Turning Fluorescent Lights On & Off ??

[billt460]

I just replaced 2, 4' double fluorescent light fixtures in my kitchen. They were 30 years old and the ballast were going. The new ones are nice and bright. I have heard arguments on both sides of this, so I'm hoping some of you guys who are better versed in electricity than I, can chime in.

Are you better off leaving fluorescent lights on for long periods, instead of turning them on and off all day, everytime you enter or exit the room? I'm not so much concerned about saving electricity, as I am about wear and tear on the ballast and bulbs.

The entire 4' fluorescent fixtures are the same cost to purchase, as just the ballast is. And both are a PITA to change out in my kitchen. Because they are recessed, and covered by plastic lens diffusers. I was always under the impression that it's harder on the ballast to constantly be turning them on and off, than it is to simply leave them on.

But as I said, I've heard arguments both ways. I just don't know which is true..... Or if it even matters anymore. I know years ago the older fluorescent fixtures had starters. (They looked like a big silver M-80). They would sit near the ends of the tube, and they would sometimes burn out, and have to be replaced. But the newer fixtures are all self starting.

One thing I noticed on the new fixtures I bought, is the ballasts themselves are much smaller than some of the older models from 30 years ago. The bad units I removed had HUGE ballasts in comparison. What say you guys?

 

[Taildragger]

Probably should have used the opportunity to switch to LED, just say'in.

 

[MasterSolenoid]

I can't answer your question, but what I did was:

I replaced the double 4 ft fluorescent tubes in my basement with LED's.

I believe there are two types of LED's sold.
1) Turn ON/OFF using the ballist.
2) Rewire the fixture and bypass the ballast.

 

[billt460]

Probably should have used the opportunity to switch to LED, just say'in.

The LED fixtures they had didn't have a lot of lumens, compared to the florescent models with high lumen daylight bulbs. They were also quite a bit more.

 

[billt460]

I can't answer your question, but what I did was:

I replaced the double 4 ft fluorescent tubes in my basement with LED's.

I believe there are two types of LED's sold.
1) Turn ON/OFF using the ballist.
2) Rewire the fixture and bypass the ballast.

I replaced the florescent bulbs in my other house with "plug & play" LED Bulbs. They were OK, but they were not as bright.

 

[dadto2]

Turning on fluorescent bulbs is what wears them out. I've read that a good rule of thumb is that if you will turn them on again in less than 15 minutes, it's better to just leave them on.

LED don't have wear on startup, just time of use. So turn the LEDs on and off as needed. They just eventually start to dim after so many hundreds or thousands of hours of use.

 

[JTK]

Like you say, way back in the day with magnetic ballasts w/ starters and well built fluorescent tubes, not cycling them on/off would probably save the starters.

Nowadays with cheap chinesium electronic ballasts and very cheaply made fluorescent tubes, it makes no difference. One of these ballasts may fail in 2 months, or they may last 5yrs. The bulbs are hit/miss way worse than that today.

IMO, you should have kept what you had. Guaranteed those 30yr/old ballasts were better built than anything you can get today.

Fluorescent lamps are junk today as well. Old school ones would last years of constant use.

Replacement T12 and T8 lamps we use at work for what ever hasn't been converted to LED will fail sometimes in a matter of weeks.

I'm assuming since you say the light output is way better now because you switched from T12 lamps to T8? T8's are the thinner tubes.

 

[billt460]

I'm assuming since you say the light output is way better now because you switched from T12 lamps to T8? T8's are the thinner tubes.

I've read that a good rule of thumb is that if you will turn them on again in less than 15 minutes, it's better to just leave them on.

Yes, the new fixtures take the thinner T-8 bulbs, and they are much brighter. My old ballasts were shot. They took a long time to start, then they would flicker until they warmed up. Finally they wouldn't even turn on even with new tubes.

So I just gave up and replaced both of them. I agree with the "15 minute rule". I usually keep them on for at least that long. We're in and out of the kitchen several times a day, so I've been leaving them on unless we go somewhere. We'll see just how long they last.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Turning any (cheap, residential) lighting fixture on and off frequently will cause very short-lived elements.

Ever study how older women, usually who live alone, won't turn many lights on in their home? Ask them - they will all tell you that they don't want to change the light bulbs. That means they can't generally change the ceiling fixtures and they have to call someone.

They think they all "go out" a lot and that leaving an LED fixture on still costs "a lot of money to have lights on". They've always thought that lighting a home costs a fortune, so they always turned lights on and off frequently. Thus, causing short-lived lighting and the need to change the bulbs frequently.

 

[JTK]

Yes, the new fixtures take the thinner T-8 bulbs, and they are much brighter. My old ballasts were shot. They took a long time to start, then they would flicker until they warmed up. Finally they wouldn't even turn on even with new tubes.

So I just gave up and replaced both of them. I agree with the "15 minute rule". I usually keep them on for at least that long. We're in and out of the kitchen several times a day, so I've been leaving them on unless we go somewhere. We'll see just how long they last.

Yep, T8s give off more light and consume less watts than the old T12s, you're ahead already IMO. You can buy decent quality "kitchen/bath" ~6500K range T8 fluorescent tubes from home/hardware stores that should last years.

IMO, ~30yr/old ballasts were built to fire up fluorescent tubes from 30yrs ago, not the junk made today.

I retrofitted a bunch of late 80's to mid 1990's T12 twin tube 4ft shop light fixtures in my basement to LED about 2yrs ago with no-name mail order LED tubes. These retrofits required removing the ballasts. I've lost at least half of the LED retrofit tubes at this point. The drivers burn out on them. Better quality name brand LED retrofits are so much $ these days, you're better off just getting a whole new LED fixture.

 

[PandaBear]

This is only my own observation, so take it with a grain of salt. The older ballast with replaceable starter doesn't last that long and you keep having to replace those starters once in a while. The one without replaceable starter, magnetic ballast still, has a hum that I dislike, those lasted me about 20 years or so easily (the ballast, not the tube, the tube only last about 2 years), at about 80% efficiency I heard, so over time it does waste a lot of money. The electronic ballast I heard doesn't last as long but at work they seems to last quite a while, maybe because they are better grade or maybe the fixture has better cooling? Those supposedly are 90% or so efficient and that saves you some more money.

About 8 years ago I replace my 4 4' tubes in the kitchen with some cheap Chinese noname brand direct wire LED, and splice / cut the ballast out and toss them. The work probably took me 30 mins max, and the tube is slightly more (like $15-20 each tube, forgot), lasted me about 5 years before 1 started flickering and then another. I started looking for deals when that happens and found some open box better brand (forgot it, but it is US based company with better reputation over the years), come with heatsink, etc for about the same price. I replaced them and kept the 2 remaining working chinese stuff as backups.

The LEDs are way brighter despite the same lumen rating, if I believe the rating they are about 1/2 power as the fluorescent tube, but since they are brighter I removed 1 tube and it is another 1/4 more efficient for the same output. So I guess it is now 3/8 the energy used as before? Most importantly it got rid of the annoying magnetic ballast hum.

 

[2005jettatdi]

I have been systematically replacing fluorescent fixtures with direct wire led tubes. Not hot ballast, longer lasting, faster to light up and you can turn them off and on.

 

[PimTac]

I replaced the florescent bulbs in my other house with "plug & play" LED Bulbs. They were OK, but they were not as bright.

The brightness depends on the kind of LED and the quality. I have LED bulbs in my house that replaced the old CFL ones and I can tell the cheaper ones are not as bright as I would like. The last time I bought a bulb I purchased a Satco brand and that one is very nice and bright.

The fluorescent bulbs have a flicker that is annoying.

Someone here with more knowledge on this subject can recommend the types of LED bulbs and the lumens needed etc.

 

[billt460]

Just to provide a little reference on why I wasn't so keen on LED tubes. The top link are the LED "plug & play" bulbs I installed in my other house. They only provided 1,800 lumens on 18 watts each.

The bottom link are the T-8 tubes I have presently installed in my new fluorescent fixtures. They're standard GE T-8 tubes, that provive 2,900 lumens each on 32 watts each. These also offer a much brighter, blue white light. (6,500K vs. 5,000K for the LED's).

Multiplying this out times 4 bulbs, the fluorescents are giving me a total of 11,600 lumens, with a total consumption of 128 watts. Compared to the LED's with only 7,200 lumens at 72 watts.

So while you are "saving" 56 watts, you're doing it with 4,400 less lumens of light. That's a substantial difference. I could tell immediately when I swapped them out in my other place. The entire kitchen was noticeably darker.

I'm sure someone somewhere either makes a brighter LED, or else soon will. (This stuff is always improving). But as Panda Bear mentioned, all of this crap is Chi-Com these days. And many of these LED's don't last anywhere near their claimed hours or years of life expectancy. So after going through all this, you end up with 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

In a nutshell, while these LED tubes have come a long way, and are getting cheaper, I just didn't see anything to gain by going with them again. Perhaps in years to come they will offer a substantial improvement, (like many of the screw in LED's now do when compared to the old incandescent and CFL bulbs of just a few decades ago).

Feit Plug & Play T8 Daylight 47.7 in. Bi-Pin Linear LED Bulb 32 Watt Equivalence 2 pk - Ace Hardware

Convert your existing fluorescent fixture to LED technology with the Feit Electric T848/850/LEDG2/2 4ft. T8/T12 LED Plug and Play 2-pack lamps. These 5000K Natural Daylight non-dimmable tubes produce a similar fluorescent lamp output (1800 lumens), using only 18 watts of electricity - up to 44...

www.acehardware.com

https://www.lowes.com/pd/GE-32-Watt-48-in-Medium-Bi-pin-T8-6500-K-Daylight-Fluorescent-Light-Bulb-2-Pack/5001923155

 

[Skippy722]

Just to provide a little reference on why I wasn't so keen on LED tubes. The top link are the LED "plug & play" bulbs I installed in my other house. They only provided 1,800 lumens on 18 watts each.

The bottom link are the T-8 tubes I have presently installed in my new fluorescent fixtures. They're standard GE T-8 tubes, that provive 2,900 lumens each on 32 watts each. These also offer a much brighter, blue white light. (6,500K vs. 5,000K for the LED's).

Multiplying this out times 4 bulbs, the fluorescents are giving me a total of 11,600 lumens, with a total consumption of 128 watts. Compared to the LED's with only 7,200 lumens at 72 watts.

So while you are "saving" 56 watts, you're doing it with 4,400 less lumens of light. That's a substantial difference. I could tell immediately when I swapped them out in my other place. The entire kitchen was noticeably darker.

I'm sure someone somewhere either makes a brighter LED, or else soon will. (This stuff is always improving). But as Panda Bear mentioned, all of this crap is Chi-Com these days. And many of these LED's don't last anywhere near their claimed hours or years of life expectancy. So after going through all this, you end up with 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

In a nutshell, while these LED tubes have come a long way, and are getting cheaper, I just didn't see anything to gain by going with them again. Perhaps in years to come they will offer a substantial improvement, (like many of the screw in LED's now do when compared to the old incandescent and CFL bulbs of just a few decades ago).

Feit Plug & Play T8 Daylight 47.7 in. Bi-Pin Linear LED Bulb 32 Watt Equivalence 2 pk - Ace Hardware

Convert your existing fluorescent fixture to LED technology with the Feit Electric T848/850/LEDG2/2 4ft. T8/T12 LED Plug and Play 2-pack lamps. These 5000K Natural Daylight non-dimmable tubes produce a similar fluorescent lamp output (1800 lumens), using only 18 watts of electricity - up to 44...

www.acehardware.com

https://www.lowes.com/pd/GE-32-Watt-48-in-Medium-Bi-pin-T8-6500-K-Daylight-Fluorescent-Light-Bulb-2-Pack/5001923155

You’d want the “High Output” version, 4,000 lumens per bulb. My employer recently switched out all the fluorescent bulbs for direct wire LED’s and it was noticeably brighter in the shop.

 

[JTK]

It's tough to find ballast bypass 48" LED tubes in stores. Of course you can get them online, but geez.. ~$40 for just a pair of 48" tubes of unknown quality, like everything in this realm today?

Everything I see now is "plug-n-play", leave the energy zapping buzz box / heater in place. I'm sure this is partly done to sway the average consumer from playing electrician and suing.

 

[billt460]

It's tough to find ballast bypass 48" LED tubes in stores. Of course you can get them online, but geez.. ~$40 for just a pair of 48" tubes of unknown quality, like everything in this realm today?

Everything I see now is "plug-n-play", leave the energy zapping buzz box / heater in place. I'm sure this is partly done to sway the average consumer from playing electrician and suing.

I agree. I also get tired for hunting for this crap. As you said it's both expensive, and of unknown quality. My entire 3 car, 1,000 sq. ft. garage is illuminated by LED lighting. From 1700 lumen screw in bulbs, to double and quad tube linkable 4 foot LED fixtures. I even have one of those "folding petal" infomercial screw in LED's. And it actually works very well. I have it positioned over 2 of my loading benches.

I don't know if I'm saving any money by having so many LED's. I really don't care. I went with them to have as much illumination as possible. I'm finding the older I get, the brighter I like to have it.

I have never been inside a garage where I had to ask someone, "Would you mind turning off some of these lights. I can see too much because it's just too bright!"....... On the other hand I've worked in many garages where I had to struggle to see anything.

Having so many LED's affords me the maximum amount of lumens, without tripping the breaker...... Unless I've got everything lit up, and my air compressor kicks in.

 

[JTK]

LEDs are awesome in an unheated garage. I have a mix of LEDs and a single cold weather rated T8 fixture in my garage and that T8 still takes time to get to full brightness in the cold and sometimes never really gets there depending on how cold it is. LEDs happily fire right up to full brightness.

 

[tblt44]

You got 30 years on your old ones,
Don't change anything

 

[Leo99]

LEDs are awesome in an unheated garage. I have a mix of LEDs and a single cold weather rated T8 fixture in my garage and that T8 still takes time to get to full brightness in the cold and sometimes never really gets there depending on how cold it is. LEDs happily fire right up to full brightness.

Man, I hate that flicker and finally trashed the fluorescent fixtures in my garage and replaced with LED fixtures. So much better. I have one fluorescent fixture in the house in our walk in closet that was acting up yesterday. If it acts up again it's getting replaced.