Gripe over Gun Store Practices.

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I'm not trying to defend what the dealer did here. But the fact remains that the sale of guns, along with the sale of liquor is licensed and tightly regulated. If a firearms dealer loses his FFL for whatever reason, his business for the most part no longer exists. Same with a bar owner losing his liquor license.

Because of that, they will most always err on the side of caution involving the sale of either. Rather than risk any type of situation that might cost them their business, and even possibly bring criminal charges against them. This means they will not always make the correct decision in regards to the way the law is written. But rather the SAFE one that better protects their interests in the long run.
 
Let's remember this is OP's POV.

His son has all these parts "except one" but magically and only according to OP this is going to wind up assembled as something of "his".

On the way out the door, kid should have said, "okay, I'll be back when I'm 21". Why blow up a relationship with a store that might be cool/ useful at the start of one's gun totin' life?
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Let's remember this is OP's POV.

His son has all these parts "except one" but magically and only according to OP this is going to wind up assembled as something of "his".


Yes, I was a bit skeptical of that claim as well...
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
His son has all these parts "except one" but magically and only according to OP this is going to wind up assembled as something of "his".


Do the other parts matter? The lower is the part with the serial number and the lower is the part that's regulated.
 
So, reviewing form 4473...

OP is obviously not a straw purchaser because he is buying the lower for himself.

Random guy is probably not a straw purchaser, unless he has reason to believe his wife is mentally ill. (No jokes, please.)

I don't see where it says that an FFL needs to run a NICS check on everyone within arm's length of a purchaser, everyone in a purchaser's family, or everyone in the store just in case a prohibited possessor is signaling which guns to buy.

I think we've all run into unpleasant and/or uninformed gun store employees, so I don't know why anyone would question OP.
 
As someone posted before, the shop, pun intended, is gun shy. I helped a new shop many years ago with making sure the paper work was in order on a limited amount of sales. One sale in the first month was to a bad party, but all the legal paperwork was done and clearances run through the feds. Having to shut the shop down for half a day to be grilled by 3 feds and same number of local law is not a pleasant experience. Owner vowed to never sell to another.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ethan1
So, reviewing form 4473...

OP is obviously not a straw purchaser because he is buying the lower for himself.

Random guy is probably not a straw purchaser, unless he has reason to believe his wife is mentally ill. (No jokes, please.)

I don't see where it says that an FFL needs to run a NICS check on everyone within arm's length of a purchaser, everyone in a purchaser's family, or everyone in the store just in case a prohibited possessor is signaling which guns to buy.

I think we've all run into unpleasant and/or uninformed gun store employees, so I don't know why anyone would question OP.


I believe your interpretation to be questionable and based on only one side of events by a customer who was perhaps clouded by self-descrihed anger.

The FFL holder thought there was reasonable grounds to prevent the sale and he does this every day of his life.
It is his livelihood.

You just read a form once?

Additionally you have twisted the narrative.

Two people enter a gun shop together. One is legally allowed to purchase a component regulated by Federal Law. The other person is not legally allowed to purchase the component and he has collected ALL the parts necessary to assemble a weapon except this part. There is a discussion between these two people. The individual legally alowed to make the purchase then attempts to make the purchase.

Do you have any understanding of the methods straw purchases have taken place?

Exactly this same manner.

The FFL holder was entirely within his rights.
 
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
The Anti-gun movement I alive and well in America. What part of shall not infringe are they having a problem?



Was the FFL holder a part of the "anti-gun" movement?
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
The Anti-gun movement I alive and well in America. What part of shall not infringe are they having a problem?



Was the FFL holder a part of the "anti-gun" movement?


In some cases because they don't want you to buy a gun without putting money in their pocket! Just ask them how many support guns so much they be willing to do transfers for free!
 
Well I may add I was a FFL holder in the 90s do I do know the laws. Granted some new laws have been added since I was a dealer. I never shared any information with the gun shop about my son having all the parts to build a rifle, frankly it's none of thier bussiness. I was making the purchase and they were being jerks. I did respect thier rights that it's thier store and you can sell to who you want but don't turn around and do what you just refused to do because of legality.
Furthermore with the number of gun stores online and brick and mortar, my son nor I need to shop there.
 
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Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
In some cases because they don't want you to buy a gun without putting money in their pocket! Just ask them how many support guns so much they be willing to do transfers for free!


Why should they be required to sell you a gun, "without putting money in their pocket"? Or do a transfer for free? Do you work for free, just because someone else thinks you should?
 
Originally Posted By: ShotGun429
Originally Posted By: MinamiKotaro
I don't like ARs.
I agree, I really dont understand their purpose.


How is this germane?

Start your own anti-AR thread...
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver


I believe your interpretation to be questionable and based on only one side of events by a customer who was perhaps clouded by self-descrihed anger.

The FFL holder thought there was reasonable grounds to prevent the sale and he does this every day of his life.
It is his livelihood.

You just read a form once?

Additionally you have twisted the narrative.

Two people enter a gun shop together. One is legally allowed to purchase a component regulated by Federal Law. The other person is not legally allowed to purchase the component and he has collected ALL the parts necessary to assemble a weapon except this part. There is a discussion between these two people. The individual legally alowed to make the purchase then attempts to make the purchase.

Do you have any understanding of the methods straw purchases have taken place?

Exactly this same manner.

The FFL holder was entirely within his rights.


thumbsup2.gif


Yep. I would have looked online first, and then if I couldn't find the parts THEN go to a local gunsmith/gunshop.
 
Another thing I haven't heard mentioned, is the extremely large problem that's been created recently by straw purchases. This is especially true in the southern border states. With all of the drug cartel activity, straw purchases have become a larger problem than ever before. The whole, "Fast And Furious" debacle was built on straw purchases. Firearms dealers want no part of being accused of this. For any reason. Today it means all but certain loss of an FFL, and criminal charges. We've had a Border Patrol Agent here in Arizona killed with an illegal gun bought through a straw purchase. Because of this the ATF is looking at dealers through a microscope.

This was not the case in the early 90's and before. Today it's one of the biggest problems dealers and the ATF are faced with. And it's most likely going to get a lot worse, before it gets any better. So yes, a lot of dealers are walking on pins and needles in regard to this problem. Be it real, or perceived. And many are gun shy, (no pun intended), as a direct result of it. Along with the pressures the ATF is placing on today's dealers. I personally know of 2 dealers in my area that I have dealt with, who have had to defend themselves in regards to these type of matters, when the ATF came a knocking. That is not a desirable position to be in.
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
So, reviewing form 4473...

OP is obviously not a straw purchaser because he is buying the lower for himself.

Random guy is probably not a straw purchaser, unless he has reason to believe his wife is mentally ill. (No jokes, please.)

I don't see where it says that an FFL needs to run a NICS check on everyone within arm's length of a purchaser, everyone in a purchaser's family, or everyone in the store just in case a prohibited possessor is signaling which guns to buy.

I think we've all run into unpleasant and/or uninformed gun store employees, so I don't know why anyone would question OP.


I believe your interpretation to be questionable and based on only one side of events by a customer who was perhaps clouded by self-descrihed anger.

The FFL holder thought there was reasonable grounds to prevent the sale and he does this every day of his life.
It is his livelihood.

You just read a form once?

Additionally you have twisted the narrative.

Two people enter a gun shop together. One is legally allowed to purchase a component regulated by Federal Law. The other person is not legally allowed to purchase the component and he has collected ALL the parts necessary to assemble a weapon except this part. There is a discussion between these two people. The individual legally alowed to make the purchase then attempts to make the purchase.

Do you have any understanding of the methods straw purchases have taken place?

Exactly this same manner.

The FFL holder was entirely within his rights.



Did I say that I've only read the form once?

Did OP say that they discussed the build at the counter?

Did I say that an FFL doesn't have discretion in this matter?

Did I say that an FFL shouldn't have discretion in this matter?

You're tilting at windmills.
21.gif
 
I'm the e-commerce manager of a gun/military surplus store and I can tell you that if we think anything is fishy about a sale we will stop it. Doesn't matter if it's the cheapest item or most expensive. It's simply not worth the hassle if everything isn't above board.
 
If you were doing straw purchases you certainly aren't going to buy serial numbered lowers to do it with.
Your going to buy whole guns or 80% lowers without any trails and make guns without a paper trail.
Right or wrong the dealer lost customers and that's not something alot of mom and pop gun stores can do.
I can see if we went in there with MS 13 tattoos or Swastika T-shirts on. Not the case.
Just a idiot clerk and manager not wanting to check his idiot clerk so going along with it.
 
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