The problem with ethanol is dealing with all the popcorn if you let your engine run hot. At least you have something to eat while waiting for a tow truck but it leaves you thirsty.
Hatred for Ethanol
- Thread starter Snagglefoot
- Start date
- Status
The ethanol lobby is running radio adds locally promoting how great it is. It's interesting that the tag line is "more ethanol, more octane". This is false - at least locally. E10 is mandated here, and the octane rating of the fuel choices are the same as everywhere else. Even E15 only comes in 87 octane.
I don't mind the stuff, but would actually prefer a choice.
I don't mind the stuff, but would actually prefer a choice.
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Back on the 1980's, I used to go out of my way to a station that sold Gasahol (ethanol) to keep the fuel lines and carburetor clean. Also did the job of Dry Gas in the winter.
Today, there are nearby stations that sell 100% gas. I tried it for a couple weeks. NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy. E10 also a lot cheaper. (Tried E85 once in my Flex Fuel Mercedes once. - yes, mileage went down).
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Back on the 1980's, I used to go out of my way to a station that sold Gasahol (ethanol) to keep the fuel lines and carburetor clean. Also did the job of Dry Gas in the winter.
Today, there are nearby stations that sell 100% gas. I tried it for a couple weeks. NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy. E10 also a lot cheaper. (Tried E85 once in my Flex Fuel Mercedes once. - yes, mileage went down).
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
My problem with ethanol?
1. Huge government scam.
2. Eats old fuel systems for breakfast. Ate through the fuel lines of my Charger.
3. Eats fiberglass fuel tanks.
4. Gums and crusts carburetors, jamming the jets, or cementing the float the bottom of the bowl.
5. Loves to attract water, causing complete shutdown of the victim equipment.
There hasn't been a single week in my life that we haven't dealt with at least one boat with some kind of ethanol problem. Fixed plenty of OPE for neighbors that had the same exact gum and crust jamming their carbs. Mysteriously, E0 magically results in these problems not returning.
1. Huge government scam.
2. Eats old fuel systems for breakfast. Ate through the fuel lines of my Charger.
3. Eats fiberglass fuel tanks.
4. Gums and crusts carburetors, jamming the jets, or cementing the float the bottom of the bowl.
5. Loves to attract water, causing complete shutdown of the victim equipment.
There hasn't been a single week in my life that we haven't dealt with at least one boat with some kind of ethanol problem. Fixed plenty of OPE for neighbors that had the same exact gum and crust jamming their carbs. Mysteriously, E0 magically results in these problems not returning.
Originally Posted by Reddy45
Mandates.
There is 7 states who mandate E-10 useage. The federal side provides credits for refiners to blend it. Yet it is not a mandate.
Mandates.
There is 7 states who mandate E-10 useage. The federal side provides credits for refiners to blend it. Yet it is not a mandate.
Originally Posted by Crispysea
87 octane E10 is probably about 84 octane without the ethanol. It's a cheap way to boost octane. Too much octane can be worse, if you have an engine not made for it. E85 would be somewhere around 110 octane.
Please explain how.
87 octane E10 is probably about 84 octane without the ethanol. It's a cheap way to boost octane. Too much octane can be worse, if you have an engine not made for it. E85 would be somewhere around 110 octane.
Please explain how.
+1, would like to understand that one also...have heard it a few times, but not why.
My views on Ethanol are mixed...Brazil is a good example. Not none of this is intended to be political, the timing described is because that's where we were at the time.
Gulf War 1
Was in my last year of my mech eng degree. Doing my thesis on inlet manifold fuel flows and developing a Direct Injection airlflow test rig to sit on the same vacuum apparatus...spent a week cleaning up the test rig, as the previous year thesis student was testing alcohols (predominantly methanol), and walked away after his work was done...it sat there for 5 months, and was packed full of white powder corrosion product (interestingly CRC "System 1" cleaner was the only thing that re-established flow.
Fuel prices soaring, CSR (the sugar mob) approached the Govt about setting up a local (sugar) ethanol industry, and if the "sin" taxes were excluded, would be on price/energy parity with R.U.G...got rejected, and the country lost. I was disappointed.
Much later, ethanol then was chosen as a winner, and fuel companies given targets to sell.
Petrol was $1.00 a litre (or thereabouts), and E10 sold alongside it for 96c
Grain based, not a fan.
Later, with petrol around $1.40-$1.50/l, the price differential didn't keep up, and dropped to 3c...customer lost at that point...and they started walking.
Which lead to a number of secret lunches (lunches that were denied, but media proved them under FOI) between politicians and Manildra to make a mandate, and or move to E15...sneaky politics, Premier lost his job (over it and other stuff).
It's still grain based, and sold alongside E0 in many places...the price gap doesn't warrant purchasing it.
But we've also got other products available because of it.
E0 is 91-92RON
95 premium
98 premium
There's
91-92RON E10
94RON E10
100RON E10 premium.
And I've used the last two quite a bit when I had the supercharged Caprice.
Don't hate it. Don't like the Oz model. Should be able to stand on it's own two feet so to speak as an alternative.
My views on Ethanol are mixed...Brazil is a good example. Not none of this is intended to be political, the timing described is because that's where we were at the time.
Gulf War 1
Was in my last year of my mech eng degree. Doing my thesis on inlet manifold fuel flows and developing a Direct Injection airlflow test rig to sit on the same vacuum apparatus...spent a week cleaning up the test rig, as the previous year thesis student was testing alcohols (predominantly methanol), and walked away after his work was done...it sat there for 5 months, and was packed full of white powder corrosion product (interestingly CRC "System 1" cleaner was the only thing that re-established flow.
Fuel prices soaring, CSR (the sugar mob) approached the Govt about setting up a local (sugar) ethanol industry, and if the "sin" taxes were excluded, would be on price/energy parity with R.U.G...got rejected, and the country lost. I was disappointed.
Much later, ethanol then was chosen as a winner, and fuel companies given targets to sell.
Petrol was $1.00 a litre (or thereabouts), and E10 sold alongside it for 96c
Grain based, not a fan.
Later, with petrol around $1.40-$1.50/l, the price differential didn't keep up, and dropped to 3c...customer lost at that point...and they started walking.
Which lead to a number of secret lunches (lunches that were denied, but media proved them under FOI) between politicians and Manildra to make a mandate, and or move to E15...sneaky politics, Premier lost his job (over it and other stuff).
It's still grain based, and sold alongside E0 in many places...the price gap doesn't warrant purchasing it.
But we've also got other products available because of it.
E0 is 91-92RON
95 premium
98 premium
There's
91-92RON E10
94RON E10
100RON E10 premium.
And I've used the last two quite a bit when I had the supercharged Caprice.
Don't hate it. Don't like the Oz model. Should be able to stand on it's own two feet so to speak as an alternative.
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Back on the 1980's, I used to go out of my way to a station that sold Gasahol (ethanol) to keep the fuel lines and carburetor clean. Also did the job of Dry Gas in the winter.
Today, there are nearby stations that sell 100% gas. I tried it for a couple weeks. NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy. E10 also a lot cheaper. (Tried E85 once in my Flex Fuel Mercedes once. - yes, mileage went down).
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. To move this amount of air in and out of the tank solely by expansion and contraction of gasoline would take 261 days assuming 50 gallons of gasoline makes a 20 degree change in tempature a day. This is solely to move that much water through the tank by air. You will not get even a quarter of that much water out of the air by condensation in that time. Then you have the vapor pressure of the gasoline and ethanol reducing the volume of air that can get into the tank. Pure ethanol is hydroscopic but e10 would be much less so.
The water got in there through another route than air.
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Back on the 1980's, I used to go out of my way to a station that sold Gasahol (ethanol) to keep the fuel lines and carburetor clean. Also did the job of Dry Gas in the winter.
Today, there are nearby stations that sell 100% gas. I tried it for a couple weeks. NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy. E10 also a lot cheaper. (Tried E85 once in my Flex Fuel Mercedes once. - yes, mileage went down).
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. To move this amount of air in and out of the tank solely by expansion and contraction of gasoline would take 261 days assuming 50 gallons of gasoline makes a 20 degree change in tempature a day. This is solely to move that much water through the tank by air. You will not get even a quarter of that much water out of the air by condensation in that time. Then you have the vapor pressure of the gasoline and ethanol reducing the volume of air that can get into the tank. Pure ethanol is hydroscopic but e10 would be much less so.
The water got in there through another route than air.
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Originally Posted by Shannow
Don't need expansion and contraction...diffusion will do it it's own way.
What?
Please.
With 80 dollar oil ethanol will make a huge comeback and well have to hear all the old curmudgeons cry.
Don't need expansion and contraction...diffusion will do it it's own way.
What?
Please.
With 80 dollar oil ethanol will make a huge comeback and well have to hear all the old curmudgeons cry.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by turtlevette
Originally Posted by Shannow
Don't need expansion and contraction...diffusion will do it it's own way.
What?
Please.
Don't you believe in diffusion ?
As an educated man, I find that hard to believe...it's how oxygen leaks INTO nitrogen filled tyres, it's how oxygen gets INTO transformers through leaking gaskets. even 'though it's below the oil level.
Look at your closet camel (Calcium Chloride), how does IT collect so much water when the doors are always closed, and your house isn't going under the quoted expansion and contraction.
Originally Posted by Shannow
Don't need expansion and contraction...diffusion will do it it's own way.
What?
Please.
Don't you believe in diffusion ?
As an educated man, I find that hard to believe...it's how oxygen leaks INTO nitrogen filled tyres, it's how oxygen gets INTO transformers through leaking gaskets. even 'though it's below the oil level.
Look at your closet camel (Calcium Chloride), how does IT collect so much water when the doors are always closed, and your house isn't going under the quoted expansion and contraction.
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
So by your chart it only needs to get a quarter gallon of water in the 50 gallons of fuel I used to figure my numbers correct? By my numbers I explained it would take 260 some odd days for that much moisture that could possibly be extracted to go through the fuel system by air. With the lower tempatures that what I figured it on and most likely less expansion and contraction that what I figured it would be much longer even taking into account the lower amount of water needed to cause a phase separation. Do you really think that a plastic tank of fuel absorbed that much water in that time without it coming from the air?
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
So by your chart it only needs to get a quarter gallon of water in the 50 gallons of fuel I used to figure my numbers correct? By my numbers I explained it would take 260 some odd days for that much moisture that could possibly be extracted to go through the fuel system by air. With the lower tempatures that what I figured it on and most likely less expansion and contraction that what I figured it would be much longer even taking into account the lower amount of water needed to cause a phase separation. Do you really think that a plastic tank of fuel absorbed that much water in that time without it coming from the air?
Generally, my vehicles run fine on 10% ethanol. For my outboard boat motor, though, its a no-go. What I don't like about ethanol is the government involvement in it, primarily through subsidies to artificially prop it up.
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf
Saturated ethanol isn't going to fall out of suspension by water absorption from air alone. Once saturated it doesn't absorb more water. The water has to get in through another means to cause phase separation.
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf
Saturated ethanol isn't going to fall out of suspension by water absorption from air alone. Once saturated it doesn't absorb more water. The water has to get in through another means to cause phase separation.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by maxdustington
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Back on the 1980's, I used to go out of my way to a station that sold Gasahol (ethanol) to keep the fuel lines and carburetor clean. Also did the job of Dry Gas in the winter.
Today, there are nearby stations that sell 100% gas. I tried it for a couple weeks. NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy. E10 also a lot cheaper. (Tried E85 once in my Flex Fuel Mercedes once. - yes, mileage went down).
Fake news!
Originally Posted by Yah-Tah-Hey
Originally Posted by maxdustington
I hate it when the government decides the winners and losers.
How do you feel about the federal government setting piloting and maintenance standards for the airliner you are in at thirty nine thousand feet and moving along at five hundred miles an hour? We haven't seen too many aviation accidents like the TWA/United mid-airs over the Grand Canyon and Brooklyn since the government set up the flight control system we have in place today.
Strong regulatory bodies have nothing to do with winners and losers. I work in construction and inspectors can be a pain but, if you are legit you rarely have any issues. Everyone agrees this is the way it should be: tough but fair. Buying the votes of midwestern corn farmers with subsidies is not a regulatory function. Do you follow the NAFTA re negotiations? Our government put our entire auto sector on the line when our economy is tanking to protect rich Quebec dairy farmers. That is what determining winners and losers is.
Over regulation by quasi independent government agency like the EPA. Couldn't agree more. The ethanol mandate has created jobs in our area and a market for growers ,but I don't think anyone is making big bucks from ethanol, at least not at the local level. Valero and ADM maybe. Didn't ethanol production ramp up because EPA mandated a new additive to gasoline after MTBE showed up in ground water?
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Back on the 1980's, I used to go out of my way to a station that sold Gasahol (ethanol) to keep the fuel lines and carburetor clean. Also did the job of Dry Gas in the winter.
Today, there are nearby stations that sell 100% gas. I tried it for a couple weeks. NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy. E10 also a lot cheaper. (Tried E85 once in my Flex Fuel Mercedes once. - yes, mileage went down).
Fake news!
Originally Posted by Yah-Tah-Hey
Originally Posted by maxdustington
I hate it when the government decides the winners and losers.
How do you feel about the federal government setting piloting and maintenance standards for the airliner you are in at thirty nine thousand feet and moving along at five hundred miles an hour? We haven't seen too many aviation accidents like the TWA/United mid-airs over the Grand Canyon and Brooklyn since the government set up the flight control system we have in place today.
Strong regulatory bodies have nothing to do with winners and losers. I work in construction and inspectors can be a pain but, if you are legit you rarely have any issues. Everyone agrees this is the way it should be: tough but fair. Buying the votes of midwestern corn farmers with subsidies is not a regulatory function. Do you follow the NAFTA re negotiations? Our government put our entire auto sector on the line when our economy is tanking to protect rich Quebec dairy farmers. That is what determining winners and losers is.
Over regulation by quasi independent government agency like the EPA. Couldn't agree more. The ethanol mandate has created jobs in our area and a market for growers ,but I don't think anyone is making big bucks from ethanol, at least not at the local level. Valero and ADM maybe. Didn't ethanol production ramp up because EPA mandated a new additive to gasoline after MTBE showed up in ground water?
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
Where are 2 quarts of water coming from?
The gas tank doesn't breathe that much. Is your kid pouring their drink in ?
Please.
You can't get any better gas dryer than ethanol. And you politically motivated are trying to spin it as a negative. The gas dryer additive used to come in a 12oz bottle and that was more than enough to dry a tank out.
Originally Posted by jhellwig
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by ctrcbob
It does NOT attract moisture/water. It absorbs moisture/water that is already there and allows it to burn.
Lies. I've pumped tanks that took on enough water to render a boat dead from from water absorption by ethanol fuel. Systems that checked out to have zero leaks anywhere in the system to allow water intrusion. The water was completely separated from the fuel. Pumped a solid gallon or more before stank fuel came out.
I hate getting into ethanol arguments.
90% humidity air at 86 degrees would take 138 cubic meters of air to hold a gallon of water. .
No, it's YOU who doesn't get it.
10 gallons of E10 has … lets calculate it out, carry the zero, and ignoring rounding errors … a gallon of ethanol.
When there is sufficient water in the two phase mixture, the entire ethanol component bombs out, because it prefers greatly to be with the water than the gasoline.
That's a WHOLE gallon of stuff that's sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Well it's more than a gallon, as it's got the water in it as well that it got out of the atmosphere...and note that the atmosphere around a boat is pretty humid...PLUS it wasn't used over winter, which is typically the coldest pat of the year.
Below is a chart of the amount of water it takes per volume of E10 to precipitate a phase change...above the line and you are golden...below the line and the ethanol bombs out (with the attached water)
Note:
* that it's temperature dependent,
* once it's dropped out, raising the temperature doesn't make it go back into solution
* how small a quantity it is...about a percent.
While I don't recognise the technique that you used as valid doesn't that bring it to under a month ?
Where are 2 quarts of water coming from?
The gas tank doesn't breathe that much. Is your kid pouring their drink in ?
Please.
You can't get any better gas dryer than ethanol. And you politically motivated are trying to spin it as a negative. The gas dryer additive used to come in a 12oz bottle and that was more than enough to dry a tank out.
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Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by turtlevette
Originally Posted by Shannow
Don't need expansion and contraction...diffusion will do it it's own way.
What?
Please.
Don't you believe in diffusion ?
As an educated man, I find that hard to believe...it's how oxygen leaks INTO nitrogen filled tyres, it's how oxygen gets INTO transformers through leaking gaskets. even 'though it's below the oil level.
Look at your closet camel (Calcium Chloride), how does IT collect so much water when the doors are always closed, and your house isn't going under the quoted expansion and contraction.
You really need to get out of management and back into doing real engineering. Yes I believe a very small molecule like hydrogen can move thru rubber. But water?
And its no more humid on water than it is on land. These arguments are dumb stupid stuff.
Everyone in the world uses E10 and you people are trying to create arguments like it can't even work properly.
I'm sorry about your jobs.
Originally Posted by turtlevette
Originally Posted by Shannow
Don't need expansion and contraction...diffusion will do it it's own way.
What?
Please.
Don't you believe in diffusion ?
As an educated man, I find that hard to believe...it's how oxygen leaks INTO nitrogen filled tyres, it's how oxygen gets INTO transformers through leaking gaskets. even 'though it's below the oil level.
Look at your closet camel (Calcium Chloride), how does IT collect so much water when the doors are always closed, and your house isn't going under the quoted expansion and contraction.
You really need to get out of management and back into doing real engineering. Yes I believe a very small molecule like hydrogen can move thru rubber. But water?
And its no more humid on water than it is on land. These arguments are dumb stupid stuff.
Everyone in the world uses E10 and you people are trying to create arguments like it can't even work properly.
I'm sorry about your jobs.
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