High Performance Lubricants Engine Cleaner

[Drew7a]

You could run Mobil 1 FS 0w40 with a quart of EC for roughly the same price as you’re doing now. I haven’t asked Dave yet, but I assume there’s a good reason why the EC contains polar esters only, and not the AN/ester combo.

You could always run 1 quart of HPL PCEO in your mix rather than the quart of EC…

Using 1 qt PCEO won't be as strong as the cleaner or will it?

I plan on using quart of EC with every change until my stash is gone.

If you could ask Dave what the reason is with there is no ANs in the cleaner, inquiring minds want to know. Thx.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

You could run Mobil 1 FS 0w40 with a quart of EC for roughly the same price as you’re doing now. I haven’t asked Dave yet, but I assume there’s a good reason why the EC contains polar esters only, and not the AN/ester combo.

You could always run 1 quart of HPL PCEO in your mix rather than the quart of EC…

That's basically going in the '17 Accord next change. I have some M1 0W-40 I got on sale. 6 pack of HPL PCMO 5w-30 should be here Friday. Stock of XG7317 in the cabinet. I think I have 3800 miles currently on the EC30 / PP 0W-20 but was still showing like 60% on my MM, so might be February before change.

 

[OVERKILL]

Don’t AN and Esthers compete with each other?

No, where did you get that idea?

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

No, where did you get that idea?

I could have sworn I read something in an article to the effect of AN and ester affecting each other’s properties and that blenders have to be deliberate in mixing the two. Maybe ‘compete’ is the wrong word.

My takeaway was that it’s not as simple as more AN and more ester = always more gooder.

 

[OVERKILL]

I could have sworn I read something in an article to the effect of AN and ester affecting each other’s properties and that blenders have to be deliberate in mixing the two. Maybe ‘compete’ is the wrong word.

My takeaway was that it’s not as simple as more AN and more ester = always more gooder.

Esters compete for surface area with ZDDP and other additives, which is why adding AN's (which have fantastic solvency, but low polarity) and reducing ester content can result in better additive response and performance.

The original Mobil Tri-Syn was PAO/AN/Ester, hence the name.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Esters compete for surface area with ZDDP and other additives, which is why adding AN's (which have fantastic solvency, but low polarity) and reducing ester content can result in better additive response and performance.

The original Mobil Tri-Syn was PAO/AN/Ester, hence the name.

I’m not sure if this is the article I was thinking of originally, but it talks a little on it. Basically what I’m asking about is this: if a blend is already using AN then is there less utility in incorporating ester beyond a certain point? Ester does seem to have downsides.

In this sense they’re not necessarily competing chemically with each other directly… it’s more like they are competing for attention from the blender. Is it that with increasing AN usage, there is a decreasing point of optimal ester amount that is most effective in the blend? In other words once you’re using AN, does only so much ester have a benefit?

Polyalphaolefin (PAO), Esters & Alkylated Naphthalene (AN)

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) base oil can’t do it alone! Enter Esters and Alkylated Naphthalene (AN). Torco’s high tech base oils for high tech vehicles 100% PAO engine oils must be mixed with other base oils to maximize additive performance. Once upon a time this was accomplished with esters, but...

torcousa.com

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I’m not sure if this is the article I was thinking of originally, but it talks a little on it. Basically what I’m asking about is this: if a blend is already using AN then is there less utility in incorporating ester beyond a certain point? Ester does seem to have downsides.

In this sense they’re not necessarily competing chemically with each other directly… it’s more like they are competing for attention from the blender. Is it that with increasing AN usage, there is a decreasing point of optimal ester amount that is most effective in the blend? In other words once you’re using AN, does only so much ester have a benefit?

Polyalphaolefin (PAO), Esters & Alkylated Naphthalene (AN)

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) base oil can’t do it alone! Enter Esters and Alkylated Naphthalene (AN). Torco’s high tech base oils for high tech vehicles 100% PAO engine oils must be mixed with other base oils to maximize additive performance. Once upon a time this was accomplished with esters, but...

torcousa.com

@High Performance Lubricants can you comment on the 50,000’ view of this situation please?

My kingdom for a nugget of knowledge, if you will…

 

[OVERKILL]

I’m not sure if this is the article I was thinking of originally, but it talks a little on it. Basically what I’m asking about is this: if a blend is already using AN then is there less utility in incorporating ester beyond a certain point? Ester does seem to have downsides.

In this sense they’re not necessarily competing chemically with each other directly… it’s more like they are competing for attention from the blender. Is it that with increasing AN usage, there is a decreasing point of optimal ester amount that is most effective in the blend? In other words once you’re using AN, does only so much ester have a benefit?

Polyalphaolefin (PAO), Esters & Alkylated Naphthalene (AN)

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) base oil can’t do it alone! Enter Esters and Alkylated Naphthalene (AN). Torco’s high tech base oils for high tech vehicles 100% PAO engine oils must be mixed with other base oils to maximize additive performance. Once upon a time this was accomplished with esters, but...

torcousa.com

Each base oil has its benefits and detractors. I'm not sure I want to bother getting too much into it here, as I've written on it previously, but it's a balancing act and you have to know what you are trying to achieve with the final product.

- PAO has basically no solvency and is hard on seals (it shrinks them), so you have to blend it with something else to get that solvency, be it Group I/II, AN's or esters, and something to offset the seal shrink, which will be esters or AN's. PAO has incredible cold temperature performance, which is why it is often seen in the 0W-xx grades.

- Esters (generally, there are many different types) have high solvency and high polarity along with very good oxidation resistance, heat handling and seal compatibility, making them a good compliment for PAO. However, being polar, as I noted, they tend to compete for surface area with the anti-wear and FM additives, meaning you need higher doses of those compounds to maintain effectiveness.

- AN's have high solvency but low polarity, along with excellent oxidation resistance, high heat handling and seal compatibility. This also makes them a very good compliment to PAO. However, they have low VI's and generally poor cold temperature performance, which means you are limited as to how much you can use when blending a 0W-xx.

So, the idea with Tri-Syn was to capitalize on the strengths of PAO, while balancing its weaknesses with the AN/Ester mix. Using AN to reduce/offset some of the ester content meant better additive response, while the ester content offset some of the cold temperature impact the AN had.

Of course nowadays, with the improved Group III bases, there is less need, if any, for PAO in many of the grades, so you don't need the AN and/or ester content as a mitigation mechanism and you'll possibly just have some included to bump up performance and/or help with additive response (I'm sure there are other things too).

HPL uniquely blends Group III bases, not just PAO, with esters and AN's for their finished oils, depending on which family you are shopping, so getting a Group III based oil doesn't mean you skip out on the benefits of the esters and AN's.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Each base oil has its benefits and detractors. I'm not sure I want to bother getting too much into it here, as I've written on it previously, but it's a balancing act and you have to know what you are trying to achieve with the final product.

- PAO has basically no solvency and is hard on seals (it shrinks them), so you have to blend it with something else to get that solvency, be it Group I/II, PAO or Esters, and something to offset the seal shrink, which will be esters or AN's. PAO has incredible cold temperature performance, which is why it is often seen in the 0W-xx grades.

- Esters (generally, there are many different types) have high solvency and high polarity along with very good oxidation resistance, heat handling and seal compatibility, making them a good compliment for PAO. However, being polar, as I noted, they tend to compete for surface area with the anti-wear and FM additives, meaning you need higher doses of those compounds to maintain effectiveness.

- AN's have high solvency but low polarity, along with excellent oxidation resistance, high heat handling and seal compatibility. This also makes them a very good compliment to PAO. However, they have low VI's and generally poor cold temperature performance, which means you are limited as to how much you can use when blending a 0W-xx.

So, the idea with Tri-Syn was to capitalize on the strengths of PAO, while balancing its weaknesses with the AN/Ester mix. Using AN to reduce/offset some of the ester content meant better additive response, while the ester content offset some of the cold temperature impact the AN had.

Of course nowadays, with the improved Group III bases, there is less need, if any, for PAO in many of the grades, so you don't need the AN and/or ester content as a mitigation mechanism and you'll possibly just have some included to bump up performance and/or help with additive response (I'm sure there are other things too).

HPL uniquely blends Group III bases, not just PAO, with esters and AN's for their finished oils, depending on which family you are shopping, so getting a Group III based oil doesn't mean you skip out on the benefits of the esters and AN's.

Exactly. There were some incredible things I learned about HPL which cannot be shared without disclosing IP, so I won’t, but… let’s put it this way: Group III+ oils are not the limiting factor to the overall quality of a given final product like it was in the past. When you’re not simply trying to deliver the cheapest finished oil per pound, incredible things can be done, and quite cost effectively.

All the (M)SDS warriors would likely discount what is objectively one of the robust oils on the market, all based off false indicators of quality, and pass it up for an oil of lesser quality based off of spurious assumptions.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Each base oil has its benefits and detractors. I'm not sure I want to bother getting too much into it here, as I've written on it previously, but it's a balancing act and you have to know what you are trying to achieve with the final product.

- PAO has basically no solvency and is hard on seals (it shrinks them), so you have to blend it with something else to get that solvency, be it Group I/II, AN's or esters, and something to offset the seal shrink, which will be esters or AN's. PAO has incredible cold temperature performance, which is why it is often seen in the 0W-xx grades.

- Esters (generally, there are many different types) have high solvency and high polarity along with very good oxidation resistance, heat handling and seal compatibility, making them a good compliment for PAO. However, being polar, as I noted, they tend to compete for surface area with the anti-wear and FM additives, meaning you need higher doses of those compounds to maintain effectiveness.

- AN's have high solvency but low polarity, along with excellent oxidation resistance, high heat handling and seal compatibility. This also makes them a very good compliment to PAO. However, they have low VI's and generally poor cold temperature performance, which means you are limited as to how much you can use when blending a 0W-xx.

So, the idea with Tri-Syn was to capitalize on the strengths of PAO, while balancing its weaknesses with the AN/Ester mix. Using AN to reduce/offset some of the ester content meant better additive response, while the ester content offset some of the cold temperature impact the AN had.

Of course nowadays, with the improved Group III bases, there is less need, if any, for PAO in many of the grades, so you don't need the AN and/or ester content as a mitigation mechanism and you'll possibly just have some included to bump up performance and/or help with additive response (I'm sure there are other things too).

HPL uniquely blends Group III bases, not just PAO, with esters and AN's for their finished oils, depending on which family you are shopping, so getting a Group III based oil doesn't mean you skip out on the benefits of the esters and AN's.

Exactly. There were some incredible things I learned about HPL which cannot be shared without disclosing IP, so I won’t, but… let’s put it this way: Group III+ oils are not the limiting factor to the overall quality of a given final product like it was in the past. When you’re not simply trying to deliver the cheapest finished oil per pound, incredible things can be done, and quite cost effectively.

All the (M)SDS warriors would likely discount what is objectively one of the robust oils on the market, all based off false indicators of quality, and pass it up for an oil of lesser quality based off of spurious assumptions.

Thanks for the info. I don’t have much to add besides that it seems clear why their EC doesn’t contain the aforementioned AN and ester. With no knowledge of the host oil, there’s no guarantee of an optimal chemistry match, so why bother.

I am still curious how the relationship between the ratio of AN and ester works in PCMO for a given base stock though.

 

[OVERKILL]

Thanks for the info. I don’t have much to add besides that it seems clear why their EC doesn’t contain the aforementioned AN and ester. With no knowledge of the host oil, there’s no guarantee of a optimal chemistry match, so why bother.

I am still curious how the relationship between the ratio of AN and ester works in PCMO for a given base stock though.

Also important to keep in mind, but the AN's would add to the cleaning capability, and that may not be desirable.

 

[loneryder]

I'm only on my 3rd OCI, but the 2nd filter had less, and I expect the 3rd filter will have less still.

Where do you think it's coming from, Rings, pistons??

 

[OVERKILL]

Where do you think it's coming from, Rings, pistons??

Yeah, I assume the ring lands.

 

[drowned12]

I never got a reply emailing HPL (c'mon guys you can't take $1 out of the huge price tag to pay someone to reply to email?) so guess I'll try here: is running this cleaner time based or mileage based? It'll take me 6 months to reach 2000 miles so should I drain it after a couple months when most people would hit that mileage or let it run for actual 2000 miles? I figure it's soaking everything even when the car doesn't run but who knows...could be way more effective at operating temperature.

 

[dnewton3]

HPL cleaner is a ester based product. Time means nothing; go by miles. Unless you suspect a very heavy sludge/particulate loading present, then 3-4k miles would be fine. The longer you use it, the more chance it has to work it's magic.

I ran it for 5k miles in my wife's 2.5L Fusion; just a "normal" OCI with the HPL cleaner.

 

[MolaKule]

Thanks for the info. I don’t have much to add besides that it seems clear why their EC doesn’t contain the aforementioned AN and ester. With no knowledge of the host oil, there’s no guarantee of an optimal chemistry match, so why bother.

I am still curious how the relationship between the ratio of AN and ester works in PCMO for a given base stock though.

What is the optimal chemistry match and how would you determine that?

We're discussing an ester-based engine cleaner with a HDEO additive package.

For PCMO's:

If one uses a set of PAO base stocks the AN to PAO ratio is about 14%.

If one uses a set of PAO base stocks the ester to PAO ratio is about 3%, depending on ester type.

Esters are much more expensive than ANs, so if AN's alone perform well, even if one needs more AN in the formula, then why use an ester?

With the improved quality of AN's, with their oxidative stability and good seal swell characteristics, no ester is needed. In most cases, one uses either a Group III/PAO with an AN only, or one uses a Group III/PAO with an ester only.

BTW, there are non-hygroscopic esters with low oxidation potentials, that can be used in Boutique formulas and specialty applications.

Check out this additional, educational info:

An Overview of Esters in Synthetic Lubricants

Here is a technical paper on synthetic esters for lubricants. Tom NJ ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS By T. G. Schaefer In the simplest terms, esters can be defined as the reaction products of acids and alcohols. Thousands of different kinds of esters are commercially produced for a broad...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

What is the optimal chemistry match and how would you determine that?

We're discussing an ester-based engine cleaner with a HDEO additive package.

For PCMO's:

If one uses a set of PAO base stocks the AN to PAO ratio is about 14%.

If one uses a set of PAO base stocks the ester to PAO ratio is about 3%, depending on ester type.

Esters are much more expensive than ANs, so if AN's alone perform well, even if one needs more AN in the formula, then why use an ester?

With the improved quality of AN's, with their oxidative stability and good seal swell characteristics, no ester is needed. In most cases, one uses either a Group III/PAO with an AN only, or one uses a Group III/PAO with an ester only.

BTW, there are non-hygroscopic esters with low oxidation potentials, that can be used in Boutique formulas and specialty applications.

Check out this additional info:

An Overview of Esters in Synthetic Lubricants

Here is a technical paper on synthetic esters for lubricants. Tom NJ ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS By T. G. Schaefer In the simplest terms, esters can be defined as the reaction products of acids and alcohols. Thousands of different kinds of esters are commercially produced for a broad...

bobistheoilguy.com

Right, so how do you know what other swill is in the sump that you’re adding the EC to? It could be anything. Presumably EC would be blended with this in mind.

 

[MolaKule]

Right, so how do you know what other swill is in the sump that you’re adding the EC to? It could be anything. Presumably EC would be blended with this in mind.

Extensive testing of EC with known base oil formulations would determine both miscibility and compatibility.

 

[Drew7a]

Not sure I'd this has been answered before. Why does a VOA of EC show and elevated amount of contaminants like Silicone, Aluminum etc..

What causes these elevated readings?

 

[Jetronic]

Silicon can be an anti-foaming agent.

I haven't seen any VOA of HPL EC so can't comment further, except to say that too much precision is attributed to an oil analysis in general. get the same sample analyzed twice and you can get results 50% off....