becomes clear and the particularly favorable interfacial tension property of water can be assessed. Since skidding can occur only at the interfaces : rubber-water, or water-road, the requirement is as follows : both the greatest possible wetting power between rubber and water, and also between water and road surface, that is, hydrophilic properties in the rubber and hydrophilic road surfaces, in order to reduce the danger of skidding. Good insurance against skidding requires hydrophilic rubber and a hydrophilic road surface, for a tire that has been developed to be nonskidding holds on a hydrophilic road surface and skids on a hydrophobic road surface. A hydrophobic tire, on the other hand, skids on any wet road. Although considerable advances have been made with respect to safety from skidding since rubber tires were first developed for motor vehicles, with increase of speeds this problem demands our attention to a greater and greater degree. Safety from skidding can result only from the combined efforts of road and car builders, tire makers, and the chemists and physicists of all three groups.


There's plenty of evidence that rain-specific racing tires are made with compounds that adhere to water by design.

Quote:
http://www.cycletreads.co.nz/products/527-metzeler_slicks_and_wets/3232-metzeler_wets.aspx

Metzeler Wets

NHS competition tyre designed for competing under rain

FEATURES:
  • Blocked tread pattern design, developed with a completely new specification and an updated compound ideal for usage on Supermotard
  • Latest generation of Silica compounds for faster warm-up, great water absorption ensuring great grip and traction
  • New stripe tread pattern design designed for improved water drainage and contact feeling at all lean angles

So maybe the authors from these sources are off their rockers - especially the material scientist at Bridgestone who authored US Patent 20030114571 and suggested that hydrophilic treads increase friction on wet surfaces. Does this guy look like someone to be believed?

Quote:
http://rubber.confex.com/rubber/180/webprogram/Person1425.html

Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan
Bridgestone Americas Center for Research and Technology
1200 Firestone Parkway
Akron, OH
USA 44317-0001
Email: [email protected]

Biographical Sketch: Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan has been employed as a material scientist at Bridgestone Americas Center for Research and Technology since October 1998. His research is focused on tire material development related to balanced improvement of driving safety.

Person_1425_image_446_0.jpg



All I can find are multiple sources that say that water adhesion to a tire surface improves wet traction. You're the only source I've seen that suggests that water adhesion to a tire is detrimental to wet traction. That "summer tires" often have better wet traction is a matter of lots of different factors.
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
You're the only source I've heard about this "hydrophobic" property of rubber.

When it rains really hard and your taxpayer-supported public servants are out in the streets performing public service, are they wearing any protection from the elements? The policemen and sewage workers and rescue personnel that I have seen usually are wearing yellow slickers. And what are "slickers"? Answer: rubber-coated cloth. Almost invariably, rubber-coated cloth. Slickers are made of rubber-coated cloth because rubber sheds water.
If you served in the Navy, what was government-issue gear to wear out on the deck in a storm? Rubber-coated cloth.
Rubber is flexible and sheds water. That is why it is the important part of rain slickers.

How long ago? I still see some wearing those bulky rubber slickers, but increasingly it's high-tech waterproof breathable membrane fabrics like Gore-Tex or other expanded PFTE or expanded polyurethane linings.
I know you're thinking of these things in terms that most people can grasp, but technology is far more complicated than these simple metaphors you use.

Apparently. your point appears to be that:
because some organizations now use Gore-Tex in rain slickers ,
it follows logically that:
rubber no longer sheds water
because
technology seems complicated to you.

Go for it.
grin.gif


You brought up the subject of rain gear. The fact is that rubber rain gear is way out of date because it has some serious drawbacks - namely almost zero breathability of water vapor from inside the garment. It certainly works though. The fish mongers I see wear rubber aprons, but they're in an environment where they want to be able to just hose off the apron at the end of the day and hang it to dry for the next day. If I were on the deck of a destroyer, I'd rather be in the waterproof breathable clothing.

But from a tire standpoint, I've pointed to several articles from technical journals, patent applications, and an interview with Bridgestone's former director of motorsports that point out that a hydrophilic tread compound is conducive to wet traction. You've pointed out that silicas are hydrophilic, and I've pointed out all the literature that indicates this is an advantage with wet traction. Here's another:

Quote:
http://www.ppg.com/specialty/silicas/productsegments/Pages/green_tires.aspx

Silica also significantly improves a tire’s responsive handling and steering capability in a variety of adverse weather conditions. For example, silica-containing treads have been shown to offer as much as a 15% increase in wet adhesion—or grip—that is crucial for driver control of braking, cornering and handling. These tires also have been shown to improve traction on icy roads.


Of course technology marches on. Apparently some of the new filler materials include nanoparticles including nanopolymers and nanoclay.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

That wet traction is improved by a tire where the tread holds onto some water and has been known for a long time. Here's an abstract of a technical article from 1956:

Quote:

So maybe the authors from these sources are off their rockers - especially the material scientist at Bridgestone who authored US Patent 20030114571 and suggested that hydrophilic treads increase friction on wet surfaces. Does this guy look like someone to be believed?

Quote:
http://rubber.confex.com/rubber/180/webprogram/Person1425.html

Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan
Bridgestone Americas Center for Research and Technology
1200 Firestone Parkway
Akron, OH
USA 44317-0001
Email: [email protected]

Biographical Sketch: Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan has been employed as a material scientist at Bridgestone Americas Center for Research and Technology since October 1998. His research is focused on tire material development related to balanced improvement of driving safety.

All I can find are multiple sources that say that water adhesion to a tire surface improves wet traction. You're the only source I've seen that suggests that water adhesion to a tire is detrimental to wet traction. That "summer tires" often have better wet traction is a matter of lots of different factors.

A very good college professor, probably quoting somebody else, once told me that when someone says, "That's fine in theory, but not in practice," the takeaway is that it is not fine in theory: empirical results have shown the theory to be erroneous.

Here are some examples of PRACTICE, tests by Tire Rack of suites of four tire brands/models per test session. I am focusing on braking wet and dry -- 50mph to 0 mph stopping distances.

PRACTICE: Measured real-world stopping distances of four models of all-season tires that have hydrophilic test compounds:
LINK: Tire Rack charts of UHP all-season tires

Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 86.4 feet
Wet: 104.9 feet (21.4 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Continental ExtremeContact DWS (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 86.2 feet
Wet: 107.2 feet (24.4 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 84.4 feet
Wet: 107.2 feet (27.1 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 83.6 feet
Wet: 100.0 feet (19.6 percent -- 16.4 feet -- longer stopping distance than dry)

So much for the theory that water adhesion to a tire surface improves traction; wet stopping distances are always greater than dry stopping distances. Practice trumps theory, every time.

Now using data from
LINK: Tire Rack tests of tires that are not hydrophilic compound-enhanced
which were conducted using the same vehicle as the tests above, and on the same test facility. Again concentrating on 50mph to 0mph stopping distances:

Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position (non-all-season analogue to the RE970AS above)
Dry: 81.7 feet (shorter stopping distance than RE970AS)
Wet: 95.4 feet (16.8 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Continental ExtremeContact DW (non-all-season analogue to the Continental ExtremeContact DWS above)
Dry: 82.3 feet (shorter stopping distance than ExtremeContact DWS)
Wet: 97.4 feet (18.3 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Michelin Pilot Super Sport (non-all-season analogue to Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 above)
Dry: 80.3 (shorter stopping distance than Pilot Sport A/S 3)
Wet: 96.3 (19.9 percent -- 16.0 feet -- longer stopping distance than dry)

Pirelli P Zero (standing in as a non-all-season analogue to the Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season above)
Dry: 82.9 feet (shorter stopping distance than Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season)
Wet: 97.2 feet (17.2 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Note that among same-brand pairs, not only does every all-season variant require a greater distance than the non-all-season variant to stop on dry pavement; not only does every all-season variant require a greater distance than the non-all-season variant to stop on wet pavement; but (excepting the anomalous Michelin pair), the percentage difference between the wet and dry stopping distances is generally greater on tires with hydrophilic tread compounds than it is for the non-all-season tires. Even with the Michelin pair, the difference between dry and wet stopping distances, measured in distance rather than as a percentage, is greater with the all-season variant than with the non-all-season variant.

Does Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan look like someone to be believed? On the point for which you want to cite him as an authority, frankly, NO. Real-world tests on his own company's tires show that his theory does not work in practice -- which means it is a bad theory. (I am sympathetic that the source of his paycheck may influence his public writings.)

The wet stopping distance for the Bridgestone all-season tire is 121.4 percent (and 17.5 feet) of the dry stopping distance for the same tire, while the wet stopping distance for the Bridgestone non-all-season tire is only 116.8 percent (and 13.7 feet) of the dry stopping distance. How can you extract a wet traction benefit of hydrophilic tread compounds from those data?
 
You constantly miss the point GC4lunch

Why dont you list the dry and wet stopping distances of summer tires..

oh wait their WET stopping distance is longer too..

that wasnt being discussed.. its known fact.

here I found a link for you.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=174

stopping distance 50-0

The average of the 4 summer tires took about 22% longer to stop in the wet vs dry.

you dont compare wet vs dry traction directly

you would have to compare the same tire with and without silica

by your "facts" the summer tires should stop better in the wet because they are summer tires??? That makes no sense
and it makes no sense All-seasons should stop better in the wet than dry. ALL tires take longer to stop in the wet.

you are trying to dumb this down and draw erroneous conclusions.

I'll give you a hint its not that simple.

Go compare a 80$dollar summer tire vs a 160$ michelin all season

then compare that to a 200$ michelin summer tire. and you can draw a whole bunch of erroneous results.

example
summer tires

Pilot super sport
dry vs wet stopping
78.9ft vs 95.1ft
on a 2012 BMW F30 328i Sedan


kumho KU31
91 vs 104
on
2011 BMW E92 328i Coupe

All Seasons
Michelin pilot sport A/S 3
83ft vs 100

on 2012 BMW F30 328i Sedan


So the all season michelin are out performing most summer tires.. wet and dry.

another thing you dont really touch on is.

Simplified:
hydroplaning resistance is mostly a function of TREAD PATTERN.
Traction is mostly a function of the Tread Compound.


In other words your arguments dont float.
 
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

That wet traction is improved by a tire where the tread holds onto some water and has been known for a long time. Here's an abstract of a technical article from 1956:

Quote:

So maybe the authors from these sources are off their rockers - especially the material scientist at Bridgestone who authored US Patent 20030114571 and suggested that hydrophilic treads increase friction on wet surfaces. Does this guy look like someone to be believed?

Quote:
http://rubber.confex.com/rubber/180/webprogram/Person1425.html

Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan
Bridgestone Americas Center for Research and Technology
1200 Firestone Parkway
Akron, OH
USA 44317-0001
Email: [email protected]

Biographical Sketch: Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan has been employed as a material scientist at Bridgestone Americas Center for Research and Technology since October 1998. His research is focused on tire material development related to balanced improvement of driving safety.

All I can find are multiple sources that say that water adhesion to a tire surface improves wet traction. You're the only source I've seen that suggests that water adhesion to a tire is detrimental to wet traction. That "summer tires" often have better wet traction is a matter of lots of different factors.

A very good college professor, probably quoting somebody else, once told me that when someone says, "That's fine in theory, but not in practice," the takeaway is that it is not fine in theory: empirical results have shown the theory to be erroneous.

Here are some examples of PRACTICE, tests by Tire Rack of suites of four tire brands/models per test session. I am focusing on braking wet and dry -- 50mph to 0 mph stopping distances.

PRACTICE: Measured real-world stopping distances of four models of all-season tires that have hydrophilic test compounds:
LINK: Tire Rack charts of UHP all-season tires

Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 86.4 feet
Wet: 104.9 feet (21.4 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Continental ExtremeContact DWS (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 86.2 feet
Wet: 107.2 feet (24.4 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 84.4 feet
Wet: 107.2 feet (27.1 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 (Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Dry: 83.6 feet
Wet: 100.0 feet (19.6 percent -- 16.4 feet -- longer stopping distance than dry)

So much for the theory that water adhesion to a tire surface improves traction; wet stopping distances are always greater than dry stopping distances. Practice trumps theory, every time.

Now using data from
LINK: Tire Rack tests of tires that are not hydrophilic compound-enhanced
which were conducted using the same vehicle as the tests above, and on the same test facility. Again concentrating on 50mph to 0mph stopping distances:

Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position (non-all-season analogue to the RE970AS above)
Dry: 81.7 feet (shorter stopping distance than RE970AS)
Wet: 95.4 feet (16.8 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Continental ExtremeContact DW (non-all-season analogue to the Continental ExtremeContact DWS above)
Dry: 82.3 feet (shorter stopping distance than ExtremeContact DWS)
Wet: 97.4 feet (18.3 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Michelin Pilot Super Sport (non-all-season analogue to Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 above)
Dry: 80.3 (shorter stopping distance than Pilot Sport A/S 3)
Wet: 96.3 (19.9 percent -- 16.0 feet -- longer stopping distance than dry)

Pirelli P Zero (standing in as a non-all-season analogue to the Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season above)
Dry: 82.9 feet (shorter stopping distance than Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season)
Wet: 97.2 feet (17.2 percent longer stopping distance than dry)

Note that among same-brand pairs, not only does every all-season variant require a greater distance than the non-all-season variant to stop on dry pavement; not only does every all-season variant require a greater distance than the non-all-season variant to stop on wet pavement; but (excepting the anomalous Michelin pair), the percentage difference between the wet and dry stopping distances is generally greater on tires with hydrophilic tread compounds than it is for the non-all-season tires. Even with the Michelin pair, the difference between dry and wet stopping distances, measured in distance rather than as a percentage, is greater with the all-season variant than with the non-all-season variant.

Does Dr. Xiao-Dong Pan look like someone to be believed? On the point for which you want to cite him as an authority, frankly, NO. Real-world tests on his own company's tires show that his theory does not work in practice -- which means it is a bad theory. (I am sympathetic that the source of his paycheck may influence his public writings.)

The wet stopping distance for the Bridgestone all-season tire is 121.4 percent (and 17.5 feet) of the dry stopping distance for the same tire, while the wet stopping distance for the Bridgestone non-all-season tire is only 116.8 percent (and 13.7 feet) of the dry stopping distance. How can you extract a wet traction benefit of hydrophilic tread compounds from those data?

The issue I have is that you have given zero evidence that these tires that perform better in the wet are not hydrophilic. You simply assume that their wet performance is a matter of their being hydrophobic, but have given no evidence that they are other than your conjecture that hydrophobic treads should perform better in wet conditions. You're doing a whole lot of handwaving to come to the conclusion that hydrophilic tires do worse in wet conditions than hydrophobic tires. You repeat the same thing over and over, but can't even provide a single technical source to back it up. I've found several sources from as far back as 1956 that indicate that water adhering to the tread is beneficial for wet traction. Metzeler's competition wet motorcycle tires are advertised as having improved wet traction for the very reason that water is absorbed by the high-silica tread.

You have acknowledged that silica helps with snow performance because water/snow sticks to tread - i.e. it's hydrophilic. However, all four of those summer tires you bring up are advertised as being "silica-rich" or of similar description either some place or another.

Quote:
http://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/potenza-s-04-pole-position

A silica-rich performance compound molded into an advanced asymmetric tread pattern delivers confident wet and dry performance.



Quote:
http://www.1010tires.com/Tires/Continental/ExtremeContact+DW

Silica-based, high-grip tread compound


Quote:
http://notchconsulting.wordpress.com/201...rformance-tire/

Michelin has announced the launch of a new super sport tire to replace its Michelin Pilot Sport 2. According to Michelin’s press release, the tire’s innovations include an aramid belt (using Twaron), as well as a bi-compound tread (silica and carbon black) and a “variable” contact patch.

According to Michelin, the tire’s aramid-reinforced belt is under variable tension, so that the center of the belt tightens more than the shoulders, leading to a more even geometry, even at high rotational speeds.

The bi-compound tread features a carbon black-reinforced material for good wear on the outer edge of the tread region, which bears the brunt of the wear under heavy cornering, while the inner region is silica-reinforced for good grip in the wet and straight-line performance.


I'll bring back this one from a maker of silanes to help dispersal of silica in rubber, but this time with the diagram:

Quote:
http://www.rubber-silanes.com/product/rubber-silanes/en/effects/wet-grip/pages/default.aspx


Wet grip

The trend towards faster and saver cars is going on. However, the single contact area to the street is given by the tires. Therefore, tires play a major role in the balance of driving fun and safety demands especially on wet road surfaces. Though the scientific basics of the wet braking phenomenons are still under investigation, one thing is clear: The introduction of the silica silane system in the early 90’s led to an immediate improvement of wet breaking distances by approx. 7 %. The filler silica bears a polar surface. In contrast to the non-polar Carbon Black, Silica containing rubber compounds can easilier penetrate a water film on the road surface. Contacts to the road surface can be guaranteed even under wet conditions. Together with the unique viscoelastic properties of silica-filled rubber compounds the stringent safety requirements of modern passenger car tire treads can be fulfilled. And even here rubber silanes can be seen as key ingredients. The reinforcement of the rubber compound requires the use of silane. Only then the balance between wet grip, wear and rolling resistance is guaranteed.

norm_full_wet-grip.jpg
 
Good lord how do you unsubscribe to this topic. The volumes of copy and paste are eating up my allotted bits....
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
Simplified:
hydroplaning resistance is mostly a function of TREAD PATTERN.
Traction is mostly a function of the Tread Compound.


In other words your arguments dont float.


There are various things that complicate the discussion with hydroplaning, such as contact patch. A lot of summer tires designed for dry handling have large contact patches (for the same tire size) by design.

However, he's been claiming for years here that the ability to shed water improves wet traction. The technical literature would seem to indicate the opposite as being true. He makes claims that certain tires perform better in the wet because they're hydrophobic, although there's nothing to back up that they're hydrophobic. The press releases and sales literature makes clear that they contain silicas, which are well-known hydrophilic materials that help reduce chunking, reduce rolling resistance, and improve wet traction. And he's acknowledged that this material is hydrophilic. But somehow when they're in tires that he describes as hydrophobic, the material is no longer hydrophilic?
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Good lord how do you unsubscribe to this topic. The volumes of copy and paste are eating up my allotted bits....

You subscribe to these topics? Sorry about the cutting and pasting. I'm doing this for my own amusement. Maybe I'm learning something along the way, but that's incidental to the fun factor.

It's no skin off my back. I realize that summer tires will probably perform better in normal wet or dry conditions where I live. However, I've got all-seasons because they tend to cost less, wear longer, and are quieter for my application. I'll occasionally go up where there's snow, and I'm not buying a set of winter tires for the rare times I do.

I know there's compromises, but I still value my safety. Rubber coated rain gear was mentioned. Works great in keeping water out. Also works great in keeping water in. So that's why there have been compromises over the years as well as advances in materials. Maybe a Gore-Tex jacket isn't as absolute in keeping out water as a a rubber coated slicker, but I need it to do other things too, including letting my sweat escape as water vapor rather than pool as liquid water on my shirt.

I've got all seasons on my car. Maybe there are some 3-season tires in my car's size that will work fine for my needs, but I haven't seen them. It gets down to the low 30s F every other winter around here, and I still need to get to work without my tires riding like the plastic wheels on my kid's toy shopping cart and without them chunking like summer tires are known to do at those temps.
 
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