Help....mixed Hoat with OAT

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC

There is also proof from other coolant manufacturers websites showing these coolants can be mixed.


No, there is a statement from a specific coolant manufacturer that THEIR coolants can be mixed. We then have a statement from Chrysler stating that their coolants CANNOT be mixed.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by StevieC

There is also proof from other coolant manufacturers websites showing these coolants can be mixed.


No, there is a statement from a specific coolant manufacturer that THEIR coolants can be mixed. We then have a statement from Chrysler stating that their coolants CANNOT be mixed.


Excellent point.
Coolants, unlike engine oils, have no specifications or a requirement to be compatible and mixable with each other. So just because one manufacturer chose and HOAT and OAT formulation to be mixable, others may not and in fact do not do so.

We cannot cherry pick one example and apply it to all HOAT and OAT coolants, especially in light of overwhelming evidence that other manufacturers specifically do not allow mixing of these formulas.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by StevieC

There is also proof from other coolant manufacturers websites showing these coolants can be mixed.


No, there is a statement from a specific coolant manufacturer that THEIR coolants can be mixed. We then have a statement from Chrysler stating that their coolants CANNOT be mixed.


And they stated it to eliminate confusion so that decreased corrosion protection doesn't happen and doesn't lead to sludge issues as the corroded parts that are now damage contribute to this. I explained this above. They aren't going to come out and list what I said because it's easier them to eliminate this confusion by saying all 2014 and newer vehicles use OAT only.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by demarpaint

Originally Posted by KrisZ
I think you're drawing wrong conclusions from your own research. All these formulas have to be compatible with all metals used in cooling systems because it's easier to ensure a coolant can be compatible with metals then carefully manage types of metals used in a cooling system to match the coolant.

What you're missing is that after the OAT and HOAT formulas are mixed, they react chemically to where the new mix can cause rust because its PH changed or because some other reaction took place. This is not evidence of HOAT being not compatible with metals, but the new mix of HOAT and OAT not being compatible with metals.

And that's just one possible reaction. Like it was mentioned, since OAT and HOAT are formulas, not ingredients, the ingredients to make them up can be different, so mixing them can result in different reactions. Rust is one of them, another is sludge or particles dropping out, etc. This is confirmed by a lot of complaints and the TSB cited.


Great points. He just can't let it die............There's no shame in admitting he's wrong, or that he made a mistake. Too bad really. The good news is I honestly believe after all this, anyone who reads it and mixes the two is not that bright.

I have admitted I was wrong and stand corrected many times before. No shame in it at all.

This I'm not wrong on because I've done it myself and I certainly won't be called wrong by folks that haven't because of how they are reading a TSB.


Will you put your money where your mouth is and pay the repair costs of a cooling system that gets messed up because you said the mix was OK? People rely on this board for information, it would be a shame they got info that caused them major problems. We aren't talking mixing into oil some Lubro-moly, using a flush, or mixing Mobil 1 and PYB here. We have data and a TSB showing the mix of the coolants is problematic.

I'm sorry to say the smart money is on the TSB, and information presented here, not you. FTR you have some pretty smart people reading that TSB, and they all seem to have interpreted it the same, except you.

 

[StevieC]

Because of how it's written. Furthermore go back and read what I said about mixing the two. I never advocated this.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
And they stated it to eliminate confusion so that decreased corrosion protection doesn't happen and doesn't lead to sludge issues as the corroded parts that are now damage contribute to this. I explained this above. They aren't going to come out and list what I said because it's easier them to eliminate this confusion by saying all 2014 and newer vehicles use OAT only.


You theorized that above.

Chrysler states:
Originally Posted by Chrysler
the coolant having an ammonia smell.


Which points to a chemical reaction between the components of the coolants. They also talk about accelerated corrosion, not simply the reduction in corrosion protection.

Also, they don't simply state "all 2014 and newer vehicles use OAT only". They go as far as stating:
Originally Posted by Chrysler
If OAT (MOPAR P/N 68163848AA Purple) has been Mixed with HOAT (MOPAR P/N 68048953AB Pink Or Factory Fill HOAT Orange (Fig. 2) or (Fig. 3)) or any other coolants have been mixed, it will be necessary to flush the cooling system.


Which is in-line with the potential issues indicated in the TSB, including the chemical interaction and subsequent ammonia smell.

Again, just because Fred Penner says you can safely mix his Word Bird Soup A with Word Bird Soup B, doesn't meant this extends beyond his magic log. You can theorize and try to explain away the severity of the language Chrysler has used here all you want, but at the end of the day, their words are the ones that matter and no amount of creative spin changes that.

 

[StevieC]

Done here... No point, we are going in circles. Believe what you want.

 

[4WD]

Well

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Well



One can only hope!!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
I think you're drawing wrong conclusions from your own research. All these formulas have to be compatible with all metals used in cooling systems because it's easier to ensure a coolant can be compatible with metals then carefully manage types of metals used in a cooling system to match the coolant.

Materials compatibility used to be tossed about a lot as an issue with different coolant types. I really can't say what's changed, whether materials compatibility or the panic over it.

 

[KrisZ]

Material compatibility has more to do with the non-metallic components, like gaskets, plastic, rubber, liquid gaskets, possibly silicone and other components used in cooling systems. Types of metals used on the other hand, is rather common across the automotive world.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Material compatibility has more to do with the non-metallic components, like gaskets, plastic, rubber, liquid gaskets, possibly silicone and other components used in cooling systems. Types of metals used on the other hand, is rather common across the automotive world.

Got proof of that?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Material compatibility has more to do with the non-metallic components, like gaskets, plastic, rubber, liquid gaskets, possibly silicone and other components used in cooling systems.

Those are the real concerns, but I actually was thinking of the metals, and how labels and magazine articles would warn about aluminum this and solder that or claim aluminum compatibility.

 

[Trav]

What more proof does he need other than GM plastic frame LIM failures with OAT coolant. I thought you were calling it quits, what happened no new videos to run the post count up so you come back to this. LOL

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Material compatibility has more to do with the non-metallic components, like gaskets, plastic, rubber, liquid gaskets, possibly silicone and other components used in cooling systems.

Those are the real concerns, but I actually was thinking of the metals, and how labels and magazine articles would warn about aluminum this and solder that or claim aluminum compatibility.


You're thinking waaaay back

And yes, back then it was a problem, type of solder used was also a problem, especially once the regulations started to remove harmful components from it, like lead. Metals are a non-issue now.
Here is a good Du-Pont paper describing the increased use of plastics, elastomers etc. in modern cooling systems. This trend is not going to go away, but intensify.

http://www2.dupont.com/Plastics/en_...ine-Cooling.pdf?=src_pt_enginecoolingpdf

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Trav
What more proof does he need other than GM plastic frame LIM failures with OAT coolant. I thought you were calling it quits, what happened no new videos to run the post count up so you come back to this. LOL

Jealous of the size of my post count compared to yours.

 

[KrisZ]

Here is a good article about protecting cooling systems from corrosion.

Here is a part of it talking about how corrosion protection is achieved and as it says, it's mainly though pH control and inhibitors. I already mentioned that mixing coolants can affect it's pH level and that alone can cause corrosion issues.
Quote
Protecting against corrosion

In general, corrosion can be reduced through pH control and corrosion inhibitor use. The inhibitors attach to the metal surfaces to passivate them and prevent corrosion. It is also important to maintain a stable water flow to avoid stagnant zones inside the cooling system, which can cause corrosion.

Quality of water also needs to be considered when trying to prevent corrosion. The corrosive effect of natural water can vary considerably depending on its chemical composition. As mentioned earlier in this article, chloride is corrosive and use of tap water should be minimized or avoided if it contains more than 100 ppm of chloride. Hardness of water also needs to be considered because it introduces calcium and magnesium, which form scale on the metal surfaces. Deionized water, demineralized water, or water that has been passed through a reverse osmosis process to remove harmful minerals and salts is highly recommended in order to avoid chloride and scale buildup. A suitable corrosion inhibitor must be used with deionized or demineralized water.

There are different inhibitors for use with different metals, each with its advantages and disadvantages.

Phosphate is an effective corrosion inhibitor for iron, steel, lead/tin solder, and most aluminum components. It is also a very good buffer for pH control. One disadvantage of phosphate is precipitation with calcium in hard water, which is one reason that deionized water is used for diluting a glycol/water coolant.
Tolyltriazole is a common and highly effective corrosion inhibitor for copper and brass.
Mercaptobenzothiazole also works for copper and brass, but it is not as stable as tolyltriazole.
Nitrite is an excellent corrosion inhibitor for iron. At high concentrations, this inhibitor is corrosive to lead/tin solder.
Silicate is an effective inhibitor for most metals but it tends to form thick deposits in cooling systems. The rust inhibitors in the automotive anti-freeze may cause premature failure of the pump seals.
Chromate and soluble oils have been used in the past, but their use has greatly diminished due to their toxicity. Modern inhibitors have replaced them.



https://www.lytron.com/Tools-and-Te.../Preventing-Corrosion-in-Cooling-Systems

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
You're thinking waaaay back

Yes, I am.

Remember, for me, the days when every jug of antifreeze on the shelf was original green, just in different packaging, and a long life antifreeze was something GM was just exploring, seem like yesterday to me. Now, if I want original green, at least up here, I have a chore ahead of me.

 

[Trav]

Not in the least, a lot of really good posters here have a lot more but that's the difference, they post quality informative post not quantity just for the sake of it.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by KrisZ
You're thinking waaaay back

Yes, I am.

Remember, for me, the days when every jug of antifreeze on the shelf was original green, just in different packaging, and a long life antifreeze was something GM was just exploring, seem like yesterday to me. Now, if I want original green, at least up here, I have a chore ahead of me.


I remember seeing still full very old cans of alcohol based antifreeze in the first real garage I worked it, The geezer never threw anything out,