Hatred for Ethanol

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted by turtlevette
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp

It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.



Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.[/

I hate getting into ethanol arguments.

90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .


No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.

10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.

When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.

That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.

Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.

Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.

While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?




Where are 2 quarts of water coming from?

The gas tank doesn't breathe that much. Is your kid pouring their drink in ?

Please.

You can't get any better gas dryer than ethanol. And you politically motivated are trying to spin it as a negative. The gas dryer additive used to come in a 12oz bottle and that was more than enough to dry a tank out.



As a side note on this, Traditionally the yellow bottle gas line antifreeze was methanol and methanol had a much lower phase separation point than ethanol. Gasoline also absorbs water and has a phase separation point obviously much lower than any mtbe, methanol, or ethanol mixtures.

So to continue on this the reason everyone sees this larger amount of separated fluid in ethanol mixtures verses straight gasoline or other mixtures is due to the amount of water than can be absorbed before the separation. As stated in several articles it is very unlikely to get enough water out of the air to cause it as all of the modes pull less water from the air and stop when they are saturated. This happens before phase separation happen. Then that leave the only means of gaining the amount of water is condensation or intrusion. This volume of water getting into the system as stated in various articles and by anyone's math is very difficult by air alone. I wish I could find a formula to figure out how fast and how much water can remove from the air but even doing the math to figure out how to circulate that much water in the air through the system without any of it being removed is difficult even is a poorly sealed system.


http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.547.1368&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by turtlevette
How is tracking good for the environment? Oil is dirty filthy in every way.

Try cooking your food with gasoline, diesel or kerosene, indoors.




If oil is so bad why is the ethanol industry using massive quantities of it in ethanol production and distribution?

 

[spasm3]

I'm trying to understand how ethanol for fuel is good for the environment

You have to plant it and spray it and fertilize it. They requires fuel for the tractors. You have to harvest it and transport it to a distillery using fuel. It has to be fermented and then heated and distilled this requires energy of some sort, i'm guessing natural gas. Then the ethanol as to be trucked ( using fuel) somewhere to be mixed with fuel.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by turtlevette
How is tracking good for the environment? Oil is dirty filthy in every way.

Try cooking your food with gasoline, diesel or kerosene, indoors.




If oil is so bad why is the ethanol industry using massive quantities of it in ethanol production and distribution?


You could run everything on ethanol. It'll probably happen eventually.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted by spasm3
I'm trying to understand how ethanol for fuel is good for the environment

You have to plant it and spray it and fertilize it. They requires fuel for the tractors. You have to harvest it and transport it to a distillery using fuel. It has to be fermented and then heated and distilled this requires energy of some sort, i'm guessing natural gas. Then the ethanol as to be trucked ( using fuel) somewhere to be mixed with fuel.


it's clean burning.

Oil has to be transported, pumped from the ground. Poisonous chemicals have to be injected into the ground at high pressure to frack. Oil needs natural gas to crack it. And it's all a hazardous substance.

Ethanol is not a hazardous substance.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted by turtlevette


it's clean burning.





But you have to burn all this fuel to produce it in order to add it to fuel. ? Burning all that diesel to add 10% or so to fuel order to make it burn a bit cleaner? So burning all that diesel is cleaner that just burning straight gasoline? BS.

Seems like its spending $10 to save $2 .

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by turtlevette
Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by turtlevette
How is tracking good for the environment? Oil is dirty filthy in every way.

Try cooking your food with gasoline, diesel or kerosene, indoors.




If oil is so bad why is the ethanol industry using massive quantities of it in ethanol production and distribution?


You could run everything on ethanol. It'll probably happen eventually.



You'll need a corn farm as large as the US to do that. Sounds very environmentally friendly.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by turtlevette
it's clean burning.

Oil has to be transported, pumped from the ground. Poisonous chemicals have to be injected into the ground at high pressure to frack. Oil needs natural gas to crack it. And it's all a hazardous substance.

Ethanol is not a hazardous substance.


And you have to harvest all that evil fossil fuel to grow, fertilise, and transport it, remember...What's the energy return on investment with corn ethanol ?

About 20% margin, so to displace 1 energy unit of gasoline, you use 0.8 in the manufacture of the ethanol.

Oh, and try storing it without bunding and a hazmat plan...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by jhellwig

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf

Saturated ethanol isn't going to fall out of suspension by water absorption from air alone. Once saturated it doesn't absorb more water. The water has to get in through another means to cause phase separation.


When the water content reaches the line in the chart that I showed you, the water/ethanol phase falls out.

So what if it's more water than just gas alone, the gas isn't hungry for the water like the ethanol is...it's (ethanol) used as a dessicant for crying out loud).

It encourages water migration into tanks, it encourages underground tank, pipe and gasket leakage.

Look at the solubility chart, and if it's underground, and warm, then pumped into a cold tank, it's solubility drops...that can explain the phenomenon that people clearly have experienced...

Originally Posted by turtlevette

You really need to get out of management and back into doing real engineering. Yes I believe a very small molecule like hydrogen can move thru rubber. But water?

And its no more humid on water than it is on land. These arguments are dumb stupid stuff.

Everyone in the world uses E10 and you people are trying to create arguments like it can't even work properly.



believe...as opposed to understanding, yes that's your approach to engineering.

Go back to your closet camel...how much water does it collect ?

Where does the water come from and how is it transported there.

Does it collect more water in coastal areas than inland areas ?

Why ?

When there's a dessicant, it dries the air out around it, creating a local gradient in the partial pressures of water, which is then filled by more transport of water vapour from the surrounding air.

I'm certainly not stating that E10 doesn't work...I'm countering arguments made in ignorance, by peple pretending that they know stuff, and rejecting what has been demonstrated as fact by SOME users of the products.

Why are Trav's customers in a marine environment having issues, when you lot are saying that they can't possible exist ?

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by jhellwig

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf

Saturated ethanol isn't going to fall out of suspension by water absorption from air alone. Once saturated it doesn't absorb more water. The water has to get in through another means to cause phase separation.


When the water content reaches the line in the chart that I showed you, the water/ethanol phase falls out.

So what if it's more water than just gas alone, the gas isn't hungry for the water like the ethanol is...it's (ethanol) used as a dessicant for crying out loud).

It encourages water migration into tanks, it encourages underground tank, pipe and gasket leakage.

Look at the solubility chart, and if it's underground, and warm, then pumped into a cold tank, it's solubility drops...that can explain the phenomenon that people clearly have experienced...

Originally Posted by turtlevette

You really need to get out of management and back into doing real engineering. Yes I believe a very small molecule like hydrogen can move thru rubber. But water?

And its no more humid on water than it is on land. These arguments are dumb stupid stuff.

Everyone in the world uses E10 and you people are trying to create arguments like it can't even work properly.



believe...as opposed to understanding, yes that's your approach to engineering.

Go back to your closet camel...how much water does it collect ?

Where does the water come from and how is it transported there.

Does it collect more water in coastal areas than inland areas ?

Why ?

When there's a dessicant, it dries the air out around it, creating a local gradient in the partial pressures of water, which is then filled by more transport of water vapour from the surrounding air.

I'm certainly not stating that E10 doesn't work...I'm countering arguments made in ignorance, by peple pretending that they know stuff, and rejecting what has been demonstrated as fact by SOME users of the products.

Why are Trav's customers in a marine environment having issues, when you lot are saying that they can't possible exist ?

I understand the chart you posted. Read the rest of the article you got it from and the one I posted. I am just saying that it is [censored] near impossible to get that much water exposure to the fuel system from air alone. Pure ethanol is hydroscopic. Start adding water to it and that ability is decreased the more water it gets.

Why does everyone treat ethanol like it is putting a straw in the ocean and sucking it up? If you fuel system is semi sealed it isn't going to happen.

IT ISNT COMMING IN FROM THE AIR ALONE!!!!!

 

[jhellwig]

Can't edit it any more.

It isn't all comming from the air. Not even the majority of it.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by jhellwig
Can't edit it any more.

It isn't all comming from the air. Not even the majority of it.

Are you considering the time involved?

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Can't edit it any more.

It isn't all comming from the air. Not even the majority of it.

Are you considering the time involved?

When I did my calculation I assumed a 20 degree temp change and took that change in volume of 50 gallons of gasoline to figure out how many cycles it would take to move a volume of air containing a gallon of water. That was 260 some odd days. Far longer than a boat would be stored in Florida I am guessing. The numbers I used would have exposed the fuel to more water in that amount of time than would actually happen even in Florida.

Here is a study from the renewable fuels association that essentially says I have been talking out my hind end. https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/u...of-Water-Uptake-by-Ethanol-RFA-09-16.pdf It looks like their conclusion is you either need no ethanol in the fuel or 25% or more to not have a phase separation issue in storage. It also basically says most of the fuel is junk regardless of ethanol content in 3 months.

I don't know what to believe anymore. You can find proof for any statement you want to make if you look hard enough.

As I have stated several time here in my corner of the world I can leave e10 in most equipment for a year without stabilizer and still be able to start and run it when needed. I have a chainsaw that has problems with fuel over a month old even with premium e0 and a double dose of stabilizer. I have seen phase separation once in a lawnmower and all I did was shake it a few times and fill the tank up with e10 on top of what was in it and it never cause an issue. The water came from a leak in the roof of my shed.

 

[hatt]

Air expands and contracts a lot more than fuel. What are the numbers for a 50 gallon tank that's 25% full of fuel with 75% humidity?

 

[Shannow]

Worst combination is a half tank of e10 and half tank of e0.

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted by hatt
Air expands and contracts a lot more than fuel. What are the numbers for a 50 gallon tank that's 25% full of fuel with 75% humidity?

I don't know and I really don't care anymore. I proved my point and then refuted it. Up is down. Left is right.

Taking into account all the negatives and positives I believe ethanol in fuel has a net positive effect.

 

[hatt]

Of course someone in Iowa believes ethanol is a good thing. I'm not seeing the net positive effects here in FL. By the time it's all said and done you're barely reducing the usage of oil in the US.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted by hatt
Of course someone in Iowa believes ethanol is a good thing. I'm not seeing the net positive effects here in FL. By the time it's all said and done you're barely reducing the usage of oil in the US.


When is it going to be all said and done?

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by turtlevette
Originally Posted by hatt
Of course someone in Iowa believes ethanol is a good thing. I'm not seeing the net positive effects here in FL. By the time it's all said and done you're barely reducing the usage of oil in the US.


When is it going to be all said and done?


When you get finished with that class on reading comprehension.

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted by hatt
Of course someone in Iowa believes ethanol is a good thing. I'm not seeing the net positive effects here in FL. By the time it's all said and done you're barely reducing the usage of oil in the US.

I actually make my living from gasoline and diesel fuel.