garage fluorescent tubes slow to start

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I have a luxmeter, a 4ft twin lamp fluorescent shoplight, and a 4ft LED twin lamp shoplight replacement, so I did an experiment. I shut off all other lights in the room other than the one being tested and blocked off the window so there was no external sources of light.

The shoplight with reflector over my workbench has two relatively new F32T8 tubes each rated at 2800 lumens peak, 2660 lumens mean, for a combined output of 5600 lumens peak / 5320 lumens mean. I let the tubes warm up for 15 minutes to stabilize. Shoplight draws 63 watts from the wall. At 3 feet down from the light, dead center, holding sensor at arms length so I don't shade it with my body, I measured 1080 lux.

The 4 foot LED shoplight in the laundry area has two 180 degree emitter strips and is rated at 4000 lumens. It draws 40 watts from the wall. With the same 3 feet below, dead center, arms length measuing method as with the workbench light, I measured 1150 lux.

Hmm...if the LEDs perform WORSE on the light meter tests, where is all that light coming from? I believe the hype because I can see it with my own eyes and instruments.

You could have ten thousand raw lumens from a light source, but if only a tiny fraction of it gets to the right place, so much energy is wasted. For a shoplight, you want all the light projected downward onto the work area, but from a long and diffuse source such as a fluorescent tube or LED strip to reduce glare and shadows. For lighting up a living room, you want light that bounces off walls and ceiling, but you also don't need the same intensity as a workshop.

LED retrofits do encounter problems when the original space was set up for a brighter but less optically efficient light source. In those cases, the retrofitter should but often does not take measures to make up for the lost indirect lighting. However, in cases like this where more light on the work surface is desirable, LED retrofit is a good option.
 
Originally Posted By: Dave9
LED replacements are [censored]! You only have three options to retrofit.

1) Obscenely expensive bulbs to get them properly engineered for enough heatsinking to achieve truthful high lumen ratings.

2) Light output is only 2/3rds (at most) what the fluorescent tube it replaces, produced. There are some marketing lies out there that try to twist this truth (because they know it's true) which state things like reflector losses, trying to pretend that light that is clearly reflected doesn't exist. Truth is, most of the usable light in a room has some % reflection, otherwise annoying dark shadows would be everywhere.

3) Overheats because they tried to get more light out than was possible with long lifespan. They might even tell you the LEDs are rated for 50K hours, which would be true if they were mounted on a good heatsink in a cold laboratory instead of the hot running cheap thing they made.

There are good reasons to switch to LED. Use more fixtures to make up for the light loss then you get faster turn-on, more cold temperature immunity, less risk of hazard from impact and resultant glass breakage. Lifespan if you only run them a few minutes at a time, but efficiency, not so much, LED retrofits have very little difference in efficiency compared to modern T8 tubes on a lumen per watt basis. If you can accept 35% less light then sure, 35% less light will use less power, lol.


A few years ago that was true. The retrofit tubes are fairly decent now. Yes a fixture designed for leds is still better but the gap has closed to the point where the led tubes are good enough. I will have to get the info off the ones I use at work but I am very satisfied with them.
 
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Dave9,
Care to give us a little of your background and how you've developed your opinions?
 
Originally Posted By: KJSmith
Dave9,
Care to give us a little of your background and how you've developed your opinions?


I assumed he was just being sarcastic or something.
 
Originally Posted By: Dave9

I realize this is a lot of information against the huge amount of lies, deceit, and marketing nonsense to pimp LEDs. It will take a while to research this and realize that I already have.


Why are you arguing so aggressively with someone happy with their product?

I feel my T8 flourescent bulbs were running below optimum, perhaps due to running cold, perhaps because of a layer of dust and eventual phosphor degradation. Replacing them with a new set running optimally might gain a %, but not an order of magnitude.

Got some LED tubes and am happy.

Garage is typical roof-truss construction with little ceiling to reflect overhead light. Did put fixtures in a "E" pattern so the light falls between the bays, and beside the cars, not on top of the cars' roofs.

My concrete floor is a nice light grey and my lights are so bright they reflect up off this grey and onto my cars' undercarriages.
 
there is more to lighting than just lumens!!! color temp is one as 5000 kelvin is more like daylight + 5600K even more so but said to produce more glare. CRI color rendering index, higher is better as objects are clear + sharper. like watery XXW20 oils LEDS are being pushed to save electricity BUT they are BAD for your EYES. from reading AGAIN LED's will damage EYESIGHT, surely NOT GOOD
 
You can try removing the fluorescent tubes from their fixture and cleaning the outside glass with glass cleaner. Dry with another paper towel thoroughly. Put back in fixture. I don't know why it works but it's worked a few times for me.
 
why do there seem to be no name brand companies making 4 ft led shop tube lights (for garage) most of the amazon stuff is inknown branded

and seen any pix of CFL bulb fires? I took them out of my house
 
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
why do there seem to be no name brand companies making 4 ft led shop tube lights (for garage) most of the amazon stuff is inknown branded

and seen any pix of CFL bulb fires? I took them out of my house



It seems most electrical stuff is made in China now.
All the name brands sell them. The ones I currently like are 18w GE's.
 
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
seen any pix of CFL bulb fires? I took them out of my house


We HAD a CFL fire at our house. Thankfully it was in a utility room with a fireproof ceiling and it self extinguished, but it really made a stink.

The problem is they are made at such a cheap price point that there is no provision for a safe end of life. The electronics will continue forcing a failing tube to run until the tube glass cracks from thermal shock, or one of the electronic components burns out. Sometimes the component burning up or the red-hot glass can ignite the plastic enclosure. It should be fire retardant, but you never know when they are sold for 89 cents a pop.

LEDs don't involve high temps, high voltage, glass, or mercury. For the most part they fail gracefully without letting out any magic smoke.
 
and do you break in fluorescent bulbs- this is from part of an OSRAM pdf that I could not link to.

Stabilising fluorescent lamps
To meet the electrical and photometric requirements, all fluorescent lamps have to be
aged/operated for 100 hours according to lEG 60081 (double capped fluorescent lamps) and
lEG 60901 (single capped fluorescent lamps). This is necessary to stabilise the lamp operation
and get the emitter material on the electrodes into its final shape.
Fluorescent lamps operated with dimmable electronic control gear must always be stabilised at
full (100%) light output. Intermittent operation at fulliight output is acceptable to reach the 100
hours criteria.
Insufficient aging can result in flickering and early blackening which finally yields to reduced Iife
of the lamps.
1. Recommendation für new installations:
We recommend to operate all lamps during the construction phase at the building site, at full
output and NOT in dimmed mode. Under these conditions the electrodes will be stabilised at
the time of hand over to the final user.
Especially in light ceilings or light fittings, in which the fluorescent lamps are not visible directly,
stabilising the lamp for 100 hours is highly recommended.
 
Originally Posted By: Dave9
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I purchased some ballast bypass "Hyperikon" brand 4 foot bulbs from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Hyperikon-Compati...+hyperikon+4000

Quite simply, the light is fantastic. It's directional so it does not light up the ceiling as much as the originals.


That makes no sense. There is no properly designed fluorescent tube housing that lights up the ceiling more. However, and this is the ironic part, I'd rather have the higher lumen fluorescent tubes casting some light onto the ceiling which diffuses it for even lighting, than just straight down glare and shadows from lower light output LED tubes.

It's okay to have buyer's remorse, to accept that marketing tricked a lot of people, not only you.


Quote:
But the light on the workbench and cars is 200% brighter and really a pleasure to work under. Plus they are low glare from an angle, so they are pleasant. Absolutely 5 stars!


No, absolutely backwards. The light is far dimmer, factually speaking this is science and there are decades established ways of measuring light.

You wrote "low glare from an angle" and that's the irony, that what little light they produce only seems brighter because it's a colder color temperature that blinds the human eye more than providing useful light. If you have to have it at an angle to reduce glare, which also further reduces MCD intensity, all you're left with is the impression they're bright based on your eyes seeing worse, which is quite opposite of the goal.

I realize this is a lot of information against the huge amount of lies, deceit, and marketing nonsense to pimp LEDs. It will take a while to research this and realize that I already have.

They measure lower on a light meter but even worse, that lower reading doesn't take into account the human eye's sensitivity to light spectrumm, what is useful and what is noise that prevents sensory perception.



Wrong. When properly chosen, high output LED's outperform conventional fluorescent tubes. We've had phenomenal results using LED's in aircraft hangars. With considerably more lux where it's needed. The bulbs I linked above concentrate 2200 lumens in a 110 degree beam area. Contrasted with 3000 lumens @360 degrees. Quite simply the ones I linked above are brighter, at over 500-600 lux at the workbench, vs no more than 350 for the T8's they replaced.

PERIOD.
 
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I agree with the science behind what Dave9 is saying, but to the naked eye of the average person, I do believe retrofit/replacement T8 LED tubes do a better job in terms of lighting in about every way possible than a present day T8 or T12 fluorescent tube.

The reason behind my opinion here is the "quality" of today's T8 or T12 fluorescent tubes are downright HORRIBLE and a far cry from what you could get years ago. You can find higher dollar quality lamps, but it's becoming more difficult as time goes on.

Today's fluorescent lamps, especially T12s won't last even a percentage of the time old lamps would last, plus their color/temp/rendering is horrible. Point is, there's no comparing today's fluorescents with today's LEDs.
 
PROBLEM WITH RETROFIT TUBES IS THAT most STILL USE THE EXISTING BALLAST -the GE retro tubes I saw in Lowes had a link on the box (not much good in a store) that was called ballast compatibility.

so real choices are replace the bulbs with old style fluorescents tubes
or replace the whole fixture with a led fixture, and junk the ballast.contailing fixture.
I just bought some ge old style tubes from wal mart $4 each , give LEDs a little longer - the CFL fires told me maybe new is not better, til its tested for a while. Garage lights are not on very much.
what will come out next after led? incadescent , halogen, cfl, led, . cfl I thought was a loser.
the industry does that to us with TVs, since the late 50s, all new every few years.
 
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The best idea is the LED tubes that require them to bypass the ballast all together. 120v, simple wiring. If your fixture has the magnetic old style ballast this is definitely the best thing to do as these are energy hogs. Electronic ballast uses much less electricity but when they fail the ballast cost more than the fixture.

Where I buy mine they are $4 more than the ones used with a ballast.
 
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
PROBLEM WITH RETROFIT TUBES IS THAT most STILL USE THE EXISTING BALLAST -the GE retro tubes I saw in Lowes had a link on the box (not much good in a store) that was called ballast compatibility.



Its not a problem, its what the market place calls for.
Commercial users want the easy retrofit and consistency of using current T8 ballast.
 
Originally Posted By: KJSmith
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
PROBLEM WITH RETROFIT TUBES IS THAT most STILL USE THE EXISTING BALLAST -the GE retro tubes I saw in Lowes had a link on the box (not much good in a store) that was called ballast compatibility.



Its not a problem, its what the market place calls for.
Commercial users want the easy retrofit and consistency of using current T8 ballast.



seems when the light wont work, the question will be the same as it is with todays fluorescents- is it the bulb or the ballast?
seems anything without a ballast is better?
 
LED lights have drivers built into them... My understanding is the LED should never fail, but the driver will. Probably why they are built in.

So, what we are discussing is if the driver is powered by house power or a ballast.

Removing the ballast is fine.... its also possible that a ballast offers a little protection/isolation from spikes. (Half my sites have gen sets as back up).

In a commercial application, where we have already spent lots of money converting to T8 ballast, its cheaper to go with the ballast powered ones. Simple change out.
For the sake of consistency, we continue to change T12 ballast to T8 ballast.

FWIW in a lot of applications an old magnetic ballast will last 20yrs. ( date is stamped on back).
A new electronic ballast is *supposed* to have twice the life (something I question).

4" LED's come in lots of variety's.
120/277v, Ballast driven, and separate driver (I have never seen the last one in person).
Some are powered hot on one end, neutral on the other. Some have the hot and neutral on the same end.
They also come in wattages typically 15- 18watt.
And different color temp. ranges.
Clear or frosted lens.
Also varied excepted life.

There is a lot to filter through.


At work, I typically order a ballast driven, cool white, 18 watt, frosted lens lamp with a 76000 hr life.

Despite what else you may have read here, they far outperform a fluorescent T8 tube ( 25000 hr life).


At home, I would get the highest wattage, cool white, frosted lens, 120 volt lamp I could find.


On Edit:
I have seen LED's with separate drivers, but they were not the traditional tube type replacement.
 
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